13 ms·

Acer disables BIOS for laptops sold through Amazon? (2020)

369 points by nrjames 5y ago

nrjames 5y ago
I purchased one of these computers for my child. It made a loud buzzing noise and turned off last week. I discovered the locked BIOS for myself when I tried to boot from a USB to diagnose the problem. Acer wants $619.99 to diagnose it at their repair center, since it is 2 weeks out of warranty.
- bogota 5y ago
  Holy shit. I never had a good experience with acer but now i will never be buying one again.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    I’ve been out of the Windows/PC scene for a decade, but even in the 2000s, I was under the impression that Acer was a choice to sacrifice quality for a lower price.
  - piceas 5y ago
    I'm a long term IBM/Lenovo T/X series user with a side of yoga. Lots to like but plenty of problems too. Overall better than a cheaper brand like Acer from what I could see from my friends devices. But there have been some low points. Dodgey motherboards on multiple generations of T series laptops, Superfish and whitelisted wifi cards on the yoga, and generally poor quality screens for a variety of reasons gives one pause before buying the next one. For the first time in a couple of decades I've taken the risk and branched out to the Acer Spin 5. I am pleasantly surprised. Not perfect either but not nearly as cheap as I had feard. A Bios update was essential for it to be functional. But that was true of some models in the T series in the past.
- LegitShady 5y ago
  Some years ago I had an acer laptop with a discrete video card that would get so hot it would start having graphical errors. I installed bios updates, made sure the intakes weren't blocked, reinstalled drivers, reformatted the machine, etc etc. I spent days and days trying to solve the issue myself. I sent it into acer (under warranty!) because i couldn't play any games on it for longer than half an hour. They sent it back to me saying they couldn't find anything wrong with it. The laptop would still crash within 30-45 minutes of playing a game. Whenever people ask me to recommend computers or computer accessories, I never recommend acer. I've never bought another acer product since and I have never been dissatisfied with that decision.
- xnyan 5y ago
  In college I sold a lot of laptops for best buy. Acer often had great specs, seemingly solid looking hardware that was clearly influenced by good designs (Apple) and a great price for the specs and features. All laptops have problems, but Acer was by far the worst - More often then not, the problems stemmed from bad heat management (the most common killer of laptops IME) and quality control that was seemingly laser focused on avoiding problems for exactly as long as the warranty lasted. PSA: Lenovo has tons of problems w/r/t how they operate as a company, but the thinkpad is far and away the best overall non-mac laptop brand you can readily buy anywhere in the world.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    I just use the Best Buy warranty. I always buy it and haven't paid for a laptop since the one I went to university with. I just buy the warranty again. On my fourth laptop now.
    - indigodaddy 5y ago
      Interesting way to work the system of crappy hardware. They just keep breaking and you just keep getting replacements eh?
      - MattGaiser 5y ago
        Pretty much. They have lasted between 1 and 2.5 years. I can usually negotiate something slightly better each time as well. Hardware works fine until something goes wrong and I drop it off a Geek Squad, use one of my other computers for a week, and then go select a replacement. It also covers charger replacements and accidental damage, so if your charger frays, they replace it (a big issue with Acer and Asus). I grant that the Geek Squad people aren't great at fixing things, but replacing? Excellent.
  - alasdair_ 5y ago
    The dell xps 13 is a fantastic alternative to the thinkpad. It can come with Ubuntu preloaded and fully configured, something that was a major plus for me.
- skissane 5y ago
  We bought our son a consumer HP laptop. Its BIOS isn't locked, but has few settings exposed. HP intentionally cripples its consumer laptop BIOS to hide most of the settings. I can't get WoWLAN to work and wonder if the BIOS settings are why but there are no WoL settings exposed in the BIOS. There used to be a hidden key sequence to reveal an "Advanced" menu. It changed a few times. But on the more recent versions, there is no "Advanced" menu any more, it is removed completely. (They use InsydeH20 BIOS; you can find some reverse engineering tool to decode its menu structure – I heard rumours on forums the hidden menu was completely removed, the tool confirmed it.) May still be possible to inspect and change some undocumented settings with some more in-depth BIOS hacking. But I'm scared I'm going to brick the computer by doing that. I gave up. I guess next time I buy a computer I'll keep this in mind.
- eps 5y ago
  Back in late '00 I had a top of the line Acer. Two years of warranty. A week after the warranty ended the display lost 50% of its brightness, a day later the trackpad died and in a couple of days later speakers went kaput. Was rock solid while on warranty.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
Lammy 5y ago
Keep this in mind when you read about Windows 11 requiring TPM 2.0, Secure Boot, and a camera/microphone.
- twiclo 5y ago
  Embrace, extend, extinguish
  - dathinab 5y ago
    > TPM 2.0, Secure Boot, and a camera/microphone. Non of this prevent you from e.g. running Linux, I have been running Linux with Secure Boot since 5+ years. The problem is: - not being able to select a alternate boot device (for install medium, diagnostics etc., even a major problem if you only run windows IMHO) - not being able to set a custom platform key - the EFI "missing" some "standard" keys especially if combined with the previous point Sure temporary disabling secure boot for making Linux installs easier is nice, but not required for functionality. Similar legacy boot mode can be nice, but I haven't used it in ~10 years or so. As a side note you can use TPM for some usages comparable to e.g. a Yubikey (with drawbacks). So having a TPM can be quite useful, even on Linux.
    - bitwize 5y ago
      > Sure temporary disabling secure boot for making Linux installs easier is nice, but not required for functionality. For as long as Microsoft deigns to allow the signed shim to boot. Microsoft is the only key authority allowed by the main PC manufacturers. If you wish to become a key authority yourself, to allow your OS to boot on Secure Boot enabled devices without asking the end user to install additional keys (note: some devices may not allow this), then you must go to the OEMs individually and petition to be added to their key authority list. Prices from the OEMs that allow this are in the millions of dollars.
      - dathinab 5y ago
        > - not being able to set a custom platform key In which case this doesn't matter. (i.e. if you can set a custom platform key) Also Microsoft would not only need to stop signing shims but revoke all existing signatures.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
emsy 5y ago
Acer not giving this customer a refund probably cost them more money than the refund would‘ve. Such pettiness rarely pays off.
rblatz 5y ago
Is there anyway to flash the normal unlocked bios onto these machines?
- ilikenwf 5y ago
  Chip clip
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    Is there a standardized procedure? Any links of choice?
josteink 5y ago
> but because Linux requires you to disable Secure Boot Patently false. I’m secure-booting all my Ubuntu installations and (iirc) I could do that too back when I used Fedora. Why do people keep repeating this FUD? Linux plus UEFI Secure Boot works fine as long as you use the signed version of GRUB. It’s not hard. Edit: Downvotes? Really? For clearing up a (way too) common misunderstanding about Linux and UEFI, with facts? Jeez guys.
- LucidLynx 5y ago
  I am sorry but, except maybe the latest versions of Fedora, you have to disable secure boot to boot on Linux the first time... I tried with Ubuntu, Pop-OS, Arch, Manjaro... All except Fedora require to disable Secure Boot.
  - als0 5y ago
    Just want to say that my Ubuntu 18.04 works with secure boot enabled (and so do newer versions).
- fiddlerwoaroof 5y ago
  So, the ability to boot Linux with Secure Boot is entirely dependent on some third party being willing to sign the bootloader? No thanks
  - josteink 5y ago
    I see I’ve landed so deep in the sea of FUD, beyond my ability to keep my feet dry, but I’ll make one last attempt at spreading actual knowledge. 1. Too guaranteed boot Linux with UEFI Secure Boot OOB without technical fiddling you have to use GRUB signed using keys trusted by Microsoft, like Canonical’s keys. So kinda, yes. 2. Many firmwares allows you to roll your own keys, meaning you don’t have to trust MS or Canonical or anyone else. So you have the choice between user-friendly (default) or improved security (requires fiddling). I personally think the default makes sense for most users, and I’m already 200 miles beyond proving that Linux can indeed use UEFI and Secure Boot. That’s an established fact for more than half a decade now. Not being able to disable those in BIOS won’t prevent you from loading Linux, and it would reflect better on the wider Linux-community if people stopped pushing such FUD. Canonical has a good write up here, if you want more details: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot
