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Host Here. Thanks for sharing. Richard is a great story teller and adventures that SQLite has taken him on pretty interesting. I think he in on hn as well ( @

by agbell 5y ago

Host Here. Thanks for sharing. Richard is a great story teller and adventures that SQLite has taken him on pretty interesting. I think he in on hn as well ( @SQLite). One interesting thing I found about how SQLite is developed is the amount of testing that is done. Between unit tests and parameterized tests and fuzzer tests they are doing billions of tests per release and spending days running them before each release. I know I don't like to wait for a long CI build before I deploy a service but something like SQLite needs whole different category of resilience.

radiator 5y ago
Very good podcast, thank you. What I personally missed is a question about the future plans for SQLite. Also about version 4.
sigzero 5y ago
He is on HN. It was a great segment.
- agbell 5y ago
  Thanks for listening! I'm glad you enjoyed it.
not-my-account 5y ago
Great podcast! I have been following it for a while. Can I ask how ended up starting it?
- agbell 5y ago
  CoRecursive started because I did some episodes as a host on software engineering daily and it was lots of fun so I decided to start one of my own. The first 4 episodes were originally on software engineering daily. Originally the idea was to give some platform to the areas of computing I was interested in, heavy use of types and functional programming but I think I really found my place as a podcast when I started to focus on peoples stories. So rather than tell me about SQLite, it is tell me about the story behind creating SQLite.
  - iso8859-1 5y ago
    You are so polite, I am impressed with your ability not to push back on the interviewees. In this episode I would have asked "would sqlite really be worse today if you hadn't done your own VCS.". But I think I wouldn't be half as successful as you, people don't wanna be implicitly criticised by their interviewer :P You are doing so great, favorite podcast by far!
    - neolog 5y ago
      I quite disagree. It's boring when they just say their talking points. The guests are experts in their field, they can handle some pushback and it would be much more educational for the rest of us to hear the answers to the questions we're really wondering about. It doesn't have to be "implicit criticism", but an open mind doesn't blindly accept stuff, ask for justification.
      - sitkack 5y ago
        The justification is where the story is, the tension and relief. This is where you really learn from the interview.
    - SQLite 5y ago
      > would sqlite really be worse today if you hadn't done your own VCS. Yes. Fossil is not only the VCS for SQLite, Fossil is also built around SQLite. SQLite is a core component of Fossil. Thus, when I am working on Fossil, I am forced to interact with SQLite as a "user" instead of as a "developer". In geek-speak, it forces me to "eat my own dog food". This, in turn, prompts me to add needed features to SQLite and more generally to make the SQLite interfaces friendlier to application-developers. One recent example: SQLite version 3.34.0 added the ability to include two or more recursive terms in a Recursive Common Table Expression. (See item 2 in https://www.sqlite.org/releaselog/3_34_0.html https://www.sqlite.org/releaselog/3_34_0.html and subsequent links.) This feature was added specifically so that I could more easily write SQL statements that would walk the Fossil version history DAG, as described by the https://www.sqlite.org/lang_with.html#rcex3 https://www.sqlite.org/lang_with.html#rcex3 link. I did not develop Fossil with this "dogfooding" idea in mind. It was an unanticipated benefit of Fossil. But in the end, I think it might have been the most important benefit of using Fossil instead of some other VCS.
macintux 5y ago
Thanks, that really is a great conversation. I'm going to have to dig to see if he describes somewhere why Fossil is such a great fit for SQLite.
- bch 5y ago
  Couple things: * immutable * built in first-class ticketing system Happens to use SQLite as its storage engine too (SQLInception?), which brings at least a couple (off the top of my head) features: * SQL is used to query things, which is very powerful * the repository is a single SQLite file. Easy to store, copy, and… * one can checkout multiple working copies into various directories. Or, in other words, I can have three discrete, independent workflows happening simultaneously, but only one copy of the repository backing them all. It’s also got a built-in server that you can use locally or publish for remote people to access via their web browser that’s essentially GitHub-in-a-box. Also… (kidding. I’m just going to stop here). Edit: formatting
  - krylon 5y ago
    I've migrated to git for my personal projects, mainly because magit (emacs frontend for git) is awesome. But fossil is a pleasure to work with, especially on Windows, because a) it comes as a single executable that one can just copy to another machine, and b) it does not require ssh or anything else to be installed. The web interface is amazing, especially considering the size of the executable file.
  - Cyph0n 5y ago
    Regarding the multiple working copies feature, sounds the same as Git worktrees.
    - smartmic 5y ago
      Here is a summary of similarities and differences on Git and Fossil functionalities: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/gitusers.md https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/gitusers.md Also quite interesting the general comparison: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/fossil-v-git.wiki https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/fossil-v-git.wiki Both sites are written from Fossil guys, so they may not be 100% neutral.
bsaul 5y ago
That part really made me laugh. A few months ago, i developed a wrapper in swift for sqlite on a project. A coworker of mine had a bug on what sqlite returned, and i couldn't find anything wrong. He told me "it has to be a bug on sqlite", and i said "no, sqlite has no bugs… but i don't really understand what's going on". And so we posted a bug report on the sqlite forums. I told my friend "if you found a bug on sqlite, on your first try, i'll buy you a bottle of champaign". Of course, it was a bug with my wrapper (included a \0 char at the end of strings). I just forwarded him the link to your podcast, saying "we really had no chance"
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thechao 5y ago
  SQLite is a great way to find bugs in your fuzzer: if your fuzzer finds bug, it’s time to debug your fuzzer!
collaborative 5y ago
Really enjoyed this. Is it possible to subscribe using an email address? The subscribe page seems to ask for a bunch of apps (Apple Podcast etc) that I don't use. Would be great to just receive an email and listen on a browser
- agbell 5y ago
  If you scroll to the bottom of the page and sign up for the newsletter, I will email you whenever there is a new episode out. The newsletter will come out once a month when there is a new episode and has a bit of personal take on the episode and maybe some links to other things I've been up to. If you just want a pure notification, I'm sure you could hook the RSS feed up to an RSS to email service. Thanks for listening!
joeyh 5y ago
I enjoyed this episode. I knew about all the tests before, but what came clear in this interview is that Sqlite inc is using their tests as a unique way to keep contracts on Sqlite development flowing. Since they can test it so much better than anyone else, it would be crazy not to hire them, rather than hiring someone else to develop a patch. While they're keeping those tests proprietary, and relatedly have a closed development model, this strikes me as still better than typical open core strategies for monetizing free software, or at least pointing in better directions. Agbell, since you're here, could I ask you add a standard link to the RSS feed for your podcast? <link rel="alternate" title="Corecursive" type="application/rss+xml" href="https://link.chtbl.com/corecursive?platform=rss https://link.chtbl.com/corecursive?platform=rss" />
- zinekeller 5y ago
  > Sqlite inc Minor nitpick: technically, the primary company that supports SQLite is an incorporated partnership named Hipp [ed note: yes, that's Mr. Richard Hipp], Wyrick [ed note: Hipp's wife] & Company, Inc. dba Hwaci (https://www.hwaci.com/ https://www.hwaci.com/).
- agbell 5y ago
  Will do!
  - agbell 5y ago
    Done, joeyh.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

