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Maybe it's trying to make a horrible shitty situation a little less bad. There was zero right answer in this war. We don't have some corrupt cabal of leaders i

Maybe it's trying to make a horrible shitty situation a little less bad. There was zero right answer in this war. We don't have some corrupt cabal of leaders in our government and military. I can't recall a single American that didn't want to go into there after 911. Our soldiers have been stuck there putting their lives on the line to keep the house of cards from falling down. This power vacuum will disappear with another incredibly violent war after we leave. There will be zero way for the current government to maintain control. I don't see how it could possibly avoid becoming an isis like state that will lash out with more terrorism and I'm afraid this won't be the last time American boots will be in country.

pjc50 5y ago
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_pr... Largest anti war protests in history. > We don't have some corrupt cabal of leaders in our government and military You have patriots, who are far more dangerous because they believe they're doing the right thing. And a certain amount of cabal willing to lie about how much of a threat Iraq was. The only winning move is not to play. -- Wargames, 1983
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  >Largest anti war protests in history. For the Iraq war. The Afghanistan war had very little resistance as things like the Congressional approval happened on September 14th giving the military a blank check to "capture the criminals."
- bostonsre 5y ago
  I was talking about Afghanistan, but it's a similar situation in Iraq. The justification for the Iraq war is bs, but the situation in both countries is similar right now. There are weak governments that were allies that we are hanging out to dry. Our soldiers feel horrible about leaving the people they fought besides to die from the onslaught that is coming. The enemy is battle hardened and without mercy. I feel horrible for all involved but it seems like it will be worse in Afghanistan. I can't imagine being a father to a daughter who wanted a bright future for their child right now. They have at most, one year of schooling left before those schools are snubbed out harshly. Our previous allies that fought along side our soldiers have an even more grim future. There will be a stasi like hunt and subsequent execution of thousands for those that helped us. What would you do when you fought alongside people that became your brothers? Would you betray them and abandon them to this horrible fate? It's easy to call them useful idiots sitting thousands of miles away and safe. They are not dumb, they see the reality on the ground that we are not privy to. At the same time, our soldiers are dieing. It's ugly whatever route we take and I don't know the least horrible decision that should be made.
throwanem 5y ago
> I can't recall a single American that didn't want to go into there after 911. You must not have been paying attention. There were a hell of a lot of us, and we weren't quiet. Or wrong. > I'm afraid this won't be the last time American boots will be in country. Oh, of course not. We'll have left behind whole shipping containers full of the things.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  That's not really true. It was very true about Iraq, but almost nobody (I assume there are a couple quakers out there somewhere) was against the action in Afghanistan. The Taliban were widely recognized as the absolute worst, and sheltering Bin Laden was just icing on the cake. This was a close to national unity as anything will ever be.
  - herbst 5y ago
    I don't know about America. But back then we had huge demonstrations every weekend in Austria trying to get attention from the US government to rethink their action. The public, here in central Europe, was and still is mainly against the US invading countries for their own means. (This is actually part of the reason so many of my generation learned to hate America for their actions in a early age)
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      Those were very likely for the Iraq war. The Afghanistan war happened too quickly to garner any major opposition, and though there was some opposition I'm not seeing four weeks of huge Austrian demonstrations listed on Wikipedia at least. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Af... And I feel like holding massive anti-US protests in the weeks after 9/11 would have been a huge talking point in the last twenty years.
      - herbst 5y ago
        Anti-Iraq was even bigger for sure. And I am not sure they happened directly after 9/11 or only months later. But the sentiment was obvious, many people do still not believe the official narrative and can't excuse starting a war for a wrong narrative. Pretty sure demos startet after the first related WikiLeaks leaks? On a side note I would be surprised if Wikipedia had a line for a few hundred young lefties demonstrating in a basically forgotten country like austria. When I say huge, I mean relatively, Austria ain't big. But there should be Media and pics somewhere I guess.
Zababa 5y ago
Genuine question: are there any concrete proofs that the intervention reduced terrorism? Not that their absence would prove the opposite of course, but do we have any hard data or something?
- austincheney 5y ago
  That’s complicated. The Taliban were also generally opposed to terrorism, though they define terrorism a bit differently given their extreme social positions. This resulted in a large rift between the Taliban and Al Qaeda. You could better answer the question yourself with a study of recent history in the region.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  Fairly sure the intervention predated an increase in terrorist acts both locally and internationally. Whether those are related or not is hard to show.
- bostonsre 5y ago
  It's an ugly complicated mess of a war that will more than likely go on long past our lives. It is highly debatable and probably unknowable if it was the right call in the long run. But I'd have to assume the war kept the terrorists busy at least for a little while. They also more than likely would not have stopped if we made no response.
trasz 5y ago
Kind of telling that you’re mentioning some dollars lost, and soldiers losing their lives, and completely ignore the victims of the war.