zogulus 5y ago
I bought an Acer laptop a while ago, then I found out the support they sold me was through a third party that had terrible customer service and they never upgraded the drivers after shipping, which made the laptop useless a couple of years down the line. I learnt my lesson though, never by from Acer.
- krylon 5y ago
  From what I've heard, Acer's support is nothing to brag about either. I never owned one myself, but I've heard complaints about their laptops from several people regarding reliability/longevity. At the last company I worked at, we had two beamers made Acer, both broke within six weeks, we sent them in for repair, when they came back, one of them still didn't work.
ilikenwf 5y ago
Assuming these use 4 pin SOIC chips, a programmer and chip clip will get you started...back it up with flashrom and see if you can just modify the settings there, sometimes you can with open source tools, other times you need leaked AMI etc tools. Beyond that, you may be able to find a way to remove the restriction and flash with your programmer, or use the bios from their website, but you have to be careful in case machine specific things like serial, etc are overwritten.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  Okay, but they should pay damages for the time everyone would need to waste on this bullshit.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  These are good hints for special cases, but when one buys a computer it must remain implied: it is owned not licensed, it is bought to be used according to need not according to the vendor's assumptions. It must be open - you want to install any OS, you can easily install any OS (and you surely must not be bound with the provided one). Strictly.
LucidLynx 5y ago
> He explained that all computer vendors do this to one extent to another, such as Apple with iPhones, and refused to provide me any means to unlock it no matter how technical I am. I bought a Razer Blade 15 two weeks ago during Amazon sales - once arrived I opened it and upgraded the SSD from 256GBytes to 1TBytes without any issue, and it works really good on Arch... So, Acer, not all computer vendors are doing this shit.
- ivraatiems 5y ago
  Just throwing in a surprising second vote of support for Razer's laptop line. I've never owned a laptop that didn't have a ton of quirks, and my Razer Blade Stealth isn't an exception - but even given that, it's one of the best laptops I've ever owned. It looks beautiful, it's light, battery lasts a really long time, it handles any game I throw at it at 1080p with reasonable framerates, so I can game while traveling. The biggest issue I've had with it was actually with the charger - the USB C port on the charger snapped off after just a few months of reasonable use. Razer replaced it for free, but that's when I learned that any charger less than 100watts results in the battery draining under load when plugged in. The build quality of the laptop itself, though, is excellent. I've done BIOS updates, etc., and have had no issues.
  - loie 5y ago
    I have a Dell 5401 for work, same story with USB-C charging. Its power brick is 90W but the USB-C block I have can only do 60W max per port. Windows will whine about a "slow USB charger connected" but other than that it works fine for the typical MS Office stuff. It will drain if I really push it though.
  - ineedasername 5y ago
    Wow, 100W seems very underpowered as a charger for a gaming laptop. USB-C really isn't a good choice in this case.
    - deadmutex 5y ago
      FYI, USB-C 2.1 can charge at 240W. I really prefer the simplicity of not having to drag around a laptop brick, and love the simplicity of having one cable to carry all the signals I need (USB, DisplayPort, Power, etc.)
BrandoElFollito 5y ago
This is interesting, the law in France would protect the customer anyway - but I wonder why not simply sending it back to Amazon?
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  By the sounds of it they did: > I replied I will simply complain to Amazon and seek a refund through them
  - BrandoElFollito 5y ago
    Ah, that's right. I was a bit confused because in France you deal with the vendor, not the producer. I would ask Amazon why this is blocked and that they are selling something that is not proper (and Amazon cannot refer me to the producer because they are responsible). I now got the fact that he was trying to make the laptop work, rather than just getting a refund.
watsocd 5y ago
I have purchased some ACER laptops for a charity and a customer I support. I used to consider ACER to be one of the good guys and more open source/Linux friendly. I will NEVER trust them again!!!!
dusted 5y ago
how is this not illegal ?
dstaley 5y ago
Before we all grab our pitchforks, maybe we should take a moment and realize that this is a single review on Amazon that's lacking in important details. The headline here reads "Acer disables BIOS for laptops sold through Amazon", but the review mentions that they're able to get into the BIOS. They're only unable to change the boot order, which is a lot different from "disables BIOS". Furthermore, I don't entirely understand why the reviewer tried to get a refund from Acer when they purchased it from Amazon. I bet there's a non-nefarious explanation for the disabled setting that the reviewer saw. Sadly with a $1,530 cost, I don't expect anyone here to buy the laptop just for research purposes!
- logifail 5y ago
  > I bet there's a non-nefarious explanation for the disabled setting [..] Citation needed? There was once a time when you purchased a product you owned it, and were allowed to do devious stuff like "Change The Boot Order". Apparently that's now out of bounds. I despair.
  - paublyrne 5y ago
    > Citation needed? Op is making a bet not a claim.
    - gmiller123456 5y ago
      I'll take that bet. Unfortunately we'd never agree when it's settled. A better bet would be to provide a non-nefarious answer as to why this isn't part of the product description.
- FullyFunctional 5y ago
  Another commenter has confirmed this. Grab pitchforks.
  - annoyingnoob 5y ago
    Or an attorney.
duxup 5y ago
>but was told that Acer locks the BIOS on all computers shipped through Amazon in order to "protect" customers from changing things that might break the computer if they don't know what they're doing. That doesn't make any sense. Why would you lock it because it was sold through Amazon? Is it accessible if you buy it direct from Acer? Sounds like a customer support person just made up a reason.
- derefr 5y ago
  Perhaps it’s a workaround for Amazon’s commingled-stock problem. Third party can’t override Secure Boot to install a root kit and then return the laptop in a way that ends up with it commingled with “new” stock, if third parties can’t write to CMOS memory in the first place. (Of course, they could still install a “hard mod” root kit by e.g. reflashing the BIOS through its JTAG pins, or just desoldering it and soldering on something else. But that requires a much higher tier of resources, one that also enables other classes of attacks that don’t involve putting the stock back into the first-party warehouse.)
  - adriancr 5y ago
    just wondering if its legal to sell returned products as new. I thought they were sold as refurbished/second chance with a discount.
    - cortesoft 5y ago
      Even if it is illegal, lots of sellers on Amazon break the law... and since they co-mingle inventory from different sellers, one bad seller trying to pass off returns as new could contaminate every seller's products.
  - fomine3 5y ago
    This looks plausible. Also swap and return fraud can be blocked by this restriction.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Amazon has a large problem with fraudulent parts and co-mingled stock and customers returning swapped parts and not checking. Could be protection against that?
cmeacham98 5y ago
Assuming the BIOS lock also prevents you from adding your own keys this fails the Windows Compatibility Program requirements (i.e. Microsoft's requirements for OEMs to be able to pre-install Windows). From https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-secure-boot#secure-boot-requirements https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/dev... > The platform must come provisioned with the correct keys in the UEFI Signature database (db) to allow Windows to boot. It must also support secure authenticated updates to the databases. I'm not sure how to contact Microsoft about this issue though.
- AshamedCaptain 5y ago
  I believe that allowing updating the database from Windows itself is enough to satisfy the requirement. No need to allow doing it from firmware setup. Microsoft's own devices do it that way.
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  > It must also support secure authenticated updates to the databases. This does not imply "the user must be able to add their own keys". (Particularly as that would not usually be "authenticated"). Secure Boot keys include keys which (in theory) are used to authenticate an update to the key database.
- jonwest 5y ago
  Maybe unrelated to your post, but assuming you can’t change the boot order how could you feasibly reinstall the OS if you ran into malware or other issues?
solarkraft 5y ago
