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I tried doing a strict vegan diet for about a year and found it was endless misery for me. I could never get adjusted to it. There was a constant feeling of tor

by warent 5y ago

I tried doing a strict vegan diet for about a year and found it was endless misery for me. I could never get adjusted to it. There was a constant feeling of torture and self-flagellation. Staying vegetarian is easy enough because it didn't take long before the concept of consuming animal flesh started to repulse me. Even after about 6 years I still feel occasional impulses, probably because I grew up on southern BBQ, but it's really small and easy to pass. So here's what I will say about this. Not everyone's dietary choices are rooted in ignorance. Everyone has different bodies; different hormones and chemistry; different synapses. All we can ask is for everyone to try eating mindfully at minimum. That alone is a great start and will make a huge impact. As for how we feed our pets, I agree with this article, and I'll add pets have such short lifespans, and very few needs, the least we can do is try to give them the highest quality version of the few needs they have. For better or for worse, my cat is a spoiled princess because of this.

sweetheart 5y ago
It's true that our bodies are all different, but this is a very common point made by carnists (folks who use animal products, basically the opposite of vegans), yet I've never been able to find any research on anything that comes from animal products that prevents health issues. I'm genuinely curious if someone could point me in the direction of some material which talks about what it is in animal products that prevents these ailments from occurring. I wonder if it's almost always the case of folks making a dietary switch and not making sure they know how to get everything they need in a balanced diet from non-animal sources, which is actually not hard. EDIT: I may have misread your comment and interpreted your misery as being due to the diet itself, not the psychological toll of the veganism, so apologies if that's the case! Still interested in any research for what I asked about though, if anyone has it handy!
- spacephysics 5y ago
  https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#2.-Creatine https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-ge... Further, many nutrients are far more bio-available than their plant based counterparts. Supplementing for them also isn’t the best substitute. There’s still a demonization of saturated fats despite the heart claims being largely falsified by the sugar industry, and claims of unprocessed meats causing colon cancer being exaggerated substantially (even for processed meats, there’s an increase, but as I recall it’s minimal. Larger chance of lung cancer from city living than colon cancer from occasional processed meat) Each person I believe (key word) has ancestral lineage that describes what foods they can handle best. Hence why we see some people thrive on plant based, and others (like myself) was completely miserable despite taking all the necessary steps. Going the opposite (carnivore) was better in blood markers and we’ll-being for me.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    That article starts with: "Vegan and vegetarian diets are both very healthy ways of eating. They’ve been linked to multiple health benefits and a lower risk of excess weight, heart disease, and even some types of cancer." Which was an interesting choice for you, I think. Also there are some seriously misleading facts in the article: B12 doesn't from from meat, and meat only has B12 today because animals are supplemented with it. DHA comes from algae, so again, the animals you eat have it as a result of having eaten plants. Creatine, carnosine, and taurine are considered nonessential, in the very article. And with regard to iron: "However, iron deficiency is easy to avoid on a well-planned vegan diet", according to the article. But this is kind of irrelevant, because even if these things _were_ hard to get for vegans and supplements were needed, it still makes veganism a moral imperative, because the small price to pay of taking a pill to save billions of sentient animals every year is a no brainer.
    - verall 5y ago
      If people stop eating meat, who is paying for the well being of those billions of animals? I'm not trying to be glib. If humans did not ever eat meat, we would not have ever domesticated cattle, but we did. So if everyone stops eating meat, what happens to all of cattle? We can set them free, but we have bred out most of their ability to compete in nature on their own, we would be leaving most for death. Or we can continue to farm historically domesticated animals benevolently.
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        You're totally right, we can't just set them all free, as it would ruin ecosystems. What we can do is taper our meat consumption down so the animals that are alive now will be killed and used, but we would stop adding new ones to the system. That way we ween off of livestock, their suffering ends, and we avoid an ecological disaster. Farms will have top adapt, because we don't want all the folks in animal agriculture to be out of a job all of a sudden, so it'd take some time. But we can do it, for sure. But asking those kinds of questions is really important, so thank you for posing it.
