8 ms·

> Meanwhile Europe has become the place in the world with the higher standards of living Umm what? Have you seen the salaries and house prices in the EU. The

> Meanwhile Europe has become the place in the world with the higher standards of living Umm what? Have you seen the salaries and house prices in the EU. Their average salary is about $150k for software engineers, in the EU it's about 50k. None of the taxes or any other differences make up for that. Americans have got it easy.

dmitriid 5y ago
You do realize there are other people than software engineers?
deregulateMed 5y ago
Yeah OP is just factually incorrect here. On paper many countries are poorer, and on the ground you can see standard of living is either worse or slightly worse. Sure there is less corruption in EU healthcare, but outside of that sector Americans get better homes, cars, and disposable income.
- mebassett 5y ago
  OP is correct, actually. I am not sure how you define or measure "standard of living" but common measurements include human development index [1] and quality of life index [2]. by both measurements the US lags behind many european countries. life expectancy in the US has been declining [3]. and the corruption in US healthcare is massive [4], especially considering that it can be three times more expensive for worse outcomes, and because it takes up such a large portion of the economy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.j... [3] https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6753 https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6753 [4] https://mebassett.info/healthcare-ppp.html https://mebassett.info/healthcare-ppp.html PS Am a US citizen who lives in the UK and travels (or did precovid) to the east coast and west coast of the US and to EU capitals regularly.
- smhost 5y ago
  > besides for healthcare Ignoring people's actual health in exchange for more expensive things seems like a backwards metric.
- ftyers 5y ago
  Better in what respect? Larger? That's true, but is largely a reflection of land prices, and if you're able to steal the land it makes it a lot cheaper. In Europe most land was stolen a long time ago and there isn't so much to go around now. In terms of build quality here it is rubbish. Houses here have more in common with sheds than houses in most of Europe.
- hef19898 5y ago
  Is that why German cars are selling so well in the US, because US cars are better? I also doubt that on average US housing is better than European housing. Don't get even started with health care. All numbers I know show, that consumer debt is way lower in the EU than the US. A country is much more than just one of its higher paying industries, especially if that industry is such an outlier like SV.
orwin 5y ago
Ok, it's the first time i'll go into it here, and i'm probably not the best writer (especially in english), but this typical of the bourgeois mindset. You don't have to have capital (social/economic or cultural) to have the bourgeois mindset. It two things in my opinion: either you're aware that your capital, your capital esperance, or your comfort is iniquitous and you're justifying this iniquity by any myth or legend you can invent, either you're not even aware of the iniquity and how your less fortunate peers are doing. I've been thrice in the US. California, Ohio/West virginia, and New-York/Maryland. I've talked to people trying to get the tenderloin moving, i've talked to dockers and construction workers, and i've spent a lot of time with back-to landers but also "rednecks", ex-miners or truckers in WV. I guaranty you, a Polish trucker have a better life quality than a West Virginia one. And i would rather be a construction worker in europe, anywhere, even in Croatia, than in Maryland. At least i could hope to survive my 60s. Our standard of living don't mean much. I mean, i go sail as a leisure almost every day, i'm 2 minutes away from the sea (by foot), i've got enough money to buy a house outside the city if i want to, my main issue this day is that i need to weld a support on my bike to be able to bring my kite board with me, as the best place to kite is 20 minutes away, and doing it by bike would be shorter. Having more than 55k/yr at 30 wouldn't make me any happier. The new fablab and engineering "courses" i will try to make for the less fortunate kids of the city with 3 friends next year will probably though.
adrianN 5y ago
The standard of living in the US is pretty good if you're rich like a software developer. The standard of living in many EU countries is imo better than in the US for median income households. There are also many differences that are poorly reflected in standard-of-living calculations. For example I like living in dense cities with good public transport and good bikeability because I really don't like driving. Those are harder to find in the US than in the EU.
- pnutjam 5y ago
  It's not even that good if you're high income. High rent and housing prices suck most of that money out of the the working class.
MrBuddyCasino 5y ago
In this thread: typical euro cope. "muh socialized this and that, muh food / med / local vineyard / whatever." If Britain were a U.S. state, it would be the second-poorest, behind Alabama and before Mississippi. The economical decline will continue. As a euro, I'm embarrassed. 95% of people here do not get at all what the American Project is about, and which aspects are actually better and why.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
k__ 5y ago
The taxes might not. But the education and healthcare costs might. Also, you're much more likely to be shot or put into prison in the US, which are quite some costs too. I don't know the numbers, but it seems to me that despite being payed better, the average US citizen carries a much bigger risk to their life than the average EU citizen, even when you include the east of the EU.
settrans 5y ago
GP is right, if he’s only looking at Luxembourg and Switzerland. Otherwise, if you look at PPP-adjusted disposable income, even after factoring in non-monetary income (e.g. welfare), Europe is significantly poorer than US states[0]. If France were an American state, it would be the 8th poorest. [0] https://mises.org/wire/these-us-states-have-higher-incomes-nearly-every-european-country https://mises.org/wire/these-us-states-have-higher-incomes-n...
RajuVarghese 5y ago
> 150k for software engineers... That may be true in the Valley. The media US salary is $36k. Only about top 16% of the US population gets $150k aor over.
decafninja 5y ago
I wonder if SWE compensation is related to how valuable the profession is perceived too, by both employers and societies. Even in the US, the compensation is bimodal. You have companies like FAANGs where SWEs are paid into the mid or even upper six figures and even juniors are making six figures. Then you have most companies outside of the SV tech industry where you'd be lucky to break $200k (in a HCOL city) retiring after many decades of work. In terms of countries, the US now considers SWEs a "hot" or prestigious line of work. In many other countries, this is not the case. You're just another salaryman, far, far, far below the ranks of doctors, lawyers, accountants, government civil servants, etc. etc. and your compensation reflects that.