> the computer defaulted to a lower resolution out of the box for some reason. The BIOS locking is obviously egregious and they deserve anything from refunding this person to a class action lawsuit. But wow. That sounds like "wait, you mean people are going to use this as a computer?" style product management.
jonnycomputer 5y ago
Acer: noted. What ass-hattery.
stonewareslord 5y ago
Is the source of this a single Amazon review?
- nrjames 5y ago
  No, I’m OP and experienced it first hand. It was after struggling for hours and calling Acer support that I found this review, which accurately describes the problem/situation. I did not write the Amazon review. FWIW, I submitted a claim to my credit card extended warranty insurance perk but have yet to hear back.
sschueller 5y ago
We are entering the dark ages rapidly. Soon you will no longer be allowed to install what you want. Sorry! That app is illegal now. All under the bullshit reason of safety/security. We can have both without setting everything up for an orwellian state.
- conradfr 5y ago
  Coincidentally last year (and this year) in many places in the world you couldn't go where you wanted for the same reason.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  Every year since 1995 has been "The Year of Not Being Able To Install What You Want". And yet, here we are, still sideloading on Android and running bare .EXEs on Windows. It's the hot take that keeps giving!
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    It started on just niche devices like the TiVo. It's been slowly branching out to more and more devices since then. Also, have you never seen an Android device where sideloading was disabled and you couldn't re-enable it? Because I have.
    - phendrenad2 5y ago
      Is it really expanding though? The market for devices is also expanding. Don't confuse absolute numbers with relative numbers. Of course I have encountered devices that don't allow sideloading, are you saying that is expanding also? Or has "rooting" always been something many carriers and manufacturers sought to disable?
      - josephcsible 5y ago
        In both absolute and relative terms. Basically every new computing device that's not a desktop or laptop is locked down in some way, and even some laptops are locked down too (e.g., Windows RT on ARM laptops).
haunter 5y ago
Yet the first video on Youtube shows that you can boot from USB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EARdWsgvAXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EARdWsgvAXo I give the benefit of doubt that the person just didn't know how to do it (also the source is this single Amazon review? Pretty low for HN tbh) Here is another video with Ubuntu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap386n98j0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap386n98j0U There is even a Hackintosh tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJmttuumVU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJmttuumVU /r/linux_gaming also have several positive threads Edit: And of course I'm instantly downvoted
- de_Selby 5y ago
  You clearly didn't read the review. They say it is only for models sold through Amazon
  - haunter 5y ago
    Yet there is no other proof beyond that one single Amazon review I mean I'm all in for some good HN rage but there is no proof beyond that one person. Also no other review mentions this problem (just by searching around). Linux distros can pass Secure Boot just fine but maybe the reviewer just simply didn't know that Honestly if I were in the US I'd just buy one to test this then send it back to Amazon because I very much doubt it's true
    - mschuster91 5y ago
      There are two people right in this HN thread confirming this...
bserge 5y ago
Honestly, fuck all new laptops. I'm working on a custom PC case that's 36x29x15cm and can fit standard components so I have a proper computer that I own and can carry around in average sized luggage. Would anyone be interested in something like that btw? Fits mATX boards, most graphics cards (sadly not the top end), 4x 2.5 drives (plus onboard NVMe/mSATA), standard ATX PSUs and has a BIOS reset button.
- zapdrive 5y ago
  Checkout framework laptop [0]. Pretty sick. It's a really modular laptop focused on reusability. I would order one if they accepted crypto. 0: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/
  - GuB-42 5y ago
    There are actually plenty of modular laptops. This one doesn't look terrible but there are plenty of other options. Thinkpads have a pretty good reputation. You can also get big "desktop in a laptop" style PCs, and generally, the thick gaming laptops tend to be easy to work with. You can look at Clevo, which is known for being the OEM for many off-brand PCs, notably System76. If you are a bit more extreme, you can look at Panasonic Toughbooks: hardened, industrial laptops with plenty of swapable modules. Framework have the advantage of being thin and light, most modular laptops are on the big side. It means it fits a niche. However, if re-usability is your goal, keep in mind that it is a startup, it may fail, and if that happens, forget about support and spare parts. By comparison, Lenovo is not going anywhere.
    - Sr_developer 5y ago
      > And generally, the thick gaming laptops tend to be easy to work with. I confirm, I havent bought one yet, but the other day I saw this laptop: https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-IPS-Type-i5-10300H-Keyboard-FX706LI-ES53/dp/B08ZLC661T https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-IPS-Type-i5-10300H-Keyboard-FX70... 17 inches, a 144hz screen,GTX 1650, 512 GB SSD and space for 2 more!. You can add a 4 TB HD, a 1GB SSD, and change the RAM to 32 GB and get a monster machine for about 1200 USD. With a Clevo (and other similar brands) you can have even more customization options, although I expect them to be more expensive.
0x_rs 5y ago
I guess this will explode in popularity now, because it's a heinous behavior and what's (clearly) ridiculous is that it would be discovered out of the box if not long parted with it making returns needlessly more complicated. Besides, it'd catch by surprise the majority of IT people, I've never read about anything like this in retail.
MaxBarraclough 5y ago
The link without the 'ref' tracking argument: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/
- dang 5y ago
  Changed to that from https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B07YM938TP https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/ref.... Thanks!
boba7 5y ago
Acer is Seagate of Laptop manufacturers.
- timbit42 5y ago
  More like the JTS of...
hughrr 5y ago
Acer have always sold utter barrel scraping dog shit machines with worthless warranty made of the lowest bidding vendor's parts. I'm surprised anyone even looks in that direction these days. In fact I'm surprised they are even still going. And as for this, I am also not even surprised if it's happening. If you're after a new laptop, buy Apple or a business grade unit from Lenovo (T/X/P series). If you can't afford that or don't want to afford it, buy a 2-3 year old machine from a larger refurbisher from the same list. If you shop around you can pick up a previous gen machine with 3 years next business day warranty on it sealed new for less than half current retail proce. I got a ryzen T495 for 500 GBP here with 3 years NBD on it.
- arp242 5y ago
  I bought a second-hand E585 for €500 last year; works like a charm. The 15" isn't what I would have chosen myself (I previously had an X270 that unfortunately broke after a fall), but it works well enough. If you're not looking for latest cutting-edge performance then you're usually better off buying a second-hand ThinkPad if available in your area.
ww520 5y ago
Just want to point out the A-to-Z Guarantee from Amazon. When you're dealing with problematic sellers who refuse to remedy defects, mention the A-Z and watch them cave. Couple A-to-Z complaints and the seller is kicked out Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GQ37ZCNECJKTFYQV https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...
- meowster 5y ago
  > mention the A-Z and watch them cave In that case, don't mention it, just use it.
notaplumber 5y ago
I don't buy this. Some Acer laptops in the past have required that you set a Supervisor BIOS password in order to change the Secure Boot settings, but after you do that you can set the password to blank to clear it again.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Good point, this is definitely a thing on some hardware. Still crappy, but not a huge deal breaker.
- zoomablemind 5y ago
  +1 on the need to set the Supervisor PW in BIOS, otherwise the settings were greyed out. Puzzling indeed, I had to deal with it back some 5 years ago. Definitely found this answer on forums rather than from mfgr suport pages/docs. However in this case it may be a different "lockdown" issue, though quite an odd choice reasoning-wise.
  - nrjames 5y ago
    With this machine, if purchased from Amazon, the settings remain greyed out even if you set the Supervisor PW. That is not the case if you buy it elsewhere.
- josephcsible 5y ago
  Even if this is the case, it's still terrible that such unintuitive, undiscoverable behavior (1) isn't documented as being the case, and (2) isn't known and explained by their tech support. And why would it only work like this if you bought from Amazon?
- nrjames 5y ago