      - 5y ago
- Zababa 5y ago
  > yet I've never been able to find any research on anything that comes from animal products that prevents health issues From what I've heard from carnivore people, it's usually the opposite. It's not that eating meat prevent health issues, it's that eating some vegetables causes them. Carnivore is a form of elimination diet, which can help some people. For example, if you are gluten intolerant, being carnivore will make you feel better. If you are sensitive to nightshades (some people claim to be and I don't want to dismiss their experience), carnivore will work too. Veganism can work the same way for some people (lactose intolerant people for example, people that get allergic to mammal meat due to Lyme's). I personally think that we tend to underestimate the variations from individual to individual, and that studies don't help with that as nutritional studies are usually self reported and not really solid, and don't take into account confounding factors. For example, vegans and carnivore both have a huge healthy user bias compared to the standard american diet. I think everyone should try different diets and use what's best for them. One big difference between carnivore (or even keto) and veganism however is that veganism is also a diet based on moral and values. As such, it's hard to see vegans as less biased than keto followers or carnivore followers.
  - ssijak 5y ago
    If you are sensitive to nightshades, removing nightshades from the diet would do the trick, people dont have to go full blast carnivore
    - Zababa 5y ago
      The same would apply to people sensitive to gluten and going vegan, people don't have to go full blast vegan. But many vegan may be benefiting from it and think it's the vegan diet. Unless you remove everything and reintroduce everything one by one it's hard to know exactly what makes you react or not.
      - ssijak 5y ago
        Veganism is not only related to food, it is conscious decision to lessen the unneeded suffering and exploitation of animals. Which includes using them for food but is not limited on food. People on carnivore diet do not have that overarching ethical stance which guides their decisions. So saying "people don't have to go full blast vegan" is not the same as "people don't have to go full blast carnivore" because people rarely go vegan because of the diet, they do it because of the animals. Doing it only because of the diet would probably be called "plant based" eating now a days.
iechoz6H 5y ago
I was a Vegan for 12 years between the ages of 18 and 30. I was literally the worst advert for a Vegan diet imaginable primarily because I was so angry all the time. I'm much less angry now I'm a Vegetarian.
- JohnSilwon 5y ago
  Found the titty sucking cheese lover!
giantg2 5y ago
I agree, but this does raise one question for me. If we are to eat mindfully, should we not have pets at all? This seems to be a population, resource, and global warming constraint.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  Unpopular opinion, but I would completely outlaw any pet ownership or animal husbandry on the simple basis that it's impossible for animals to consent to being owned.
  - chacha2 5y ago
    They didn't consent to nature either.
    - Falling3 5y ago
      And that's why we don't use "but Nature did it first" as a justification in moral discussions.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        I think that's too simplistic. Here's an animal. The options are: - Owned/managed by a human - Living in nature - Not existing The animal has consented to exactly none of those. But living in nature is not a bed of roses. Is it moral to subject an animal to that? In that analysis, human ownership (if humane) seems like the most moral option. And "nature did it first" has nothing to do with the analysis.
        Falling3 5y ago
        I disagree it's too simplistic. It's a logical fallacy that we wouldn't be advocating for in any other context than our treatment of non-human animals. It's also just a disingenuous argument. If our actual concern were the welfare and lives of animals in the wild, we would be capturing and caring for those individuals - not breeding new ones into existence.
fumar 5y ago
For what its worth the increase in plant-based foods has made veganism an easier lifestyle choice. I've been vegan, a health decision advised by a doctor, for a year now and its made a positive impact to my overall health proven by routine full lab work, pre and post. I wasn't overweight and my weight has only decreased by a few pounds. It is changed how I view food too. We truly are what we eat. We should know that intuitively – our fuel is food. I generalize that for many people less meat and meat products may lead to positive health outcomes, but I am no scientist. Finding new vegan restaurants, recipes, or food staples has given my sense of culinary adventure. There are times when the food is not good or my expectations were too high, but there are plenty times when my taste buds are elated and my body fully satiated. ymmv