pjc50 5y ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_protests https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/15_February_2003_anti-war_pr... Largest anti war protests in history. > We don't have some corrupt cabal of leaders in our government and military You have patriots, who are far more dangerous because they believe they're doing the right thing. And a certain amount of cabal willing to lie about how much of a threat Iraq was. The only winning move is not to play. -- Wargames, 1983

boomboomsubban 5y ago
>Largest anti war protests in history. For the Iraq war. The Afghanistan war had very little resistance as things like the Congressional approval happened on September 14th giving the military a blank check to "capture the criminals."
bostonsre 5y ago
I was talking about Afghanistan, but it's a similar situation in Iraq. The justification for the Iraq war is bs, but the situation in both countries is similar right now. There are weak governments that were allies that we are hanging out to dry. Our soldiers feel horrible about leaving the people they fought besides to die from the onslaught that is coming. The enemy is battle hardened and without mercy. I feel horrible for all involved but it seems like it will be worse in Afghanistan. I can't imagine being a father to a daughter who wanted a bright future for their child right now. They have at most, one year of schooling left before those schools are snubbed out harshly. Our previous allies that fought along side our soldiers have an even more grim future. There will be a stasi like hunt and subsequent execution of thousands for those that helped us. What would you do when you fought alongside people that became your brothers? Would you betray them and abandon them to this horrible fate? It's easy to call them useful idiots sitting thousands of miles away and safe. They are not dumb, they see the reality on the ground that we are not privy to. At the same time, our soldiers are dieing. It's ugly whatever route we take and I don't know the least horrible decision that should be made.

throwanem 5y ago

> I can't recall a single American that didn't want to go into there after 911. You must not have been paying attention. There were a hell of a lot of us, and we weren't quiet. Or wrong. > I'm afraid this won't be the last time American boots will be in country. Oh, of course not. We'll have left behind whole shipping containers full of the things.

bpodgursky 5y ago
That's not really true. It was very true about Iraq, but almost nobody (I assume there are a couple quakers out there somewhere) was against the action in Afghanistan. The Taliban were widely recognized as the absolute worst, and sheltering Bin Laden was just icing on the cake. This was a close to national unity as anything will ever be.
- herbst 5y ago
  I don't know about America. But back then we had huge demonstrations every weekend in Austria trying to get attention from the US government to rethink their action. The public, here in central Europe, was and still is mainly against the US invading countries for their own means. (This is actually part of the reason so many of my generation learned to hate America for their actions in a early age)
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    Those were very likely for the Iraq war. The Afghanistan war happened too quickly to garner any major opposition, and though there was some opposition I'm not seeing four weeks of huge Austrian demonstrations listed on Wikipedia at least. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Afghanistan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protests_against_the_war_in_Af... And I feel like holding massive anti-US protests in the weeks after 9/11 would have been a huge talking point in the last twenty years.
    - herbst 5y ago
      Anti-Iraq was even bigger for sure. And I am not sure they happened directly after 9/11 or only months later. But the sentiment was obvious, many people do still not believe the official narrative and can't excuse starting a war for a wrong narrative. Pretty sure demos startet after the first related WikiLeaks leaks? On a side note I would be surprised if Wikipedia had a line for a few hundred young lefties demonstrating in a basically forgotten country like austria. When I say huge, I mean relatively, Austria ain't big. But there should be Media and pics somewhere I guess.

Zababa 5y ago

Genuine question: are there any concrete proofs that the intervention reduced terrorism? Not that their absence would prove the opposite of course, but do we have any hard data or something?

austincheney 5y ago
That’s complicated. The Taliban were also generally opposed to terrorism, though they define terrorism a bit differently given their extreme social positions. This resulted in a large rift between the Taliban and Al Qaeda. You could better answer the question yourself with a study of recent history in the region.
boomboomsubban 5y ago
Fairly sure the intervention predated an increase in terrorist acts both locally and internationally. Whether those are related or not is hard to show.
bostonsre 5y ago
It's an ugly complicated mess of a war that will more than likely go on long past our lives. It is highly debatable and probably unknowable if it was the right call in the long run. But I'd have to assume the war kept the terrorists busy at least for a little while. They also more than likely would not have stopped if we made no response.

trasz 5y ago

Kind of telling that you’re mentioning some dollars lost, and soldiers losing their lives, and completely ignore the victims of the war.