5 ms·

It is so obscenely hard, if even possible, to get sufficient nutrition on a vegan diet. 95% of vegans don’t do a good job and are visibly malnourished. Otoh, i

by wyager 5y ago

It is so obscenely hard, if even possible, to get sufficient nutrition on a vegan diet. 95% of vegans don’t do a good job and are visibly malnourished. Otoh, it’s trivial to get a complete nutritional intake on an animal diet. You’re made out of mammal parts, so it’s pretty much guaranteed you can get what you need by eating animal parts. Compare a serving of pâté to literally any plant.

ElijahLynn 5y ago
It really isn't that hard. All protein on the planet comes from plants and photosynthesis. Dietary supplemental vitamins are needed on both a vegan and non-vegan diet. Human teeth cannot eat raw animal skin/meet, they don't cut it. Watch "The Game Changers". Read the book Eat to Live. It is evidence based, written by an M.D. and has nearly 1,000 references/studies. I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it!
- wyager 5y ago
  > It really isn't that hard Then why is almost every vegan so malnourished? > It is evidence based I doubt it. Nutrition “science” right now has abysmally low evidentiary standards. We don’t have a scientific (i.e. experimental) basis for making strong low-level nutritional predictions beyond “if you don’t get any of this you will die eventually”. Basically the only thing you can do right now is make sweeping observations (“what is the apparent health of populations on this diet?”) and a-priori reasoning (“what is my prior on the evolutionary optimization criteria affecting my metabolic system?”). > I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it! I’ve been eating keto/carnivore for two years now and I feel great (so not looking to improve on that front). I also don’t have any health problems associated with nutritional deficiency (in fact I am in perfect health, and I wasn’t when I ate the S.A.D.), and I don’t have to put in any special effort to maintain that state of affairs.
  - ElijahLynn 5y ago
    They aren't. Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing?
    - wyager 5y ago
      > Watch The Game Changers and read Eat to Live. The Game Changers was manifestly stupid propaganda. If you fell for it, this is a really bad sign wrt your ability to filter out dietary-pseudoscientific nonsense. > Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing The average obese American is on a diet much closer to a vegan diet than a meat-based diet. They get most of their calories from bread, rice, peanut oil, soy products, corn syrup, canola oil, etc. etc.
      - ElijahLynn 5y ago
        > The Game Changers was manifestly stupid propaganda. If you fell for it, this is a really bad sign wrt your ability to filter out dietary-pseudoscientific nonsense. How is watching olympic athletes, proving they are getting even better, propaganda? I feel like you didn't even watch the film.
      - ElijahLynn 5y ago
        > The average obese American is on a diet much closer to a vegan diet than a meat-based diet. They get most of their calories from bread, rice, peanut oil, soy products, corn syrup, canola oil, etc. etc. And meat, cheese and eggs.
        wyager 5y ago
        The average American gets the overwhelming majority of their calories from vegan items. https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/december/a-look-at-calorie-sources-in-the-american-diet https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/december/a-look-at...
  - ElijahLynn 5y ago
    Watch The Game Changers and read Eat to Live.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Why do you believe that almost every vegan is malnourished? How do you know who is vegan, and how do you know who is malnourished? Are you basing this off of anecdotes you've read of people eating plant-based and then feeling unhealthy? If so, that's not very reliable info. On the other hand, here is every large nutrition institute around the world agreeing that veganism can be totally healthy for all stages of life: https://youaretheirvoice.com/pages/the-clear-consensus https://youaretheirvoice.com/pages/the-clear-consensus
    - wyager 5y ago
      > How do you know who is vegan They’ll usually tell you pretty quickly. > here is every large nutrition institute around the world Why would you ever trust a “large nutrition institute”? Who is the kind of person who would come to power at a place like that? Certainly not someone who is dispassionately interested in promoting human health. It’s mostly vegans, seventh day adventists, and other dietary-religious groups. When has a “large nutrition institute” ever released dietary advice that stood the test of time?