by agbell 5y ago

radiator 5y ago

Very good podcast, thank you. What I personally missed is a question about the future plans for SQLite. Also about version 4.

sigzero 5y ago

He is on HN. It was a great segment.

agbell 5y ago
Thanks for listening! I'm glad you enjoyed it.

not-my-account 5y ago

Great podcast! I have been following it for a while. Can I ask how ended up starting it?

agbell 5y ago
CoRecursive started because I did some episodes as a host on software engineering daily and it was lots of fun so I decided to start one of my own. The first 4 episodes were originally on software engineering daily. Originally the idea was to give some platform to the areas of computing I was interested in, heavy use of types and functional programming but I think I really found my place as a podcast when I started to focus on peoples stories. So rather than tell me about SQLite, it is tell me about the story behind creating SQLite.
- iso8859-1 5y ago
  You are so polite, I am impressed with your ability not to push back on the interviewees. In this episode I would have asked "would sqlite really be worse today if you hadn't done your own VCS.". But I think I wouldn't be half as successful as you, people don't wanna be implicitly criticised by their interviewer :P You are doing so great, favorite podcast by far!
  - neolog 5y ago
    I quite disagree. It's boring when they just say their talking points. The guests are experts in their field, they can handle some pushback and it would be much more educational for the rest of us to hear the answers to the questions we're really wondering about. It doesn't have to be "implicit criticism", but an open mind doesn't blindly accept stuff, ask for justification.
    - sitkack 5y ago
      The justification is where the story is, the tension and relief. This is where you really learn from the interview.
  - SQLite 5y ago
    > would sqlite really be worse today if you hadn't done your own VCS. Yes. Fossil is not only the VCS for SQLite, Fossil is also built around SQLite. SQLite is a core component of Fossil. Thus, when I am working on Fossil, I am forced to interact with SQLite as a "user" instead of as a "developer". In geek-speak, it forces me to "eat my own dog food". This, in turn, prompts me to add needed features to SQLite and more generally to make the SQLite interfaces friendlier to application-developers. One recent example: SQLite version 3.34.0 added the ability to include two or more recursive terms in a Recursive Common Table Expression. (See item 2 in https://www.sqlite.org/releaselog/3_34_0.html https://www.sqlite.org/releaselog/3_34_0.html and subsequent links.) This feature was added specifically so that I could more easily write SQL statements that would walk the Fossil version history DAG, as described by the https://www.sqlite.org/lang_with.html#rcex3 https://www.sqlite.org/lang_with.html#rcex3 link. I did not develop Fossil with this "dogfooding" idea in mind. It was an unanticipated benefit of Fossil. But in the end, I think it might have been the most important benefit of using Fossil instead of some other VCS.