  You can do that on this laptop if you don’t buy it from Amazon. There are plenty of YouTube videos showing how. If you but it from Amazon, like I did, you can set/change BIOS passwords, but Secure Boot cannot be changed and you cannot add a USB drive to the boot order. I spent hours trying to find a workaround.
halotrope 5y ago
We should be very careful about surrendering the demand for free, open general computing for whatever reason. Convenience, networks and pricing are driving a trend towards trusted, locked-down computing. It never happens all at once. Always one step at a time.
ineedasername 5y ago
It says "Amazon", but it's specific to Acer: does Acer do this on laptop sold directly or through other retail outlets?
- timbit42 5y ago
  Yes. Walmart.
pengaru 5y ago
Acer has always been trash, it just turns out trash is a trajectory; it gets even more trashy through the passage time.
ineedasername 5y ago
How would this be done? Hardware or software layer? Why would this be done? People add secondary drives, may need to boot from USB, etc. It seems like a weird limitation.
vxNsr 5y ago
In this situation it’s often best to employ what many seasoned consumers call the HUCA strategy: Hang Up; Call Again. I’ve used this in many scenarios, with much success. It does mean you might on hold for a bit, so it’s best to plan mindless tasks that can be quickly interrupted while doing this, but for big ticket items where there isn’t much recourse it’s often worth it. As soon as it becomes clear the person on the other end can’t help say “goodbye” and hang up. Call right back and hopefully you’ll get a more helpful person. It’s very possible there is a way to get into the BIOS, and the rep just didn’t know it but didn’t wanna come off as ignorant.
barnyfried 5y ago
What you are witnessing young fool is the intentional, extremely profitable business of "deprecating" "general purpose computers". Did you seriously think that M1 macbook was about anything but escaping the legal definition (there is one) of a general purpose computer. If you port for the M1 chip you have gone to the dark side. Ill be here if you ever find your way back. This reminds me of a conversation I overheard about 10 years ago, "I tried to delete my account on facebook I think all they are doing is scraping my personal information" You folks here, yc grads, you either think you have us all fooled or you as dumb as rocks. Neither is likely true but there will be consequences nonetheless. Perhaps move to bitcoin island and spend your riches on some margaritas and a mud hut.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
joedoejr 5y ago
You guys discussing a complete bs review from a technically uneducated person which was called “lamer” long time ago. “1920x1080, but looks a little pixelated” seriously can’t you just tell for sure what resolution do you have in OS? Acer does not sign it’s laptop BIOSes and it is trivial to read it and unlock/unhide all possible options with ready to use GUI applications from BIOS vendors. This is what people doing for decades, and for Thinkpads you will need a flash programmer and hex editor. So even if there is secure boot lock which i highly doubt, because no relevant detail was present in the review, you can solve it (hack the device that never meant for whatever you want it to do) at least three different ways and the easiest one is not bugging official support, but ask on forums like win-raid and get your instructions and ready to use bios in pm in several days if he absolutely can’t set UEFI himself. I wonder what happen with snowflake when he learn that his Tesla top speed and range also software blocked.
crazygringo 5y ago
None of this makes much sense to me... First, I'm just confused why Acer would even do this. At first I thought they'd be charging extra $ to unlock the BIOS or something, but the review doesn't mention any of that. It's just... locked period? Businesses usually only do things they have a financial incentive for, but I'm not seeing what the incentive is here. Does anyone have any idea? Second, what is the "support number in the pamphlet that came with the computer" that wasn't Acer? Is it normal for computer manufacturers to provide a third-party support service or something? Third... why even bother trying to return it to Acer? Probably the #1 reason to buy from Amazon is you can return almost everything to Amazon no-questions-asked for a full refund within 30 days.
- worewood 5y ago
  Incentive is preventing third- party repair and charging absurd rates for it just like Apple
pkulak 5y ago
I'm wavering between a Dell and System76. I know the Dell will have better hardware... but man, at least the System76 will work with Linux, and if not, I'll have support. This only pushes me further toward System76.
- Foomf 5y ago
  Dell sells linux laptops.
hvinayan 5y ago
You could maybe try modifying the UEFI variables from within windows.
G3rn0ti 5y ago
I am a little surprised because I am actually quite fond of Acer’s laptops. That’s because I repaired two of them and I was delighted how easy they were to work with and how cheap the repairs were. On the last one (a 2016 Acer Aspire E5) I replaced its IPS panel twice because the owner (my GF) had repeatedly stepped on it. That was pretty easy: Removing the screen bezel, scan the panel’s QR code revealing its part number, ordering replacement on ebay (€70, delivery from one day to another), loosening four screws and replacing the old panel. The second time I additionally had to replace the panel’s housing and transfer hinges (bending one back into form), cables, camera modules and WiFi antennas which was done in under an hour. Again, all modules and individual parts carried a QR code for easy sourcing of replacements. The replacement housing had cost me only €30. I also replaced the laptop’s battery before (after 2.5 years of intense usage) — €50, the battery was not even screwed in or glued but just held by the casing. So easy peasy replacement. In the end we sold the poor and unloved thing — repaired, well-working and 4 years old — for €200 on Ebay. Just because my GF longed for a MacBook Air for over 1400 bucks that surely looks great but is neither upgradable nor well repairable … I must admit I never tried to change the boot order on these systems, so I might have overlooked the crippled BIOS. But ever since I’ve been recommending mid-range Acer laptops for the great price and repairability and been thinking of replacing my Fujitsu Siemens business laptop with an Acer. Photos from the last repair: https://www.facebook.com/1483420419/posts/10224056908918861/?d=n https://www.facebook.com/1483420419/posts/10224056908918861/...
mdp2021 5y ago
A www list of "Product name | Experiences installing Linux" would be really, really needed. The existing ones I know are very incomplete. My last purchase experience was very successful (30 mins install including a compressed dd backup of the original hd contents. Before buying the product I had web-searched for other people's experiences), but it is absurd that one may have doubts about the process working (flawlessly, effortlessly...). It is like buying a car still wondering "will it work in my weather". This definitely should not happen. EDIT: one trick I use, that some may find useful, to get corroborations about Linux running on a product: the Geekbench results browser. The Geekbench benchmark results are uploaded to browser.geekbench.com, and the 'Platform' column may contain 'Linux'. So, for example, https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=acer https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q... shows e.g. that a few days ago the benchmark was run on an Acer Aspire V5-552G using Ubuntu 14.04.2 etc... EDIT2: of course the information about which this page revolves is based on laptops which are locked under some conditions, so techniques like the one I mentioned are not full warranty - they guarantee that in some instances of the product Linux may work.
Folkert 5y ago
You should be able to run Linux. See the review on https://www.saltmoney.org/best-laptops-for-kali-linux/ https://www.saltmoney.org/best-laptops-for-kali-linux/. Makes you wander if Amazon pays for these re^H^Hviews.
mtzaldo 5y ago
I bought an acer laptop last year. The same happened to me. What I did was to set a bios password and the I was able to change the boot order. Tldr; set a bios password
ctf1er 5y ago
I bought an Acer Nitro laptop through amazon about a year ago(i7, 16GB, rtx2060.) For me, all bios settings were available just some hidden by default, so it only took a quick google. Added hds and did a dual boot. I'm happy with mine which was $150-200 cheaper than cheapest equivalent hardware. I just have to live with the ugly red gamer look but otherwise nice design. My only issue is that when lifting with one hand grabbing the bottom right corner, the case flexes just enough to make scary sounds right where the spinning disk is located(me handling it badly, but I do like aluminum.) Some have mentioned cooling; mine is well done and the fan software actually nice. Good value.
hda2 5y ago
Over a decade ago, I had a Acer laptop that literally burnt its own CPU. I never bought from them after that. How do you even burn a CPU!
gowld 5y ago
The Acer was cheaper than System76 but didn't actually work for the function System76 advertises, which Acer didn't advertise. That's why System76 charges more.
ChrisArchitect 5y ago
is BiosBug unlocker related? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22046928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22046928