- borski 5y ago
  Counterpoint: I've been Keto, also advised by a doctor, and have eaten basically nothing but free-farmed meat and cheese, along with lots of veggies, and my overall health has gone from "OK" to roughly "great." (labwork, etc.) I've since transitioned to low-carb rather than proper keto, but the increase in keto foods (things made with healthy fats, allulose rather than table sugar, etc.) has made it much easier to do proper keto. As parent said: YMMV, and we all have different bodies, needs, etc.
  - parksy 5y ago
    Corollary - I did keto for just over a year while on a vegetarian diet with the main goal being weight loss. During that time I felt extremely energised and healthier. While not strictly vegan, my diet was basically the low-carb nuts, legumes, mushrooms, fruits, vegetables, eggs and cheeses. I did have to add a few supplements, otherwise I'd feel like utter shit, magnesium and electrolytes mainly had a significant effect on my mood. But otherwise it's the healthiest and most alert I've felt since I was a teenager. People I mention this to assume the toughest challenge is variety but as I love to cook it wasn't too hard to make it interesting each day. The toughest challenge was convenience, you grab a coffee or a lunch with friends and there's very few places that cater for all. The second most challenging aspect was cooking meals for the family, as I am the main cook for my wife and kids who did not at all buy into a vegetarian diet let alone keto, but that again wasn't too bad since I could just cook a normal meal, scrape out the bits I can have and whip something up for me afterwards. After about a year on that diet I ran a sub-1hr 12km charity race which isn't exactly a world record, but not bad for a 40-something always-recovering alcoholic with weight and mental health problems. I'd definitely recommend keto (with proper medical supervision) but... maybe not at the same time as trying to eat less meat.
wyager 5y ago
It is so obscenely hard, if even possible, to get sufficient nutrition on a vegan diet. 95% of vegans don’t do a good job and are visibly malnourished. Otoh, it’s trivial to get a complete nutritional intake on an animal diet. You’re made out of mammal parts, so it’s pretty much guaranteed you can get what you need by eating animal parts. Compare a serving of pâté to literally any plant.
- ElijahLynn 5y ago
  It really isn't that hard. All protein on the planet comes from plants and photosynthesis. Dietary supplemental vitamins are needed on both a vegan and non-vegan diet. Human teeth cannot eat raw animal skin/meet, they don't cut it. Watch "The Game Changers". Read the book Eat to Live. It is evidence based, written by an M.D. and has nearly 1,000 references/studies. I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it!
  - wyager 5y ago
    > It really isn't that hard Then why is almost every vegan so malnourished? > It is evidence based I doubt it. Nutrition “science” right now has abysmally low evidentiary standards. We don’t have a scientific (i.e. experimental) basis for making strong low-level nutritional predictions beyond “if you don’t get any of this you will die eventually”. Basically the only thing you can do right now is make sweeping observations (“what is the apparent health of populations on this diet?”) and a-priori reasoning (“what is my prior on the evolutionary optimization criteria affecting my metabolic system?”). > I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it! I’ve been eating keto/carnivore for two years now and I feel great (so not looking to improve on that front). I also don’t have any health problems associated with nutritional deficiency (in fact I am in perfect health, and I wasn’t when I ate the S.A.D.), and I don’t have to put in any special effort to maintain that state of affairs.
    - ElijahLynn 5y ago
      They aren't. Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing?
tashoecraft 5y ago
What I do is try to stay vegan/plant based as much as possible, which basically means everything I make in my house is plant based, but if I go to a restaurant that makes a really great X that's not vegan I might get it. Or if I choose to make something in my house that's not vegan, I'm going all out, getting the top ingredients I can get my hands on and making it a truly great version of that meal. I'm done having mediocre burgers at BBQs, smothered with cheap bacon and cheese. This food isn't good, but since we just cover it in tons of fat we convince ourselves otherwise, and along the way we ignore the massive amounts of animal suffering, deterrents to our health, and carbon costs we're inflicting because of these decisions. You don't have to go 100% vegan/plant based, just stop making meat/dairy/animal by products the only thing you eat. Once you start you begin to get repulsed at the lack of vegetable options available to you at most places. Why is it such a crazy view point to eat something actually nutritionally good for you.
- dorchadas 5y ago
