3 ms·

We should be clear that this is not "the people", point blank, but a demographic, even in the South, one naturally cultivated by the police. The demographic and

We should be clear that this is not "the people", point blank, but a demographic, even in the South, one naturally cultivated by the police. The demographic and situation doesn't stay the way it is by the mere persistence of culture. But otherwise your points are reasonable.

javajosh 5y ago
It's the black political culture that I'm most curious about. Something has happened that has sapped the will to express power at the ballot box, and it's not just voter suppression laws (although that doesn't help). There are some unhealthy memes, like the idea (voiced by comedians like Dave Chappelle) that to vote just reinforces an unjust system, and that to not vote has the positive benefit that it will get so bad that a real revolution can happen. Less than 50% of blacks in Georgia voted in the election that could have propelled Stacy Abrams (a moderate liberal black woman) into the governor's seat. Think about that. Voter suppression cannot explain why half of Georgia's black voting population didn't show up to vote! It's just like the occasional comment that comes up at HN about the power of imposed censorship compared to the power of self-censorship - the latter is far, far more impactful than the former.
- joe_the_user 5y ago
  Local elections everywhere have a lower turnout than national elections. It's how Biden could win Arizona and then have the state do it's audit. Just as much, having a system bought and paid for by billionaires will turn people off voting, whether you or I engage in "you're abandoning your civic duty" hand wringing or anarchist chuckling. Maybe if more people voted you could inch things forward but at scale, voting requires positive hope and aspirations. The current situation isn't intended to give that to the less-well-off person.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    Well, hand-wringing doesn't do any good. To me, it's a legitimate mystery, independent of how it should be I'm actually curious to understand why things are the way they are. We know people behave in reaction to incentives. So what are those incentives? How are they communicated? Why are they effective? I'm not sure what element of science it is (sociology? political science?) but it's an interesting problem - and certainly not unique to 21st century USA! I mean, these same questions are interesting to ask in many historical contexts when seemingly civilized, rational groups suddenly take a collective moral nosedive, to their own great detriment. Blacks not voting is a relatively mild case compared to the self-destructiveness of Germany in the 1930's or the USSR in the 40's-80's or the Cambodia of the 70's. There's plenty of other examples, too. Maybe if we can figure it out we can reduce the harm when it becomes an existential threat, as with climate change and WMD.
- KittenInABox 5y ago
  My understanding is that there are a variety of significant factors that disproportionately affect marginalized people that make it harder to vote. Systemically, we're dealing with a population that has been systemically marginalized. They're disproportionately imprisoned (and therefore stripped of their rights to vote), disproportionately targeted for less opportunities to vote (less ballot boxes per person, longer lines, etc), and their cultures around voting disproportionately targeted and excluded (sunday voting exclusion). Similarly, it's also a population that disproportionately cannot afford to leave during a workday, during work hours, to stand in line for several hours to vote. That disproportionately cannot afford to participate in civic engagement, due to being unable to monetarily afford the documentation and cognitively afford the brain space to ensure they're registered in time, remember the ever-changing rules around voting, know which candidates to vote for, etc. And then, this very same population is fully aware that the people who are in power have put in place the very same systemic oppression that makes their lives more difficult, and the very same system of civic engagement has produced the system of their oppression. There's a significant amount of cynicism that comes with that.
  - javajosh 5y ago
    Sounds plausible, but that doesn't make it true (or false). I'm sorry to say that liberals play games in this space, and I don't particularly trust these neat narratives. The overarching objection I have is that it casts black folks as helpless victims unable to change their own circumstances. I find it very hard to believe that making voting inconvenient, even terribly inconvenient, even to the extent that you describe, is enough to dissuade fully half of all black people to opt-out. And if you're right, I would argue that the black people themselves need to fix it. If I was part of an oppressed minority and there was a legal, peaceful way for me to have even a sliver of a chance of changing my people's circumstances, you'd have to keep me out of the voting booth with a gun in my face. (And yeah, at that point I'd say a real revolution is in order.)
    - KittenInABox 5y ago
      The baseline is 60% voter participation. It makes sense that a marginalized group with significantly higher barriers has a 10% reduction in participation to me!