369 points by nrjames 5y ago

I purchased one of these computers for my child. It made a loud buzzing noise and turned off last week. I discovered the locked BIOS for myself when I tried to boot from a USB to diagnose the problem. Acer wants $619.99 to diagnose it at their repair center, since it is 2 weeks out of warranty.

bogota 5y ago
Holy shit. I never had a good experience with acer but now i will never be buying one again.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  I’ve been out of the Windows/PC scene for a decade, but even in the 2000s, I was under the impression that Acer was a choice to sacrifice quality for a lower price.
- piceas 5y ago
  I'm a long term IBM/Lenovo T/X series user with a side of yoga. Lots to like but plenty of problems too. Overall better than a cheaper brand like Acer from what I could see from my friends devices. But there have been some low points. Dodgey motherboards on multiple generations of T series laptops, Superfish and whitelisted wifi cards on the yoga, and generally poor quality screens for a variety of reasons gives one pause before buying the next one. For the first time in a couple of decades I've taken the risk and branched out to the Acer Spin 5. I am pleasantly surprised. Not perfect either but not nearly as cheap as I had feard. A Bios update was essential for it to be functional. But that was true of some models in the T series in the past.
LegitShady 5y ago
Some years ago I had an acer laptop with a discrete video card that would get so hot it would start having graphical errors. I installed bios updates, made sure the intakes weren't blocked, reinstalled drivers, reformatted the machine, etc etc. I spent days and days trying to solve the issue myself. I sent it into acer (under warranty!) because i couldn't play any games on it for longer than half an hour. They sent it back to me saying they couldn't find anything wrong with it. The laptop would still crash within 30-45 minutes of playing a game. Whenever people ask me to recommend computers or computer accessories, I never recommend acer. I've never bought another acer product since and I have never been dissatisfied with that decision.
xnyan 5y ago
In college I sold a lot of laptops for best buy. Acer often had great specs, seemingly solid looking hardware that was clearly influenced by good designs (Apple) and a great price for the specs and features. All laptops have problems, but Acer was by far the worst - More often then not, the problems stemmed from bad heat management (the most common killer of laptops IME) and quality control that was seemingly laser focused on avoiding problems for exactly as long as the warranty lasted. PSA: Lenovo has tons of problems w/r/t how they operate as a company, but the thinkpad is far and away the best overall non-mac laptop brand you can readily buy anywhere in the world.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I just use the Best Buy warranty. I always buy it and haven't paid for a laptop since the one I went to university with. I just buy the warranty again. On my fourth laptop now.
  - indigodaddy 5y ago
    Interesting way to work the system of crappy hardware. They just keep breaking and you just keep getting replacements eh?
    - MattGaiser 5y ago
      Pretty much. They have lasted between 1 and 2.5 years. I can usually negotiate something slightly better each time as well. Hardware works fine until something goes wrong and I drop it off a Geek Squad, use one of my other computers for a week, and then go select a replacement. It also covers charger replacements and accidental damage, so if your charger frays, they replace it (a big issue with Acer and Asus). I grant that the Geek Squad people aren't great at fixing things, but replacing? Excellent.
- alasdair_ 5y ago
  The dell xps 13 is a fantastic alternative to the thinkpad. It can come with Ubuntu preloaded and fully configured, something that was a major plus for me.
skissane 5y ago
We bought our son a consumer HP laptop. Its BIOS isn't locked, but has few settings exposed. HP intentionally cripples its consumer laptop BIOS to hide most of the settings. I can't get WoWLAN to work and wonder if the BIOS settings are why but there are no WoL settings exposed in the BIOS. There used to be a hidden key sequence to reveal an "Advanced" menu. It changed a few times. But on the more recent versions, there is no "Advanced" menu any more, it is removed completely. (They use InsydeH20 BIOS; you can find some reverse engineering tool to decode its menu structure – I heard rumours on forums the hidden menu was completely removed, the tool confirmed it.) May still be possible to inspect and change some undocumented settings with some more in-depth BIOS hacking. But I'm scared I'm going to brick the computer by doing that. I gave up. I guess next time I buy a computer I'll keep this in mind.
eps 5y ago
Back in late '00 I had a top of the line Acer. Two years of warranty. A week after the warranty ended the display lost 50% of its brightness, a day later the trackpad died and in a couple of days later speakers went kaput. Was rock solid while on warranty.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Lammy 5y ago

Keep this in mind when you read about Windows 11 requiring TPM 2.0, Secure Boot, and a camera/microphone.

twiclo 5y ago
Embrace, extend, extinguish
- dathinab 5y ago
  > TPM 2.0, Secure Boot, and a camera/microphone. Non of this prevent you from e.g. running Linux, I have been running Linux with Secure Boot since 5+ years. The problem is: - not being able to select a alternate boot device (for install medium, diagnostics etc., even a major problem if you only run windows IMHO) - not being able to set a custom platform key - the EFI "missing" some "standard" keys especially if combined with the previous point Sure temporary disabling secure boot for making Linux installs easier is nice, but not required for functionality. Similar legacy boot mode can be nice, but I haven't used it in ~10 years or so. As a side note you can use TPM for some usages comparable to e.g. a Yubikey (with drawbacks). So having a TPM can be quite useful, even on Linux.
  - bitwize 5y ago
    > Sure temporary disabling secure boot for making Linux installs easier is nice, but not required for functionality. For as long as Microsoft deigns to allow the signed shim to boot. Microsoft is the only key authority allowed by the main PC manufacturers. If you wish to become a key authority yourself, to allow your OS to boot on Secure Boot enabled devices without asking the end user to install additional keys (note: some devices may not allow this), then you must go to the OEMs individually and petition to be added to their key authority list. Prices from the OEMs that allow this are in the millions of dollars.
    - dathinab 5y ago
      > - not being able to set a custom platform key In which case this doesn't matter. (i.e. if you can set a custom platform key) Also Microsoft would not only need to stop signing shims but revoke all existing signatures.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

emsy 5y ago

Acer not giving this customer a refund probably cost them more money than the refund would‘ve. Such pettiness rarely pays off.

rblatz 5y ago

Is there anyway to flash the normal unlocked bios onto these machines?

ilikenwf 5y ago
Chip clip
- mdp2021 5y ago
  Is there a standardized procedure? Any links of choice?

josteink 5y ago

> but because Linux requires you to disable Secure Boot Patently false. I’m secure-booting all my Ubuntu installations and (iirc) I could do that too back when I used Fedora. Why do people keep repeating this FUD? Linux plus UEFI Secure Boot works fine as long as you use the signed version of GRUB. It’s not hard. Edit: Downvotes? Really? For clearing up a (way too) common misunderstanding about Linux and UEFI, with facts? Jeez guys.

LucidLynx 5y ago
I am sorry but, except maybe the latest versions of Fedora, you have to disable secure boot to boot on Linux the first time... I tried with Ubuntu, Pop-OS, Arch, Manjaro... All except Fedora require to disable Secure Boot.
- als0 5y ago
  Just want to say that my Ubuntu 18.04 works with secure boot enabled (and so do newer versions).
fiddlerwoaroof 5y ago
So, the ability to boot Linux with Secure Boot is entirely dependent on some third party being willing to sign the bootloader? No thanks
- josteink 5y ago
  I see I’ve landed so deep in the sea of FUD, beyond my ability to keep my feet dry, but I’ll make one last attempt at spreading actual knowledge. 1. Too guaranteed boot Linux with UEFI Secure Boot OOB without technical fiddling you have to use GRUB signed using keys trusted by Microsoft, like Canonical’s keys. So kinda, yes. 2. Many firmwares allows you to roll your own keys, meaning you don’t have to trust MS or Canonical or anyone else. So you have the choice between user-friendly (default) or improved security (requires fiddling). I personally think the default makes sense for most users, and I’m already 200 miles beyond proving that Linux can indeed use UEFI and Secure Boot. That’s an established fact for more than half a decade now. Not being able to disable those in BIOS won’t prevent you from loading Linux, and it would reflect better on the wider Linux-community if people stopped pushing such FUD. Canonical has a good write up here, if you want more details: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UEFI/SecureBoot

zogulus 5y ago

I bought an Acer laptop a while ago, then I found out the support they sold me was through a third party that had terrible customer service and they never upgraded the drivers after shipping, which made the laptop useless a couple of years down the line. I learnt my lesson though, never by from Acer.