      - ElijahLynn 5y ago
        Most vegans I know do not tell anyone. The number of closet, covert vegans is significantly higher than the overt, "preachy" vegans.
        wyager 5y ago
        If you go to a restaurant or eat with them in any context it becomes obvious very quickly.
        ssijak 5y ago
        Read again what you just said..
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        If you're saying they are unreliable as source, the onus is on you to say why. You just posed some questions without actually stating anything, made an assumption with no evidence ("Certainly not someone who is dispassionately interested in promoting human health", "It’s mostly vegans, seventh day adventists, and other dietary-religious groups.") So, do you actually have any sources on why we shouldn't trust them?
JohnSilwon 5y ago
Yep, America is a pinnacle of health when you see how many people have access to abundant meat and milk ... Oh ... wait...
sweetheart 5y ago
> 95% of vegans don’t do a good job and are visibly malnourished Uh, is it even worth asking for a source for this?
- wyager 5y ago
  When I say “visibly malnourished”, I mean you can look at them and see they are malnourished. Why would you ask for a source? Just use your eyes.
  - happytoexplain 5y ago
    >you can look at them All of them at once??
    - wyager 5y ago
      Thankfully, due to the principle of object permanence, it suffices to look at them one at a time.
      - ivanbakel 5y ago
        And you're able to look at all of them, one at a time? The plural of anecdote is not data.
        wyager 5y ago
        The plural of datum is data, and when you look at something that produces a datum.
  - ElijahLynn 5y ago
    The film The Game Changers has plenty of examples of thriving humans on a vegan diet, it is the opposite of what you claim. You are just showing a bias.
    - wyager 5y ago
lrobinovitch 5y ago
I love this response. Such a pleasure when a Registered Dietitian chimes in with an informed opinion based on data on the internet. If anyone want to get some high quality info from an actual registered dietitian, check out Simnett Nutrition https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpyhJZhJQWKDdJCR07jPY-Q https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpyhJZhJQWKDdJCR07jPY-Q
- wyager 5y ago
  Ah yes, the registered dietitian, the pinnacle of scientific and deductive capacity, renowned for their field’s history of uniformly correct recommendations.
  - lrobinovitch 5y ago
    Since some experts get some things wrong some of the time, we should not trust any people who study things deeply. Anecdotal evidence is the only real truth.
    - wyager 5y ago
      If a field systematically makes wrong predictions (not “some experts some of the time”), you should not trust subsequent predictions from that field.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    As opposed to some random guy on the internet?
throwaway_egbs 5y ago
I've seen a lot of people lately making the "you’re made out of animal parts, so eat animals" argument, which is reasonable on its face. But there's a pretty serious problem with it: those animals get everything they need from plants. And now we're in very murky territory, because now you have to prove—not just hypothesize, but prove—that the human animal is different from other animals in some very specific ways, or you have to weaken the initial claim to the point where it doesn't really say anything at all.
- esyir 5y ago
  Dental are actually a great way to show this. The diversity of teeth in our mouths are evidence that we evolved to eat an omnivorous diet.
  - wyager 5y ago
    Good that you should mention dentition, given that a plant-based diet causes humans’ teeth to rot out. Human teeth, like human metabolism, support the consumption of plant material, but not very well.
    - uxcolumbo 5y ago
      Interesting - can you share your sources? I'd like to read more about this. My teeth have not fallen out yet and my dentist gives an OK after many years on a plant based diet.
- wyager 5y ago
  > because now you have to prove—not just hypothesize, but prove—that the human animal is different from other animals in some very specific ways Are you being ironic? We know what a ruminant digestive system looks like and why humans can’t do what they do.

