13 ms·

Mozilla seems to be having their plate full just keeping Firefox in running with Chromium and Safari, at least as a distant, but still alive, third. And slowly

Mozilla seems to be having their plate full just keeping Firefox in running with Chromium and Safari, at least as a distant, but still alive, third. And slowly falling further behind. I'm coming across more than a few sites which are subtly broken in Firefox, something that virtually never happened all these years. It is sad that they have not managed to become the Linux of web browsers, though Linux on the desktop sort of is similar to Firefox, getting less relevant by the year. There was a window of several years during which you could almost believe free/open source software would really dominate the world, but instead it has been co-opted into providing the infrastructure layer while consumer facing software and devices have become more locked down, black boxes than ever before.

stuaxo 5y ago
Having Mozilla structured so that the money coming in doesn't go to developing the browser seems like a massive mistake.
lordofgibbons 5y ago
>though Linux on the desktop sort of is similar to Firefox, getting less relevant by the year. It seems like Linux on desktop has never been more popular according to these sites: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-201101-202105 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide... https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share... It's not surprising either, considering all of the ads and metrics collection Microsoft has added into windows recently.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  Yeah, desktop Linux isn't losing any (or gaining much) marketshare. Firefox went from having more than half the market to being a rounding error.
  - akie 5y ago
    And we're all worse off because of it.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  Whether Linux on the desktop is relevant in general also depends on the relevance of the desktop itself. If you conclude that desktop is getting less relevant (as I think parent alluded to in the last paragraph), then its improvement within the segment doesn't need to be sufficient.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    When I plug my tablet or laptop into a docking station, it is a desktop. In what concerns Android and ChromeOS, it is as relevant as WSL on Windows for the regular consumer, specially on Android where it isn't part of public APIs.
- danpattn 5y ago
  I've been using Linux for 7 years. It has never been better than it is now and every year the alternatives look worse and worse. I honestly get sick every time I try to use Windows. The ads and dark patterns are glaringly apparent once you are used to Linux desktops.
  - 6equj5 5y ago
    About 2 years for me, and it already feels like: https://youtu.be/tXLVXtAI46o?t=5 https://youtu.be/tXLVXtAI46o?t=5 The big green guy is the new Logitech software suite that I need to use to set the sidetone on my new headset, which asks you at install time whether you want to enable telemetry yet doesn't actually let you proceed until "yes" is checked, and which is completely redundant to yet distinct from the old suite (which new versions of the same headset model don't work with) and works less well. The other aliens are update pop-ups.
MattGaiser 5y ago
> I'm coming across more than a few sites which are subtly broken in Firefox, something that virtually never happened all these years. At a prior organization, I was there when they dropped support for Firefox. Basically got one bug report too many that was Firefox only and at that point the few users were just told to switch to Chrome. The small market share is accelerating its demise.
kouteiheika 5y ago
> Mozilla seems to be having their plate full just keeping Firefox in running with Chromium and Safari, at least as a distant, but still alive, third. And slowly falling further behind. If we're talking about the dwindling user base then yes, but if it's about falling behind technologically then it's Safari that is a distant third. Safari is the new Internet Explorer. Everyone has to support it due to its user base (which is most likely why you don't see many sites breaking under it), but at least from my own experience it's the most feature incomplete, buggy browser out there, and it takes the most amount of work to support. It's now a regular occurrence for me that I test something in Chromium and Firefox, and it works on both, but it's broken on Safari.
- wongarsu 5y ago
  And just like Internet Explorer, you need a specific operating system to even test against Safari. Just that it's even worse, considering the relative market shares of Windows vs Mac (outside of Silicon Valley startups)
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    You can test on other WebKit browsers, but yeah that is not a perfect replacement.
    - gosukiwi 5y ago
      Or use BrowserStack, but it's really slow and not free
    - bwindels 5y ago
      Gnome web has proven a great replacement for me, to reproduce safari specific bugs.
  - eitland 5y ago
    > And just like Internet Explorer, you need a specific operating system to even test against Safari. That's actually the only good reason I've seen for why Safari is the new IE. Chrome however is the new IE. I'll explain: - IE was technologically somewhat superior at its time, just like Chrome is now. - Only that when the competition was truly crushed, Microsoft couldn't justify spending money on it anymore. - The same will happen with Chrome as well only this time they will manage to find resources to kill adblocking first. ... for our safety, of course
wyager 5y ago
While I have not done substantive research myself, I have heard a number of personal complaints from (current and former) Mozilla people that very little of their funding actually goes to working on the core projects (like Firefox or Servo). They seem to have the same problem as Wikimedia where as they got more money, they spent an increasingly large fraction of it on bullshit outside the scope of their original purpose, hiring non-technical people (who are basically impossible to get rid of later on), etc. It’s much easier to downsize R&D than to downsize HR.
- eitland 5y ago
  Mozilla thinks their mission is something else than the worlds only true free modern browser. For them Firefox is only an income stream to fund their distractions^H actual mission.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > as they got more money, they spent an increasingly large fraction of it on bullshit outside the scope of their original purpose Is Rust bullshit? This organization beat Microsoft to create the modern open web, then developed Rust. That's pretty good so far.
  - ianbicking 5y ago
    Rust is cool, but it didn't advance Mozilla's mission.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      Mozilla's mission is end-user control and an open Internet. Rust significantly improves security in end-user systems, so I think it supports the mission.
      - pjmlp 5y ago
        Given most Web agencies have moved from having Firefox as a must support browser on the support matrix, and Rust still has a couple of decades before reaching C and C++ market adoption, the mission might be quite endangered. At least Rust has its own foundation, however just like ISO and other foundation based languages, lets see where the companies at the table take it.
gosukiwi 5y ago
> though Linux on the desktop sort of is similar to Firefox, getting less relevant by the year. Well... If you count WSL as Linux in the desktop, then I think it's doing quite well, but yeah.
shmerl 5y ago
> Linux on the desktop sort of is similar to Firefox, getting less relevant by the year. In what sense? Usage of Linux on the desktop is only growing.