krylon 5y ago
From what I've heard, Acer's support is nothing to brag about either. I never owned one myself, but I've heard complaints about their laptops from several people regarding reliability/longevity. At the last company I worked at, we had two beamers made Acer, both broke within six weeks, we sent them in for repair, when they came back, one of them still didn't work.

ilikenwf 5y ago

Assuming these use 4 pin SOIC chips, a programmer and chip clip will get you started...back it up with flashrom and see if you can just modify the settings there, sometimes you can with open source tools, other times you need leaked AMI etc tools. Beyond that, you may be able to find a way to remove the restriction and flash with your programmer, or use the bios from their website, but you have to be careful in case machine specific things like serial, etc are overwritten.

solarkraft 5y ago
Okay, but they should pay damages for the time everyone would need to waste on this bullshit.
mdp2021 5y ago
These are good hints for special cases, but when one buys a computer it must remain implied: it is owned not licensed, it is bought to be used according to need not according to the vendor's assumptions. It must be open - you want to install any OS, you can easily install any OS (and you surely must not be bound with the provided one). Strictly.

LucidLynx 5y ago

> He explained that all computer vendors do this to one extent to another, such as Apple with iPhones, and refused to provide me any means to unlock it no matter how technical I am. I bought a Razer Blade 15 two weeks ago during Amazon sales - once arrived I opened it and upgraded the SSD from 256GBytes to 1TBytes without any issue, and it works really good on Arch... So, Acer, not all computer vendors are doing this shit.

ivraatiems 5y ago
Just throwing in a surprising second vote of support for Razer's laptop line. I've never owned a laptop that didn't have a ton of quirks, and my Razer Blade Stealth isn't an exception - but even given that, it's one of the best laptops I've ever owned. It looks beautiful, it's light, battery lasts a really long time, it handles any game I throw at it at 1080p with reasonable framerates, so I can game while traveling. The biggest issue I've had with it was actually with the charger - the USB C port on the charger snapped off after just a few months of reasonable use. Razer replaced it for free, but that's when I learned that any charger less than 100watts results in the battery draining under load when plugged in. The build quality of the laptop itself, though, is excellent. I've done BIOS updates, etc., and have had no issues.
- loie 5y ago
  I have a Dell 5401 for work, same story with USB-C charging. Its power brick is 90W but the USB-C block I have can only do 60W max per port. Windows will whine about a "slow USB charger connected" but other than that it works fine for the typical MS Office stuff. It will drain if I really push it though.
- ineedasername 5y ago
  Wow, 100W seems very underpowered as a charger for a gaming laptop. USB-C really isn't a good choice in this case.
  - deadmutex 5y ago
    FYI, USB-C 2.1 can charge at 240W. I really prefer the simplicity of not having to drag around a laptop brick, and love the simplicity of having one cable to carry all the signals I need (USB, DisplayPort, Power, etc.)

BrandoElFollito 5y ago

This is interesting, the law in France would protect the customer anyway - but I wonder why not simply sending it back to Amazon?

MaxBarraclough 5y ago
By the sounds of it they did: > I replied I will simply complain to Amazon and seek a refund through them
- BrandoElFollito 5y ago
  Ah, that's right. I was a bit confused because in France you deal with the vendor, not the producer. I would ask Amazon why this is blocked and that they are selling something that is not proper (and Amazon cannot refer me to the producer because they are responsible). I now got the fact that he was trying to make the laptop work, rather than just getting a refund.

watsocd 5y ago

I have purchased some ACER laptops for a charity and a customer I support. I used to consider ACER to be one of the good guys and more open source/Linux friendly. I will NEVER trust them again!!!!

dusted 5y ago

how is this not illegal ?

dstaley 5y ago

Before we all grab our pitchforks, maybe we should take a moment and realize that this is a single review on Amazon that's lacking in important details. The headline here reads "Acer disables BIOS for laptops sold through Amazon", but the review mentions that they're able to get into the BIOS. They're only unable to change the boot order, which is a lot different from "disables BIOS". Furthermore, I don't entirely understand why the reviewer tried to get a refund from Acer when they purchased it from Amazon. I bet there's a non-nefarious explanation for the disabled setting that the reviewer saw. Sadly with a $1,530 cost, I don't expect anyone here to buy the laptop just for research purposes!

logifail 5y ago
> I bet there's a non-nefarious explanation for the disabled setting [..] Citation needed? There was once a time when you purchased a product you owned it, and were allowed to do devious stuff like "Change The Boot Order". Apparently that's now out of bounds. I despair.
- paublyrne 5y ago
  > Citation needed? Op is making a bet not a claim.
  - gmiller123456 5y ago
    I'll take that bet. Unfortunately we'd never agree when it's settled. A better bet would be to provide a non-nefarious answer as to why this isn't part of the product description.
FullyFunctional 5y ago
Another commenter has confirmed this. Grab pitchforks.
- annoyingnoob 5y ago
  Or an attorney.

duxup 5y ago

>but was told that Acer locks the BIOS on all computers shipped through Amazon in order to "protect" customers from changing things that might break the computer if they don't know what they're doing. That doesn't make any sense. Why would you lock it because it was sold through Amazon? Is it accessible if you buy it direct from Acer? Sounds like a customer support person just made up a reason.

derefr 5y ago
Perhaps it’s a workaround for Amazon’s commingled-stock problem. Third party can’t override Secure Boot to install a root kit and then return the laptop in a way that ends up with it commingled with “new” stock, if third parties can’t write to CMOS memory in the first place. (Of course, they could still install a “hard mod” root kit by e.g. reflashing the BIOS through its JTAG pins, or just desoldering it and soldering on something else. But that requires a much higher tier of resources, one that also enables other classes of attacks that don’t involve putting the stock back into the first-party warehouse.)
- adriancr 5y ago
  just wondering if its legal to sell returned products as new. I thought they were sold as refurbished/second chance with a discount.
  - cortesoft 5y ago
    Even if it is illegal, lots of sellers on Amazon break the law... and since they co-mingle inventory from different sellers, one bad seller trying to pass off returns as new could contaminate every seller's products.
- fomine3 5y ago
  This looks plausible. Also swap and return fraud can be blocked by this restriction.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Amazon has a large problem with fraudulent parts and co-mingled stock and customers returning swapped parts and not checking. Could be protection against that?

cmeacham98 5y ago

Assuming the BIOS lock also prevents you from adding your own keys this fails the Windows Compatibility Program requirements (i.e. Microsoft's requirements for OEMs to be able to pre-install Windows). From https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/device-experiences/oem-secure-boot#secure-boot-requirements https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/design/dev... > The platform must come provisioned with the correct keys in the UEFI Signature database (db) to allow Windows to boot. It must also support secure authenticated updates to the databases. I'm not sure how to contact Microsoft about this issue though.