  This is how I do it. Anything I buy and cook for myself is vegetarian at a minimum, more often vegan (the occasional cheese dip and eggs for brownies slip through), but if I go out somewhere with friends and they don't have a good veggie/vegan option, I do eat meat. Likewise if I go to someone's house where they're cooking of preparing food. I've found this to be a really good compromise to it, and often only eat meat one or two meals a week.
newman555 5y ago
Really? For me switching process was long, but now that I’m vegan, I can’t tell you how much I enjoy the food I eat. Also, there was never an easier time to switch, so many substitutes (if you need them), so many great vegan restaurants (at least where I live). Again, variety of food, options, the flavours..just have to discover new things. Btw, I was hardcore meat eater most of my life, but then things changed, I realized what I’m eating, what impact it has on my health, on the environment and it just started feeling wrong.
- ElijahLynn 5y ago
  Can you please email me at elijah@elijahlynn.net? I would like to connect with you and other vegan tech folk (ideally a video chat). This is open to anyone on this thread. I've been nutritarian vegan (Eat to Live book) for 16 years, fwiw.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Hey, you should check out the Humane League, and consider becoming a Changemaker. I did it a couple months ago and now I have a large network of vegan folks around the country that have been a great support system. Many of us are in tech, too!
    - ElijahLynn 5y ago
      Thanks, I'll check it out. I'd like to chat with you more about it. Can you email me at elijah@elijahlynn.net?
ElijahLynn 5y ago
I've just hit my 16 year veganniversary... Number of times I have been to the doctor for protein deficiency... zero. I have found that the biggest problem with being vegan is depression, depression because you have no friends. You basically go through this very traumatic learning experience to learn the truth about where food comes from and then you are isolated. Friends make jokes about you, and become not so good friends anymore. Then you become depressed because of the isolation and then _some_ think it is because of the diet, which it could be, but likely isn't. And it is because of the isolation. (watch the film Happy) The evidence based book Eat to Live will guide anyone interested in a vegan or plant-based diet to nutritional excellence, so they aren't missing any nutrients etc. However, it won't get you friends and help others be more compassionate and open minded, it is quite miserable. So, I suggest that priority #1 if anyone goes vegan is to move. Yes, move to a city where there is a vegan community, along with that comes more compassionate individuals. We did that and moved to Portland, Oregon and now I have a TON of friends (I did work hard at it, meeting people in real life on FB groups) and I encourage more to come to Portland as well! There are over 40 vegan-only restaurants, 40 more that are vegan and vegetarian and over 80 more that have vegan menu items. This means there is quite the population already here, so move here, make it better, get in a good supportive bubble! If you move here for the vegan community, hit me up and I'll introduce you to others! elijah@elijahlynn.net
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Zababa 5y ago
  > Friends make jokes about you, and become not so good friends anymore. It sounds like they weren't good people in the first place. I've been on the other side, having a friend that became vegan, and it's not that hard to plan a bit more ahead or ask if he's okay with eating something different. Edit: something that I should add is that we both respected each other's boundaries. I didn't question his choice to not consume animal products, and he didn't question mine to consume them. I can understand that if you believe that animals are a really important cause you have to push other people to follow you, but I think that if I was constantly questionned we wouldn't have remained good friends. On the other hand, I also understand that some people wouldn't want to associate with people that consume animal products because their values aren't the same.
8ytecoder 5y ago
Agreed that different people have different synapses based on how they grow up. I didn't drink a lot of milk and never had cheese for most of my life. We used coconut milk for the creamy base. But I grew up eating, limited but regular, meat. I was ready to give up dairy before I could give up my lamb chops. I grew What I crave is seafood. So I go to a local fisherman for that. I'm vegan in all other aspects and I don't give an F about some people preaching me. The vegan cheeses (Miyako in particular), Oat Milk (the barista kind) and Just Egg are great substitutes btw. Impossible tastes just like meat to me now.
JohnSilwon 5y ago
If you're digusted by the thought of eating animal flesh, you should really see how milk is made. And also, miss me with this bull. Either go vegan or shut the fuck up. Vegetarians are the worst.
chrispine 5y ago
I know this wasn't your main point, but IMHO it's not helpful to think in binary terms: "strict vegan" or "not at all". In terms of animal welfare, or in terms of environmental impact, or whatever impels one to consider a plant-based diet, why not just view it as a spectrum? I don't want you (or anyone) to feel tortured or self-flagellated about their diet.