stuaxo 5y ago

Having Mozilla structured so that the money coming in doesn't go to developing the browser seems like a massive mistake.

lordofgibbons 5y ago

>though Linux on the desktop sort of is similar to Firefox, getting less relevant by the year. It seems like Linux on desktop has never been more popular according to these sites: https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide/#monthly-201101-202105 https://gs.statcounter.com/os-market-share/desktop/worldwide... https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share.aspx https://www.netmarketshare.com/operating-system-market-share... It's not surprising either, considering all of the ads and metrics collection Microsoft has added into windows recently.

pessimizer 5y ago
Yeah, desktop Linux isn't losing any (or gaining much) marketshare. Firefox went from having more than half the market to being a rounding error.
- akie 5y ago
  And we're all worse off because of it.
rhn_mk1 5y ago
Whether Linux on the desktop is relevant in general also depends on the relevance of the desktop itself. If you conclude that desktop is getting less relevant (as I think parent alluded to in the last paragraph), then its improvement within the segment doesn't need to be sufficient.
- pjmlp 5y ago
  When I plug my tablet or laptop into a docking station, it is a desktop. In what concerns Android and ChromeOS, it is as relevant as WSL on Windows for the regular consumer, specially on Android where it isn't part of public APIs.
danpattn 5y ago
I've been using Linux for 7 years. It has never been better than it is now and every year the alternatives look worse and worse. I honestly get sick every time I try to use Windows. The ads and dark patterns are glaringly apparent once you are used to Linux desktops.
- 6equj5 5y ago
  About 2 years for me, and it already feels like: https://youtu.be/tXLVXtAI46o?t=5 https://youtu.be/tXLVXtAI46o?t=5 The big green guy is the new Logitech software suite that I need to use to set the sidetone on my new headset, which asks you at install time whether you want to enable telemetry yet doesn't actually let you proceed until "yes" is checked, and which is completely redundant to yet distinct from the old suite (which new versions of the same headset model don't work with) and works less well. The other aliens are update pop-ups.