by wyager 5y ago

ElijahLynn 5y ago

It really isn't that hard. All protein on the planet comes from plants and photosynthesis. Dietary supplemental vitamins are needed on both a vegan and non-vegan diet. Human teeth cannot eat raw animal skin/meet, they don't cut it. Watch "The Game Changers". Read the book Eat to Live. It is evidence based, written by an M.D. and has nearly 1,000 references/studies. I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it!

wyager 5y ago
> It really isn't that hard Then why is almost every vegan so malnourished? > It is evidence based I doubt it. Nutrition “science” right now has abysmally low evidentiary standards. We don’t have a scientific (i.e. experimental) basis for making strong low-level nutritional predictions beyond “if you don’t get any of this you will die eventually”. Basically the only thing you can do right now is make sweeping observations (“what is the apparent health of populations on this diet?”) and a-priori reasoning (“what is my prior on the evolutionary optimization criteria affecting my metabolic system?”). > I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it! I’ve been eating keto/carnivore for two years now and I feel great (so not looking to improve on that front). I also don’t have any health problems associated with nutritional deficiency (in fact I am in perfect health, and I wasn’t when I ate the S.A.D.), and I don’t have to put in any special effort to maintain that state of affairs.
- ElijahLynn 5y ago
  They aren't. Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing?
  - wyager 5y ago
    > Watch The Game Changers and read Eat to Live. The Game Changers was manifestly stupid propaganda. If you fell for it, this is a really bad sign wrt your ability to filter out dietary-pseudoscientific nonsense. > Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing The average obese American is on a diet much closer to a vegan diet than a meat-based diet. They get most of their calories from bread, rice, peanut oil, soy products, corn syrup, canola oil, etc. etc.
    - ElijahLynn 5y ago
      > The Game Changers was manifestly stupid propaganda. If you fell for it, this is a really bad sign wrt your ability to filter out dietary-pseudoscientific nonsense. How is watching olympic athletes, proving they are getting even better, propaganda? I feel like you didn't even watch the film.
    - ElijahLynn 5y ago
      > The average obese American is on a diet much closer to a vegan diet than a meat-based diet. They get most of their calories from bread, rice, peanut oil, soy products, corn syrup, canola oil, etc. etc. And meat, cheese and eggs.
      - wyager 5y ago
        The average American gets the overwhelming majority of their calories from vegan items. https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/december/a-look-at-calorie-sources-in-the-american-diet https://www.ers.usda.gov/amber-waves/2016/december/a-look-at...
- ElijahLynn 5y ago
  Watch The Game Changers and read Eat to Live.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Why do you believe that almost every vegan is malnourished? How do you know who is vegan, and how do you know who is malnourished? Are you basing this off of anecdotes you've read of people eating plant-based and then feeling unhealthy? If so, that's not very reliable info. On the other hand, here is every large nutrition institute around the world agreeing that veganism can be totally healthy for all stages of life: https://youaretheirvoice.com/pages/the-clear-consensus https://youaretheirvoice.com/pages/the-clear-consensus
  - wyager 5y ago
    > How do you know who is vegan They’ll usually tell you pretty quickly. > here is every large nutrition institute around the world Why would you ever trust a “large nutrition institute”? Who is the kind of person who would come to power at a place like that? Certainly not someone who is dispassionately interested in promoting human health. It’s mostly vegans, seventh day adventists, and other dietary-religious groups. When has a “large nutrition institute” ever released dietary advice that stood the test of time?
    - ElijahLynn 5y ago
      Most vegans I know do not tell anyone. The number of closet, covert vegans is significantly higher than the overt, "preachy" vegans.
      - wyager 5y ago
        If you go to a restaurant or eat with them in any context it becomes obvious very quickly.
        ssijak 5y ago
        Read again what you just said..
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      If you're saying they are unreliable as source, the onus is on you to say why. You just posed some questions without actually stating anything, made an assumption with no evidence ("Certainly not someone who is dispassionately interested in promoting human health", "It’s mostly vegans, seventh day adventists, and other dietary-religious groups.") So, do you actually have any sources on why we shouldn't trust them?

JohnSilwon 5y ago

Yep, America is a pinnacle of health when you see how many people have access to abundant meat and milk ... Oh ... wait...

sweetheart 5y ago

> 95% of vegans don’t do a good job and are visibly malnourished Uh, is it even worth asking for a source for this?

wyager 5y ago
When I say “visibly malnourished”, I mean you can look at them and see they are malnourished. Why would you ask for a source? Just use your eyes.
- happytoexplain 5y ago
  >you can look at them All of them at once??
  - wyager 5y ago
    Thankfully, due to the principle of object permanence, it suffices to look at them one at a time.
    - ivanbakel 5y ago
      And you're able to look at all of them, one at a time? The plural of anecdote is not data.
      - wyager 5y ago
        The plural of datum is data, and when you look at something that produces a datum.
- ElijahLynn 5y ago
  The film The Game Changers has plenty of examples of thriving humans on a vegan diet, it is the opposite of what you claim. You are just showing a bias.
  - wyager 5y ago

lrobinovitch 5y ago

I love this response. Such a pleasure when a Registered Dietitian chimes in with an informed opinion based on data on the internet. If anyone want to get some high quality info from an actual registered dietitian, check out Simnett Nutrition https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpyhJZhJQWKDdJCR07jPY-Q https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCpyhJZhJQWKDdJCR07jPY-Q

wyager 5y ago
Ah yes, the registered dietitian, the pinnacle of scientific and deductive capacity, renowned for their field’s history of uniformly correct recommendations.
- lrobinovitch 5y ago
  Since some experts get some things wrong some of the time, we should not trust any people who study things deeply. Anecdotal evidence is the only real truth.
  - wyager 5y ago
    If a field systematically makes wrong predictions (not “some experts some of the time”), you should not trust subsequent predictions from that field.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  As opposed to some random guy on the internet?

throwaway_egbs 5y ago

I've seen a lot of people lately making the "you’re made out of animal parts, so eat animals" argument, which is reasonable on its face. But there's a pretty serious problem with it: those animals get everything they need from plants. And now we're in very murky territory, because now you have to prove—not just hypothesize, but prove—that the human animal is different from other animals in some very specific ways, or you have to weaken the initial claim to the point where it doesn't really say anything at all.

esyir 5y ago
Dental are actually a great way to show this. The diversity of teeth in our mouths are evidence that we evolved to eat an omnivorous diet.
- wyager 5y ago
  Good that you should mention dentition, given that a plant-based diet causes humans’ teeth to rot out. Human teeth, like human metabolism, support the consumption of plant material, but not very well.
  - uxcolumbo 5y ago
    Interesting - can you share your sources? I'd like to read more about this. My teeth have not fallen out yet and my dentist gives an OK after many years on a plant based diet.
wyager 5y ago
> because now you have to prove—not just hypothesize, but prove—that the human animal is different from other animals in some very specific ways Are you being ironic? We know what a ruminant digestive system looks like and why humans can’t do what they do.