4 ms·

Yeah, now we can have Electron apps compiled to WASM running in virtual browser instances hosted remotely in the server with feeds sent back via H.264 streams t

by api 5y ago

Yeah, now we can have Electron apps compiled to WASM running in virtual browser instances hosted remotely in the server with feeds sent back via H.264 streams that then have to be decoded by a local browser instance to be rendered to...

choeger 5y ago
... fill a spreadsheet.
AussieWog93 5y ago
I know this is a meme, but back in around 2012 or so, one of my grandpa's friends pulled out a Windows 2000 laptop and loaded up a spreadsheet in Excel 2000. I was blown away by how snappy and responsive the whole experience was compared to the then-not-bad Core2 Duo Grandpa had in his machine, running Windows 7 and Office 2010.
- VortexDream 5y ago
  Honestly, it doesn't feel like personal computing has improved much at all. I remember using Windows 2000. Run it on an SSD and it flies (tried it recently). Yet I can't identify anything that W10 does better (for me) than W2000 that justifies its sluggishness on a C2D.
  - kilburn 5y ago
    While it is true that older software is extremely snappy if you compare it with what we use today, it is not that hard to find examples where we have come a long way. Off the top of my head: - You can mix chinese and russian characters in a document [pervasive use and support for unicode] - Your computer won't get zombified minutes after you connect it to the internet [lots of security improvements] - You can connect a random usb thingy with a much much lower probability of your computer getting instantly owned [driver isolation] - You can use wifi with some reliability [more complex, stable and faster communication protocols] - You can have a trackpad that doesn't suck [commodization of non-trivial algorithms/techniques that did not exist back then] - Files won't get corrupted time and again at every power failure [lots of stability improvements] Whether all of the above could be achieved with the _very performance oriented_ techniques and approaches that used to be common in older software is debatable at least. In any case, a lot of the slowness we pay for toady is in exchange of actually being able to deal with the complexities necessary to achieve those things in reasonable time/cost.
    - bruce343434 5y ago
      > - You can have a trackpad that doesn't suck Go on...
    - dmitriid 5y ago
      > In any case, a lot of the slowness we pay for toady is in exchange of actually being able to deal with the complexities necessary to achieve those things in reasonable time/cost. This is also debatable at least. Just a few weeks ago it turned out that the new Windows Terminal can only do color output at 2fps [1]. The very infuriating discussion in the GitHub tracker ended up with a Microsoft tea member saying that you need a " an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation" to do colored output. I kid you not. [2] Of course, the entire "doctoral research" is 82 lines of code [3]. There will be a continuation of the saga [4] And that is just a very small, but a very representative example. But do watch Casey's rant about MS Visual Studio [5] You can see this everywhere. My personal anecdote is this: With the introduction of new M1 macs Apple put it front and center that now Macs wake up instantly. For reference: in 2008 I had the exactly same behaviour on a 2007 Macbook Pro. In the thirteen years since the software has become so bad, that you need a processor that's anywhere from 3 to 15 times more powerful to barely, just barely, do the same thing [6]. The upcoming Windows 11 will require 4GB of RAM and 64GB of storage space just for the empty, barebones operating system alone [7]. Why? No "wifi works reliably" or "trackpad doesn't suck" can justify any of this. [1] https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1401761848022560771 https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1401761848022560771 [2] https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomment-862844333 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomm... [3] https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1405356794495442945 https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1405356794495442945 [4] https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1406755159347130371 https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1406755159347130371 [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U [6] https://gadgetversus.com/processor/apple-m1-vs-intel-core-2-duo/ https://gadgetversus.com/processor/apple-m1-vs-intel-core-2-... [7] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica...
      - dmitriid 5y ago
  - PragmaticPulp 5y ago
    > Yet I can't identify anything that W10 does better (for me) than W2000 that justifies its sluggishness on a C2D. Core 2 Duo was introduced 15 years ago (2006). Almost a decade before Windows 10 was released. Windows 10, and all modern operating systems, are designed around the availability of modern GPUs. If you try running it on an ancient machine without modern graphics acceleration and without enough CPU power to handle it in software, it's going to feel sluggish. Windows 10 is perfectly fine and snappy on every machine I've used it on in recent history.
    - hashhar 5y ago
      Hardware getting 100x faster isn't a good reason to make your software 100x slower so that the user-experience feels the same as from 20 years ago.
  - speedgoose 5y ago
    Have you tried to do heavy computing on an old windows? In my experience the multi-tasking under load is so bad that you can't really use the machine while it's busy. And then you can also think about the security improvements.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      The multitasking is just as bad on modern Windows, tbh. Given reasonably up-to-date hardware, a lightweight Linux install really can be as snappy as Windows 2000 was back in the day, and that's with a lot of security and usability improvements.
      - speedgoose 5y ago
        My windows 10 laptops can redraw the mouse cursor and windows without much issues when it's rendering a video using all the cpu cores for example.
    - VortexDream 5y ago
      I genuinely don't think modern OS's are any better at multitasking with heavy loads. Particularly Linux and Windows are terrible at heavy mtitasking loads, at least as a software developer working with both environments. I also don't see why the security improvements lead to such a massive decrease in performance.
  - api 5y ago
    It spies on you and monetizes you better.

by api 5y ago

choeger 5y ago

... fill a spreadsheet.