MattGaiser 5y ago

> I'm coming across more than a few sites which are subtly broken in Firefox, something that virtually never happened all these years. At a prior organization, I was there when they dropped support for Firefox. Basically got one bug report too many that was Firefox only and at that point the few users were just told to switch to Chrome. The small market share is accelerating its demise.

kouteiheika 5y ago

> Mozilla seems to be having their plate full just keeping Firefox in running with Chromium and Safari, at least as a distant, but still alive, third. And slowly falling further behind. If we're talking about the dwindling user base then yes, but if it's about falling behind technologically then it's Safari that is a distant third. Safari is the new Internet Explorer. Everyone has to support it due to its user base (which is most likely why you don't see many sites breaking under it), but at least from my own experience it's the most feature incomplete, buggy browser out there, and it takes the most amount of work to support. It's now a regular occurrence for me that I test something in Chromium and Firefox, and it works on both, but it's broken on Safari.

wongarsu 5y ago
And just like Internet Explorer, you need a specific operating system to even test against Safari. Just that it's even worse, considering the relative market shares of Windows vs Mac (outside of Silicon Valley startups)
- CameronNemo 5y ago
  You can test on other WebKit browsers, but yeah that is not a perfect replacement.
  - gosukiwi 5y ago
    Or use BrowserStack, but it's really slow and not free
  - bwindels 5y ago
    Gnome web has proven a great replacement for me, to reproduce safari specific bugs.
- eitland 5y ago
  > And just like Internet Explorer, you need a specific operating system to even test against Safari. That's actually the only good reason I've seen for why Safari is the new IE. Chrome however is the new IE. I'll explain: - IE was technologically somewhat superior at its time, just like Chrome is now. - Only that when the competition was truly crushed, Microsoft couldn't justify spending money on it anymore. - The same will happen with Chrome as well only this time they will manage to find resources to kill adblocking first. ... for our safety, of course

wyager 5y ago

While I have not done substantive research myself, I have heard a number of personal complaints from (current and former) Mozilla people that very little of their funding actually goes to working on the core projects (like Firefox or Servo). They seem to have the same problem as Wikimedia where as they got more money, they spent an increasingly large fraction of it on bullshit outside the scope of their original purpose, hiring non-technical people (who are basically impossible to get rid of later on), etc. It’s much easier to downsize R&D than to downsize HR.

eitland 5y ago
Mozilla thinks their mission is something else than the worlds only true free modern browser. For them Firefox is only an income stream to fund their distractions^H actual mission.
wolverine876 5y ago
> as they got more money, they spent an increasingly large fraction of it on bullshit outside the scope of their original purpose Is Rust bullshit? This organization beat Microsoft to create the modern open web, then developed Rust. That's pretty good so far.
- ianbicking 5y ago
  Rust is cool, but it didn't advance Mozilla's mission.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Mozilla's mission is end-user control and an open Internet. Rust significantly improves security in end-user systems, so I think it supports the mission.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Given most Web agencies have moved from having Firefox as a must support browser on the support matrix, and Rust still has a couple of decades before reaching C and C++ market adoption, the mission might be quite endangered. At least Rust has its own foundation, however just like ISO and other foundation based languages, lets see where the companies at the table take it.

gosukiwi 5y ago

> though Linux on the desktop sort of is similar to Firefox, getting less relevant by the year. Well... If you count WSL as Linux in the desktop, then I think it's doing quite well, but yeah.

shmerl 5y ago

> Linux on the desktop sort of is similar to Firefox, getting less relevant by the year. In what sense? Usage of Linux on the desktop is only growing.