by warent 5y ago

sweetheart 5y ago

It's true that our bodies are all different, but this is a very common point made by carnists (folks who use animal products, basically the opposite of vegans), yet I've never been able to find any research on anything that comes from animal products that prevents health issues. I'm genuinely curious if someone could point me in the direction of some material which talks about what it is in animal products that prevents these ailments from occurring. I wonder if it's almost always the case of folks making a dietary switch and not making sure they know how to get everything they need in a balanced diet from non-animal sources, which is actually not hard. EDIT: I may have misread your comment and interpreted your misery as being due to the diet itself, not the psychological toll of the veganism, so apologies if that's the case! Still interested in any research for what I asked about though, if anyone has it handy!

spacephysics 5y ago
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-get-from-plants#2.-Creatine https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/7-nutrients-you-cant-ge... Further, many nutrients are far more bio-available than their plant based counterparts. Supplementing for them also isn’t the best substitute. There’s still a demonization of saturated fats despite the heart claims being largely falsified by the sugar industry, and claims of unprocessed meats causing colon cancer being exaggerated substantially (even for processed meats, there’s an increase, but as I recall it’s minimal. Larger chance of lung cancer from city living than colon cancer from occasional processed meat) Each person I believe (key word) has ancestral lineage that describes what foods they can handle best. Hence why we see some people thrive on plant based, and others (like myself) was completely miserable despite taking all the necessary steps. Going the opposite (carnivore) was better in blood markers and we’ll-being for me.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  That article starts with: "Vegan and vegetarian diets are both very healthy ways of eating. They’ve been linked to multiple health benefits and a lower risk of excess weight, heart disease, and even some types of cancer." Which was an interesting choice for you, I think. Also there are some seriously misleading facts in the article: B12 doesn't from from meat, and meat only has B12 today because animals are supplemented with it. DHA comes from algae, so again, the animals you eat have it as a result of having eaten plants. Creatine, carnosine, and taurine are considered nonessential, in the very article. And with regard to iron: "However, iron deficiency is easy to avoid on a well-planned vegan diet", according to the article. But this is kind of irrelevant, because even if these things _were_ hard to get for vegans and supplements were needed, it still makes veganism a moral imperative, because the small price to pay of taking a pill to save billions of sentient animals every year is a no brainer.
  - verall 5y ago
    If people stop eating meat, who is paying for the well being of those billions of animals? I'm not trying to be glib. If humans did not ever eat meat, we would not have ever domesticated cattle, but we did. So if everyone stops eating meat, what happens to all of cattle? We can set them free, but we have bred out most of their ability to compete in nature on their own, we would be leaving most for death. Or we can continue to farm historically domesticated animals benevolently.
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      You're totally right, we can't just set them all free, as it would ruin ecosystems. What we can do is taper our meat consumption down so the animals that are alive now will be killed and used, but we would stop adding new ones to the system. That way we ween off of livestock, their suffering ends, and we avoid an ecological disaster. Farms will have top adapt, because we don't want all the folks in animal agriculture to be out of a job all of a sudden, so it'd take some time. But we can do it, for sure. But asking those kinds of questions is really important, so thank you for posing it.
    - 5y ago
Zababa 5y ago
> yet I've never been able to find any research on anything that comes from animal products that prevents health issues From what I've heard from carnivore people, it's usually the opposite. It's not that eating meat prevent health issues, it's that eating some vegetables causes them. Carnivore is a form of elimination diet, which can help some people. For example, if you are gluten intolerant, being carnivore will make you feel better. If you are sensitive to nightshades (some people claim to be and I don't want to dismiss their experience), carnivore will work too. Veganism can work the same way for some people (lactose intolerant people for example, people that get allergic to mammal meat due to Lyme's). I personally think that we tend to underestimate the variations from individual to individual, and that studies don't help with that as nutritional studies are usually self reported and not really solid, and don't take into account confounding factors. For example, vegans and carnivore both have a huge healthy user bias compared to the standard american diet. I think everyone should try different diets and use what's best for them. One big difference between carnivore (or even keto) and veganism however is that veganism is also a diet based on moral and values. As such, it's hard to see vegans as less biased than keto followers or carnivore followers.
- ssijak 5y ago
  If you are sensitive to nightshades, removing nightshades from the diet would do the trick, people dont have to go full blast carnivore
  - Zababa 5y ago
    The same would apply to people sensitive to gluten and going vegan, people don't have to go full blast vegan. But many vegan may be benefiting from it and think it's the vegan diet. Unless you remove everything and reintroduce everything one by one it's hard to know exactly what makes you react or not.
    - ssijak 5y ago
      Veganism is not only related to food, it is conscious decision to lessen the unneeded suffering and exploitation of animals. Which includes using them for food but is not limited on food. People on carnivore diet do not have that overarching ethical stance which guides their decisions. So saying "people don't have to go full blast vegan" is not the same as "people don't have to go full blast carnivore" because people rarely go vegan because of the diet, they do it because of the animals. Doing it only because of the diet would probably be called "plant based" eating now a days.