macintux 5y ago

Thanks, that really is a great conversation. I'm going to have to dig to see if he describes somewhere why Fossil is such a great fit for SQLite.

bch 5y ago
Couple things: * immutable * built in first-class ticketing system Happens to use SQLite as its storage engine too (SQLInception?), which brings at least a couple (off the top of my head) features: * SQL is used to query things, which is very powerful * the repository is a single SQLite file. Easy to store, copy, and… * one can checkout multiple working copies into various directories. Or, in other words, I can have three discrete, independent workflows happening simultaneously, but only one copy of the repository backing them all. It’s also got a built-in server that you can use locally or publish for remote people to access via their web browser that’s essentially GitHub-in-a-box. Also… (kidding. I’m just going to stop here). Edit: formatting
- krylon 5y ago
  I've migrated to git for my personal projects, mainly because magit (emacs frontend for git) is awesome. But fossil is a pleasure to work with, especially on Windows, because a) it comes as a single executable that one can just copy to another machine, and b) it does not require ssh or anything else to be installed. The web interface is amazing, especially considering the size of the executable file.
- Cyph0n 5y ago
  Regarding the multiple working copies feature, sounds the same as Git worktrees.
  - smartmic 5y ago
    Here is a summary of similarities and differences on Git and Fossil functionalities: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/gitusers.md https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/gitusers.md Also quite interesting the general comparison: https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/fossil-v-git.wiki https://fossil-scm.org/home/doc/trunk/www/fossil-v-git.wiki Both sites are written from Fossil guys, so they may not be 100% neutral.

bsaul 5y ago

That part really made me laugh. A few months ago, i developed a wrapper in swift for sqlite on a project. A coworker of mine had a bug on what sqlite returned, and i couldn't find anything wrong. He told me "it has to be a bug on sqlite", and i said "no, sqlite has no bugs… but i don't really understand what's going on". And so we posted a bug report on the sqlite forums. I told my friend "if you found a bug on sqlite, on your first try, i'll buy you a bottle of champaign". Of course, it was a bug with my wrapper (included a \0 char at the end of strings). I just forwarded him the link to your podcast, saying "we really had no chance"

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thechao 5y ago
SQLite is a great way to find bugs in your fuzzer: if your fuzzer finds bug, it’s time to debug your fuzzer!

collaborative 5y ago

Really enjoyed this. Is it possible to subscribe using an email address? The subscribe page seems to ask for a bunch of apps (Apple Podcast etc) that I don't use. Would be great to just receive an email and listen on a browser

agbell 5y ago
If you scroll to the bottom of the page and sign up for the newsletter, I will email you whenever there is a new episode out. The newsletter will come out once a month when there is a new episode and has a bit of personal take on the episode and maybe some links to other things I've been up to. If you just want a pure notification, I'm sure you could hook the RSS feed up to an RSS to email service. Thanks for listening!

joeyh 5y ago

I enjoyed this episode. I knew about all the tests before, but what came clear in this interview is that Sqlite inc is using their tests as a unique way to keep contracts on Sqlite development flowing. Since they can test it so much better than anyone else, it would be crazy not to hire them, rather than hiring someone else to develop a patch. While they're keeping those tests proprietary, and relatedly have a closed development model, this strikes me as still better than typical open core strategies for monetizing free software, or at least pointing in better directions. Agbell, since you're here, could I ask you add a standard link to the RSS feed for your podcast? <link rel="alternate" title="Corecursive" type="application/rss+xml" href="https://link.chtbl.com/corecursive?platform=rss https://link.chtbl.com/corecursive?platform=rss" />

zinekeller 5y ago
> Sqlite inc Minor nitpick: technically, the primary company that supports SQLite is an incorporated partnership named Hipp [ed note: yes, that's Mr. Richard Hipp], Wyrick [ed note: Hipp's wife] & Company, Inc. dba Hwaci (https://www.hwaci.com/ https://www.hwaci.com/).
agbell 5y ago
Will do!
- agbell 5y ago
  Done, joeyh.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]