AussieWog93 5y ago

I know this is a meme, but back in around 2012 or so, one of my grandpa's friends pulled out a Windows 2000 laptop and loaded up a spreadsheet in Excel 2000. I was blown away by how snappy and responsive the whole experience was compared to the then-not-bad Core2 Duo Grandpa had in his machine, running Windows 7 and Office 2010.

VortexDream 5y ago
Honestly, it doesn't feel like personal computing has improved much at all. I remember using Windows 2000. Run it on an SSD and it flies (tried it recently). Yet I can't identify anything that W10 does better (for me) than W2000 that justifies its sluggishness on a C2D.
- kilburn 5y ago
  While it is true that older software is extremely snappy if you compare it with what we use today, it is not that hard to find examples where we have come a long way. Off the top of my head: - You can mix chinese and russian characters in a document [pervasive use and support for unicode] - Your computer won't get zombified minutes after you connect it to the internet [lots of security improvements] - You can connect a random usb thingy with a much much lower probability of your computer getting instantly owned [driver isolation] - You can use wifi with some reliability [more complex, stable and faster communication protocols] - You can have a trackpad that doesn't suck [commodization of non-trivial algorithms/techniques that did not exist back then] - Files won't get corrupted time and again at every power failure [lots of stability improvements] Whether all of the above could be achieved with the _very performance oriented_ techniques and approaches that used to be common in older software is debatable at least. In any case, a lot of the slowness we pay for toady is in exchange of actually being able to deal with the complexities necessary to achieve those things in reasonable time/cost.
  - bruce343434 5y ago
    > - You can have a trackpad that doesn't suck Go on...
  - dmitriid 5y ago
    > In any case, a lot of the slowness we pay for toady is in exchange of actually being able to deal with the complexities necessary to achieve those things in reasonable time/cost. This is also debatable at least. Just a few weeks ago it turned out that the new Windows Terminal can only do color output at 2fps [1]. The very infuriating discussion in the GitHub tracker ended up with a Microsoft tea member saying that you need a " an entire doctoral research project in performant terminal emulation" to do colored output. I kid you not. [2] Of course, the entire "doctoral research" is 82 lines of code [3]. There will be a continuation of the saga [4] And that is just a very small, but a very representative example. But do watch Casey's rant about MS Visual Studio [5] You can see this everywhere. My personal anecdote is this: With the introduction of new M1 macs Apple put it front and center that now Macs wake up instantly. For reference: in 2008 I had the exactly same behaviour on a 2007 Macbook Pro. In the thirteen years since the software has become so bad, that you need a processor that's anywhere from 3 to 15 times more powerful to barely, just barely, do the same thing [6]. The upcoming Windows 11 will require 4GB of RAM and 64GB of storage space just for the empty, barebones operating system alone [7]. Why? No "wifi works reliably" or "trackpad doesn't suck" can justify any of this. [1] https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1401761848022560771 https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1401761848022560771 [2] https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomment-862844333 https://github.com/microsoft/terminal/issues/10362#issuecomm... [3] https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1405356794495442945 https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1405356794495442945 [4] https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1406755159347130371 https://twitter.com/cmuratori/status/1406755159347130371 [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GC-0tCy4P1U [6] https://gadgetversus.com/processor/apple-m1-vs-intel-core-2-duo/ https://gadgetversus.com/processor/apple-m1-vs-intel-core-2-... [7] https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifications https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/windows-11-specifica...
    - dmitriid 5y ago
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > Yet I can't identify anything that W10 does better (for me) than W2000 that justifies its sluggishness on a C2D. Core 2 Duo was introduced 15 years ago (2006). Almost a decade before Windows 10 was released. Windows 10, and all modern operating systems, are designed around the availability of modern GPUs. If you try running it on an ancient machine without modern graphics acceleration and without enough CPU power to handle it in software, it's going to feel sluggish. Windows 10 is perfectly fine and snappy on every machine I've used it on in recent history.
  - hashhar 5y ago
    Hardware getting 100x faster isn't a good reason to make your software 100x slower so that the user-experience feels the same as from 20 years ago.
- speedgoose 5y ago
  Have you tried to do heavy computing on an old windows? In my experience the multi-tasking under load is so bad that you can't really use the machine while it's busy. And then you can also think about the security improvements.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    The multitasking is just as bad on modern Windows, tbh. Given reasonably up-to-date hardware, a lightweight Linux install really can be as snappy as Windows 2000 was back in the day, and that's with a lot of security and usability improvements.
    - speedgoose 5y ago
      My windows 10 laptops can redraw the mouse cursor and windows without much issues when it's rendering a video using all the cpu cores for example.
  - VortexDream 5y ago
    I genuinely don't think modern OS's are any better at multitasking with heavy loads. Particularly Linux and Windows are terrible at heavy mtitasking loads, at least as a software developer working with both environments. I also don't see why the security improvements lead to such a massive decrease in performance.
- api 5y ago
  It spies on you and monetizes you better.