iechoz6H 5y ago

I was a Vegan for 12 years between the ages of 18 and 30. I was literally the worst advert for a Vegan diet imaginable primarily because I was so angry all the time. I'm much less angry now I'm a Vegetarian.

JohnSilwon 5y ago
Found the titty sucking cheese lover!

giantg2 5y ago

I agree, but this does raise one question for me. If we are to eat mindfully, should we not have pets at all? This seems to be a population, resource, and global warming constraint.

silicon2401 5y ago
Unpopular opinion, but I would completely outlaw any pet ownership or animal husbandry on the simple basis that it's impossible for animals to consent to being owned.
- chacha2 5y ago
  They didn't consent to nature either.
  - Falling3 5y ago
    And that's why we don't use "but Nature did it first" as a justification in moral discussions.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      I think that's too simplistic. Here's an animal. The options are: - Owned/managed by a human - Living in nature - Not existing The animal has consented to exactly none of those. But living in nature is not a bed of roses. Is it moral to subject an animal to that? In that analysis, human ownership (if humane) seems like the most moral option. And "nature did it first" has nothing to do with the analysis.
      - Falling3 5y ago
        I disagree it's too simplistic. It's a logical fallacy that we wouldn't be advocating for in any other context than our treatment of non-human animals. It's also just a disingenuous argument. If our actual concern were the welfare and lives of animals in the wild, we would be capturing and caring for those individuals - not breeding new ones into existence.

fumar 5y ago

For what its worth the increase in plant-based foods has made veganism an easier lifestyle choice. I've been vegan, a health decision advised by a doctor, for a year now and its made a positive impact to my overall health proven by routine full lab work, pre and post. I wasn't overweight and my weight has only decreased by a few pounds. It is changed how I view food too. We truly are what we eat. We should know that intuitively – our fuel is food. I generalize that for many people less meat and meat products may lead to positive health outcomes, but I am no scientist. Finding new vegan restaurants, recipes, or food staples has given my sense of culinary adventure. There are times when the food is not good or my expectations were too high, but there are plenty times when my taste buds are elated and my body fully satiated. ymmv