AshamedCaptain 5y ago
I believe that allowing updating the database from Windows itself is enough to satisfy the requirement. No need to allow doing it from firmware setup. Microsoft's own devices do it that way.
jfrunyon 5y ago
> It must also support secure authenticated updates to the databases. This does not imply "the user must be able to add their own keys". (Particularly as that would not usually be "authenticated"). Secure Boot keys include keys which (in theory) are used to authenticate an update to the key database.
jonwest 5y ago
Maybe unrelated to your post, but assuming you can’t change the boot order how could you feasibly reinstall the OS if you ran into malware or other issues?

solarkraft 5y ago

> the computer defaulted to a lower resolution out of the box for some reason. The BIOS locking is obviously egregious and they deserve anything from refunding this person to a class action lawsuit. But wow. That sounds like "wait, you mean people are going to use this as a computer?" style product management.

jonnycomputer 5y ago

Acer: noted. What ass-hattery.

stonewareslord 5y ago

Is the source of this a single Amazon review?

nrjames 5y ago
No, I’m OP and experienced it first hand. It was after struggling for hours and calling Acer support that I found this review, which accurately describes the problem/situation. I did not write the Amazon review. FWIW, I submitted a claim to my credit card extended warranty insurance perk but have yet to hear back.

sschueller 5y ago

We are entering the dark ages rapidly. Soon you will no longer be allowed to install what you want. Sorry! That app is illegal now. All under the bullshit reason of safety/security. We can have both without setting everything up for an orwellian state.

conradfr 5y ago
Coincidentally last year (and this year) in many places in the world you couldn't go where you wanted for the same reason.
phendrenad2 5y ago
Every year since 1995 has been "The Year of Not Being Able To Install What You Want". And yet, here we are, still sideloading on Android and running bare .EXEs on Windows. It's the hot take that keeps giving!
- josephcsible 5y ago
  It started on just niche devices like the TiVo. It's been slowly branching out to more and more devices since then. Also, have you never seen an Android device where sideloading was disabled and you couldn't re-enable it? Because I have.
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    Is it really expanding though? The market for devices is also expanding. Don't confuse absolute numbers with relative numbers. Of course I have encountered devices that don't allow sideloading, are you saying that is expanding also? Or has "rooting" always been something many carriers and manufacturers sought to disable?
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      In both absolute and relative terms. Basically every new computing device that's not a desktop or laptop is locked down in some way, and even some laptops are locked down too (e.g., Windows RT on ARM laptops).

haunter 5y ago

Yet the first video on Youtube shows that you can boot from USB https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EARdWsgvAXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EARdWsgvAXo I give the benefit of doubt that the person just didn't know how to do it (also the source is this single Amazon review? Pretty low for HN tbh) Here is another video with Ubuntu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap386n98j0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ap386n98j0U There is even a Hackintosh tutorial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJmttuumVU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpJmttuumVU /r/linux_gaming also have several positive threads Edit: And of course I'm instantly downvoted

de_Selby 5y ago
You clearly didn't read the review. They say it is only for models sold through Amazon
- haunter 5y ago
  Yet there is no other proof beyond that one single Amazon review I mean I'm all in for some good HN rage but there is no proof beyond that one person. Also no other review mentions this problem (just by searching around). Linux distros can pass Secure Boot just fine but maybe the reviewer just simply didn't know that Honestly if I were in the US I'd just buy one to test this then send it back to Amazon because I very much doubt it's true
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    There are two people right in this HN thread confirming this...

bserge 5y ago

Honestly, fuck all new laptops. I'm working on a custom PC case that's 36x29x15cm and can fit standard components so I have a proper computer that I own and can carry around in average sized luggage. Would anyone be interested in something like that btw? Fits mATX boards, most graphics cards (sadly not the top end), 4x 2.5 drives (plus onboard NVMe/mSATA), standard ATX PSUs and has a BIOS reset button.

zapdrive 5y ago
Checkout framework laptop [0]. Pretty sick. It's a really modular laptop focused on reusability. I would order one if they accepted crypto. 0: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/
- GuB-42 5y ago
  There are actually plenty of modular laptops. This one doesn't look terrible but there are plenty of other options. Thinkpads have a pretty good reputation. You can also get big "desktop in a laptop" style PCs, and generally, the thick gaming laptops tend to be easy to work with. You can look at Clevo, which is known for being the OEM for many off-brand PCs, notably System76. If you are a bit more extreme, you can look at Panasonic Toughbooks: hardened, industrial laptops with plenty of swapable modules. Framework have the advantage of being thin and light, most modular laptops are on the big side. It means it fits a niche. However, if re-usability is your goal, keep in mind that it is a startup, it may fail, and if that happens, forget about support and spare parts. By comparison, Lenovo is not going anywhere.
  - Sr_developer 5y ago
    > And generally, the thick gaming laptops tend to be easy to work with. I confirm, I havent bought one yet, but the other day I saw this laptop: https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-IPS-Type-i5-10300H-Keyboard-FX706LI-ES53/dp/B08ZLC661T https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-IPS-Type-i5-10300H-Keyboard-FX70... 17 inches, a 144hz screen,GTX 1650, 512 GB SSD and space for 2 more!. You can add a 4 TB HD, a 1GB SSD, and change the RAM to 32 GB and get a monster machine for about 1200 USD. With a Clevo (and other similar brands) you can have even more customization options, although I expect them to be more expensive.

0x_rs 5y ago

I guess this will explode in popularity now, because it's a heinous behavior and what's (clearly) ridiculous is that it would be discovered out of the box if not long parted with it making returns needlessly more complicated. Besides, it'd catch by surprise the majority of IT people, I've never read about anything like this in retail.

MaxBarraclough 5y ago

The link without the 'ref' tracking argument: https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/

dang 5y ago
Changed to that from https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/ref=cm_cr_dp_d_rvw_ttl?ie=UTF8&ASIN=B07YM938TP https://www.amazon.com/gp/customer-reviews/RKILN7HFLF4CS/ref.... Thanks!

boba7 5y ago

Acer is Seagate of Laptop manufacturers.

timbit42 5y ago
More like the JTS of...

hughrr 5y ago

Acer have always sold utter barrel scraping dog shit machines with worthless warranty made of the lowest bidding vendor's parts. I'm surprised anyone even looks in that direction these days. In fact I'm surprised they are even still going. And as for this, I am also not even surprised if it's happening. If you're after a new laptop, buy Apple or a business grade unit from Lenovo (T/X/P series). If you can't afford that or don't want to afford it, buy a 2-3 year old machine from a larger refurbisher from the same list. If you shop around you can pick up a previous gen machine with 3 years next business day warranty on it sealed new for less than half current retail proce. I got a ryzen T495 for 500 GBP here with 3 years NBD on it.

arp242 5y ago
I bought a second-hand E585 for €500 last year; works like a charm. The 15" isn't what I would have chosen myself (I previously had an X270 that unfortunately broke after a fall), but it works well enough. If you're not looking for latest cutting-edge performance then you're usually better off buying a second-hand ThinkPad if available in your area.

ww520 5y ago

Just want to point out the A-to-Z Guarantee from Amazon. When you're dealing with problematic sellers who refuse to remedy defects, mention the A-Z and watch them cave. Couple A-to-Z complaints and the seller is kicked out Amazon. https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=GQ37ZCNECJKTFYQV https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=...

meowster 5y ago
> mention the A-Z and watch them cave In that case, don't mention it, just use it.

notaplumber 5y ago

I don't buy this. Some Acer laptops in the past have required that you set a Supervisor BIOS password in order to change the Secure Boot settings, but after you do that you can set the password to blank to clear it again.

zozbot234 5y ago
Good point, this is definitely a thing on some hardware. Still crappy, but not a huge deal breaker.
zoomablemind 5y ago
+1 on the need to set the Supervisor PW in BIOS, otherwise the settings were greyed out. Puzzling indeed, I had to deal with it back some 5 years ago. Definitely found this answer on forums rather than from mfgr suport pages/docs. However in this case it may be a different "lockdown" issue, though quite an odd choice reasoning-wise.
- nrjames 5y ago
  With this machine, if purchased from Amazon, the settings remain greyed out even if you set the Supervisor PW. That is not the case if you buy it elsewhere.
josephcsible 5y ago
Even if this is the case, it's still terrible that such unintuitive, undiscoverable behavior (1) isn't documented as being the case, and (2) isn't known and explained by their tech support. And why would it only work like this if you bought from Amazon?
nrjames 5y ago
You can do that on this laptop if you don’t buy it from Amazon. There are plenty of YouTube videos showing how. If you but it from Amazon, like I did, you can set/change BIOS passwords, but Secure Boot cannot be changed and you cannot add a USB drive to the boot order. I spent hours trying to find a workaround.