javajosh 5y ago

It's the black political culture that I'm most curious about. Something has happened that has sapped the will to express power at the ballot box, and it's not just voter suppression laws (although that doesn't help). There are some unhealthy memes, like the idea (voiced by comedians like Dave Chappelle) that to vote just reinforces an unjust system, and that to not vote has the positive benefit that it will get so bad that a real revolution can happen. Less than 50% of blacks in Georgia voted in the election that could have propelled Stacy Abrams (a moderate liberal black woman) into the governor's seat. Think about that. Voter suppression cannot explain why half of Georgia's black voting population didn't show up to vote! It's just like the occasional comment that comes up at HN about the power of imposed censorship compared to the power of self-censorship - the latter is far, far more impactful than the former.

joe_the_user 5y ago
Local elections everywhere have a lower turnout than national elections. It's how Biden could win Arizona and then have the state do it's audit. Just as much, having a system bought and paid for by billionaires will turn people off voting, whether you or I engage in "you're abandoning your civic duty" hand wringing or anarchist chuckling. Maybe if more people voted you could inch things forward but at scale, voting requires positive hope and aspirations. The current situation isn't intended to give that to the less-well-off person.
- javajosh 5y ago
  Well, hand-wringing doesn't do any good. To me, it's a legitimate mystery, independent of how it should be I'm actually curious to understand why things are the way they are. We know people behave in reaction to incentives. So what are those incentives? How are they communicated? Why are they effective? I'm not sure what element of science it is (sociology? political science?) but it's an interesting problem - and certainly not unique to 21st century USA! I mean, these same questions are interesting to ask in many historical contexts when seemingly civilized, rational groups suddenly take a collective moral nosedive, to their own great detriment. Blacks not voting is a relatively mild case compared to the self-destructiveness of Germany in the 1930's or the USSR in the 40's-80's or the Cambodia of the 70's. There's plenty of other examples, too. Maybe if we can figure it out we can reduce the harm when it becomes an existential threat, as with climate change and WMD.
KittenInABox 5y ago
My understanding is that there are a variety of significant factors that disproportionately affect marginalized people that make it harder to vote. Systemically, we're dealing with a population that has been systemically marginalized. They're disproportionately imprisoned (and therefore stripped of their rights to vote), disproportionately targeted for less opportunities to vote (less ballot boxes per person, longer lines, etc), and their cultures around voting disproportionately targeted and excluded (sunday voting exclusion). Similarly, it's also a population that disproportionately cannot afford to leave during a workday, during work hours, to stand in line for several hours to vote. That disproportionately cannot afford to participate in civic engagement, due to being unable to monetarily afford the documentation and cognitively afford the brain space to ensure they're registered in time, remember the ever-changing rules around voting, know which candidates to vote for, etc. And then, this very same population is fully aware that the people who are in power have put in place the very same systemic oppression that makes their lives more difficult, and the very same system of civic engagement has produced the system of their oppression. There's a significant amount of cynicism that comes with that.
- javajosh 5y ago
  Sounds plausible, but that doesn't make it true (or false). I'm sorry to say that liberals play games in this space, and I don't particularly trust these neat narratives. The overarching objection I have is that it casts black folks as helpless victims unable to change their own circumstances. I find it very hard to believe that making voting inconvenient, even terribly inconvenient, even to the extent that you describe, is enough to dissuade fully half of all black people to opt-out. And if you're right, I would argue that the black people themselves need to fix it. If I was part of an oppressed minority and there was a legal, peaceful way for me to have even a sliver of a chance of changing my people's circumstances, you'd have to keep me out of the voting booth with a gun in my face. (And yeah, at that point I'd say a real revolution is in order.)
  - KittenInABox 5y ago
    The baseline is 60% voter participation. It makes sense that a marginalized group with significantly higher barriers has a 10% reduction in participation to me!