borski 5y ago
Counterpoint: I've been Keto, also advised by a doctor, and have eaten basically nothing but free-farmed meat and cheese, along with lots of veggies, and my overall health has gone from "OK" to roughly "great." (labwork, etc.) I've since transitioned to low-carb rather than proper keto, but the increase in keto foods (things made with healthy fats, allulose rather than table sugar, etc.) has made it much easier to do proper keto. As parent said: YMMV, and we all have different bodies, needs, etc.
- parksy 5y ago
  Corollary - I did keto for just over a year while on a vegetarian diet with the main goal being weight loss. During that time I felt extremely energised and healthier. While not strictly vegan, my diet was basically the low-carb nuts, legumes, mushrooms, fruits, vegetables, eggs and cheeses. I did have to add a few supplements, otherwise I'd feel like utter shit, magnesium and electrolytes mainly had a significant effect on my mood. But otherwise it's the healthiest and most alert I've felt since I was a teenager. People I mention this to assume the toughest challenge is variety but as I love to cook it wasn't too hard to make it interesting each day. The toughest challenge was convenience, you grab a coffee or a lunch with friends and there's very few places that cater for all. The second most challenging aspect was cooking meals for the family, as I am the main cook for my wife and kids who did not at all buy into a vegetarian diet let alone keto, but that again wasn't too bad since I could just cook a normal meal, scrape out the bits I can have and whip something up for me afterwards. After about a year on that diet I ran a sub-1hr 12km charity race which isn't exactly a world record, but not bad for a 40-something always-recovering alcoholic with weight and mental health problems. I'd definitely recommend keto (with proper medical supervision) but... maybe not at the same time as trying to eat less meat.

wyager 5y ago

It is so obscenely hard, if even possible, to get sufficient nutrition on a vegan diet. 95% of vegans don’t do a good job and are visibly malnourished. Otoh, it’s trivial to get a complete nutritional intake on an animal diet. You’re made out of mammal parts, so it’s pretty much guaranteed you can get what you need by eating animal parts. Compare a serving of pâté to literally any plant.

ElijahLynn 5y ago
It really isn't that hard. All protein on the planet comes from plants and photosynthesis. Dietary supplemental vitamins are needed on both a vegan and non-vegan diet. Human teeth cannot eat raw animal skin/meet, they don't cut it. Watch "The Game Changers". Read the book Eat to Live. It is evidence based, written by an M.D. and has nearly 1,000 references/studies. I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it!
- wyager 5y ago
  > It really isn't that hard Then why is almost every vegan so malnourished? > It is evidence based I doubt it. Nutrition “science” right now has abysmally low evidentiary standards. We don’t have a scientific (i.e. experimental) basis for making strong low-level nutritional predictions beyond “if you don’t get any of this you will die eventually”. Basically the only thing you can do right now is make sweeping observations (“what is the apparent health of populations on this diet?”) and a-priori reasoning (“what is my prior on the evolutionary optimization criteria affecting my metabolic system?”). > I've been doing the ETL lifestyle now for 16 years now, and feel great on it! I’ve been eating keto/carnivore for two years now and I feel great (so not looking to improve on that front). I also don’t have any health problems associated with nutritional deficiency (in fact I am in perfect health, and I wasn’t when I ate the S.A.D.), and I don’t have to put in any special effort to maintain that state of affairs.
  - ElijahLynn 5y ago
    They aren't. Do you look at all the obese people and say, man, that non-vegan diet you are on looks really malnourishing?

tashoecraft 5y ago

What I do is try to stay vegan/plant based as much as possible, which basically means everything I make in my house is plant based, but if I go to a restaurant that makes a really great X that's not vegan I might get it. Or if I choose to make something in my house that's not vegan, I'm going all out, getting the top ingredients I can get my hands on and making it a truly great version of that meal. I'm done having mediocre burgers at BBQs, smothered with cheap bacon and cheese. This food isn't good, but since we just cover it in tons of fat we convince ourselves otherwise, and along the way we ignore the massive amounts of animal suffering, deterrents to our health, and carbon costs we're inflicting because of these decisions. You don't have to go 100% vegan/plant based, just stop making meat/dairy/animal by products the only thing you eat. Once you start you begin to get repulsed at the lack of vegetable options available to you at most places. Why is it such a crazy view point to eat something actually nutritionally good for you.

dorchadas 5y ago
This is how I do it. Anything I buy and cook for myself is vegetarian at a minimum, more often vegan (the occasional cheese dip and eggs for brownies slip through), but if I go out somewhere with friends and they don't have a good veggie/vegan option, I do eat meat. Likewise if I go to someone's house where they're cooking of preparing food. I've found this to be a really good compromise to it, and often only eat meat one or two meals a week.

newman555 5y ago

Really? For me switching process was long, but now that I’m vegan, I can’t tell you how much I enjoy the food I eat. Also, there was never an easier time to switch, so many substitutes (if you need them), so many great vegan restaurants (at least where I live). Again, variety of food, options, the flavours..just have to discover new things. Btw, I was hardcore meat eater most of my life, but then things changed, I realized what I’m eating, what impact it has on my health, on the environment and it just started feeling wrong.