halotrope 5y ago

We should be very careful about surrendering the demand for free, open general computing for whatever reason. Convenience, networks and pricing are driving a trend towards trusted, locked-down computing. It never happens all at once. Always one step at a time.

ineedasername 5y ago

It says "Amazon", but it's specific to Acer: does Acer do this on laptop sold directly or through other retail outlets?

timbit42 5y ago
Yes. Walmart.

pengaru 5y ago

Acer has always been trash, it just turns out trash is a trajectory; it gets even more trashy through the passage time.

ineedasername 5y ago

How would this be done? Hardware or software layer? Why would this be done? People add secondary drives, may need to boot from USB, etc. It seems like a weird limitation.

vxNsr 5y ago

In this situation it’s often best to employ what many seasoned consumers call the HUCA strategy: Hang Up; Call Again. I’ve used this in many scenarios, with much success. It does mean you might on hold for a bit, so it’s best to plan mindless tasks that can be quickly interrupted while doing this, but for big ticket items where there isn’t much recourse it’s often worth it. As soon as it becomes clear the person on the other end can’t help say “goodbye” and hang up. Call right back and hopefully you’ll get a more helpful person. It’s very possible there is a way to get into the BIOS, and the rep just didn’t know it but didn’t wanna come off as ignorant.

barnyfried 5y ago

What you are witnessing young fool is the intentional, extremely profitable business of "deprecating" "general purpose computers". Did you seriously think that M1 macbook was about anything but escaping the legal definition (there is one) of a general purpose computer. If you port for the M1 chip you have gone to the dark side. Ill be here if you ever find your way back. This reminds me of a conversation I overheard about 10 years ago, "I tried to delete my account on facebook I think all they are doing is scraping my personal information" You folks here, yc grads, you either think you have us all fooled or you as dumb as rocks. Neither is likely true but there will be consequences nonetheless. Perhaps move to bitcoin island and spend your riches on some margaritas and a mud hut.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

joedoejr 5y ago

You guys discussing a complete bs review from a technically uneducated person which was called “lamer” long time ago. “1920x1080, but looks a little pixelated” seriously can’t you just tell for sure what resolution do you have in OS? Acer does not sign it’s laptop BIOSes and it is trivial to read it and unlock/unhide all possible options with ready to use GUI applications from BIOS vendors. This is what people doing for decades, and for Thinkpads you will need a flash programmer and hex editor. So even if there is secure boot lock which i highly doubt, because no relevant detail was present in the review, you can solve it (hack the device that never meant for whatever you want it to do) at least three different ways and the easiest one is not bugging official support, but ask on forums like win-raid and get your instructions and ready to use bios in pm in several days if he absolutely can’t set UEFI himself. I wonder what happen with snowflake when he learn that his Tesla top speed and range also software blocked.

crazygringo 5y ago

None of this makes much sense to me... First, I'm just confused why Acer would even do this. At first I thought they'd be charging extra $ to unlock the BIOS or something, but the review doesn't mention any of that. It's just... locked period? Businesses usually only do things they have a financial incentive for, but I'm not seeing what the incentive is here. Does anyone have any idea? Second, what is the "support number in the pamphlet that came with the computer" that wasn't Acer? Is it normal for computer manufacturers to provide a third-party support service or something? Third... why even bother trying to return it to Acer? Probably the #1 reason to buy from Amazon is you can return almost everything to Amazon no-questions-asked for a full refund within 30 days.

worewood 5y ago
Incentive is preventing third- party repair and charging absurd rates for it just like Apple

pkulak 5y ago

I'm wavering between a Dell and System76. I know the Dell will have better hardware... but man, at least the System76 will work with Linux, and if not, I'll have support. This only pushes me further toward System76.

Foomf 5y ago
Dell sells linux laptops.

hvinayan 5y ago

You could maybe try modifying the UEFI variables from within windows.

G3rn0ti 5y ago

I am a little surprised because I am actually quite fond of Acer’s laptops. That’s because I repaired two of them and I was delighted how easy they were to work with and how cheap the repairs were. On the last one (a 2016 Acer Aspire E5) I replaced its IPS panel twice because the owner (my GF) had repeatedly stepped on it. That was pretty easy: Removing the screen bezel, scan the panel’s QR code revealing its part number, ordering replacement on ebay (€70, delivery from one day to another), loosening four screws and replacing the old panel. The second time I additionally had to replace the panel’s housing and transfer hinges (bending one back into form), cables, camera modules and WiFi antennas which was done in under an hour. Again, all modules and individual parts carried a QR code for easy sourcing of replacements. The replacement housing had cost me only €30. I also replaced the laptop’s battery before (after 2.5 years of intense usage) — €50, the battery was not even screwed in or glued but just held by the casing. So easy peasy replacement. In the end we sold the poor and unloved thing — repaired, well-working and 4 years old — for €200 on Ebay. Just because my GF longed for a MacBook Air for over 1400 bucks that surely looks great but is neither upgradable nor well repairable … I must admit I never tried to change the boot order on these systems, so I might have overlooked the crippled BIOS. But ever since I’ve been recommending mid-range Acer laptops for the great price and repairability and been thinking of replacing my Fujitsu Siemens business laptop with an Acer. Photos from the last repair: https://www.facebook.com/1483420419/posts/10224056908918861/?d=n https://www.facebook.com/1483420419/posts/10224056908918861/...

mdp2021 5y ago

A www list of "Product name | Experiences installing Linux" would be really, really needed. The existing ones I know are very incomplete. My last purchase experience was very successful (30 mins install including a compressed dd backup of the original hd contents. Before buying the product I had web-searched for other people's experiences), but it is absurd that one may have doubts about the process working (flawlessly, effortlessly...). It is like buying a car still wondering "will it work in my weather". This definitely should not happen. EDIT: one trick I use, that some may find useful, to get corroborations about Linux running on a product: the Geekbench results browser. The Geekbench benchmark results are uploaded to browser.geekbench.com, and the 'Platform' column may contain 'Linux'. So, for example, https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=acer https://browser.geekbench.com/v4/cpu/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q... shows e.g. that a few days ago the benchmark was run on an Acer Aspire V5-552G using Ubuntu 14.04.2 etc... EDIT2: of course the information about which this page revolves is based on laptops which are locked under some conditions, so techniques like the one I mentioned are not full warranty - they guarantee that in some instances of the product Linux may work.

Folkert 5y ago

You should be able to run Linux. See the review on https://www.saltmoney.org/best-laptops-for-kali-linux/ https://www.saltmoney.org/best-laptops-for-kali-linux/. Makes you wander if Amazon pays for these re^H^Hviews.

mtzaldo 5y ago

I bought an acer laptop last year. The same happened to me. What I did was to set a bios password and the I was able to change the boot order. Tldr; set a bios password

ctf1er 5y ago

I bought an Acer Nitro laptop through amazon about a year ago(i7, 16GB, rtx2060.) For me, all bios settings were available just some hidden by default, so it only took a quick google. Added hds and did a dual boot. I'm happy with mine which was $150-200 cheaper than cheapest equivalent hardware. I just have to live with the ugly red gamer look but otherwise nice design. My only issue is that when lifting with one hand grabbing the bottom right corner, the case flexes just enough to make scary sounds right where the spinning disk is located(me handling it badly, but I do like aluminum.) Some have mentioned cooling; mine is well done and the fan software actually nice. Good value.

hda2 5y ago

Over a decade ago, I had a Acer laptop that literally burnt its own CPU. I never bought from them after that. How do you even burn a CPU!

gowld 5y ago

The Acer was cheaper than System76 but didn't actually work for the function System76 advertises, which Acer didn't advertise. That's why System76 charges more.

ChrisArchitect 5y ago

is BiosBug unlocker related? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22046928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22046928