ElijahLynn 5y ago
Can you please email me at elijah@elijahlynn.net? I would like to connect with you and other vegan tech folk (ideally a video chat). This is open to anyone on this thread. I've been nutritarian vegan (Eat to Live book) for 16 years, fwiw.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Hey, you should check out the Humane League, and consider becoming a Changemaker. I did it a couple months ago and now I have a large network of vegan folks around the country that have been a great support system. Many of us are in tech, too!
  - ElijahLynn 5y ago
    Thanks, I'll check it out. I'd like to chat with you more about it. Can you email me at elijah@elijahlynn.net?

ElijahLynn 5y ago

I've just hit my 16 year veganniversary... Number of times I have been to the doctor for protein deficiency... zero. I have found that the biggest problem with being vegan is depression, depression because you have no friends. You basically go through this very traumatic learning experience to learn the truth about where food comes from and then you are isolated. Friends make jokes about you, and become not so good friends anymore. Then you become depressed because of the isolation and then _some_ think it is because of the diet, which it could be, but likely isn't. And it is because of the isolation. (watch the film Happy) The evidence based book Eat to Live will guide anyone interested in a vegan or plant-based diet to nutritional excellence, so they aren't missing any nutrients etc. However, it won't get you friends and help others be more compassionate and open minded, it is quite miserable. So, I suggest that priority #1 if anyone goes vegan is to move. Yes, move to a city where there is a vegan community, along with that comes more compassionate individuals. We did that and moved to Portland, Oregon and now I have a TON of friends (I did work hard at it, meeting people in real life on FB groups) and I encourage more to come to Portland as well! There are over 40 vegan-only restaurants, 40 more that are vegan and vegetarian and over 80 more that have vegan menu items. This means there is quite the population already here, so move here, make it better, get in a good supportive bubble! If you move here for the vegan community, hit me up and I'll introduce you to others! elijah@elijahlynn.net

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Zababa 5y ago
> Friends make jokes about you, and become not so good friends anymore. It sounds like they weren't good people in the first place. I've been on the other side, having a friend that became vegan, and it's not that hard to plan a bit more ahead or ask if he's okay with eating something different. Edit: something that I should add is that we both respected each other's boundaries. I didn't question his choice to not consume animal products, and he didn't question mine to consume them. I can understand that if you believe that animals are a really important cause you have to push other people to follow you, but I think that if I was constantly questionned we wouldn't have remained good friends. On the other hand, I also understand that some people wouldn't want to associate with people that consume animal products because their values aren't the same.

8ytecoder 5y ago

Agreed that different people have different synapses based on how they grow up. I didn't drink a lot of milk and never had cheese for most of my life. We used coconut milk for the creamy base. But I grew up eating, limited but regular, meat. I was ready to give up dairy before I could give up my lamb chops. I grew What I crave is seafood. So I go to a local fisherman for that. I'm vegan in all other aspects and I don't give an F about some people preaching me. The vegan cheeses (Miyako in particular), Oat Milk (the barista kind) and Just Egg are great substitutes btw. Impossible tastes just like meat to me now.

JohnSilwon 5y ago

If you're digusted by the thought of eating animal flesh, you should really see how milk is made. And also, miss me with this bull. Either go vegan or shut the fuck up. Vegetarians are the worst.

chrispine 5y ago

I know this wasn't your main point, but IMHO it's not helpful to think in binary terms: "strict vegan" or "not at all". In terms of animal welfare, or in terms of environmental impact, or whatever impels one to consider a plant-based diet, why not just view it as a spectrum? I don't want you (or anyone) to feel tortured or self-flagellated about their diet.