dmitriid 5y ago

You do realize there are other people than software engineers?

deregulateMed 5y ago

Yeah OP is just factually incorrect here. On paper many countries are poorer, and on the ground you can see standard of living is either worse or slightly worse. Sure there is less corruption in EU healthcare, but outside of that sector Americans get better homes, cars, and disposable income.

mebassett 5y ago
OP is correct, actually. I am not sure how you define or measure "standard of living" but common measurements include human development index [1] and quality of life index [2]. by both measurements the US lags behind many european countries. life expectancy in the US has been declining [3]. and the corruption in US healthcare is massive [4], especially considering that it can be three times more expensive for worse outcomes, and because it takes up such a large portion of the economy. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Dev... [2] https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.j... [3] https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6753 https://www.bmj.com/content/367/bmj.l6753 [4] https://mebassett.info/healthcare-ppp.html https://mebassett.info/healthcare-ppp.html PS Am a US citizen who lives in the UK and travels (or did precovid) to the east coast and west coast of the US and to EU capitals regularly.
smhost 5y ago
> besides for healthcare Ignoring people's actual health in exchange for more expensive things seems like a backwards metric.
ftyers 5y ago
Better in what respect? Larger? That's true, but is largely a reflection of land prices, and if you're able to steal the land it makes it a lot cheaper. In Europe most land was stolen a long time ago and there isn't so much to go around now. In terms of build quality here it is rubbish. Houses here have more in common with sheds than houses in most of Europe.
hef19898 5y ago
Is that why German cars are selling so well in the US, because US cars are better? I also doubt that on average US housing is better than European housing. Don't get even started with health care. All numbers I know show, that consumer debt is way lower in the EU than the US. A country is much more than just one of its higher paying industries, especially if that industry is such an outlier like SV.

orwin 5y ago

Ok, it's the first time i'll go into it here, and i'm probably not the best writer (especially in english), but this typical of the bourgeois mindset. You don't have to have capital (social/economic or cultural) to have the bourgeois mindset. It two things in my opinion: either you're aware that your capital, your capital esperance, or your comfort is iniquitous and you're justifying this iniquity by any myth or legend you can invent, either you're not even aware of the iniquity and how your less fortunate peers are doing. I've been thrice in the US. California, Ohio/West virginia, and New-York/Maryland. I've talked to people trying to get the tenderloin moving, i've talked to dockers and construction workers, and i've spent a lot of time with back-to landers but also "rednecks", ex-miners or truckers in WV. I guaranty you, a Polish trucker have a better life quality than a West Virginia one. And i would rather be a construction worker in europe, anywhere, even in Croatia, than in Maryland. At least i could hope to survive my 60s. Our standard of living don't mean much. I mean, i go sail as a leisure almost every day, i'm 2 minutes away from the sea (by foot), i've got enough money to buy a house outside the city if i want to, my main issue this day is that i need to weld a support on my bike to be able to bring my kite board with me, as the best place to kite is 20 minutes away, and doing it by bike would be shorter. Having more than 55k/yr at 30 wouldn't make me any happier. The new fablab and engineering "courses" i will try to make for the less fortunate kids of the city with 3 friends next year will probably though.

adrianN 5y ago

The standard of living in the US is pretty good if you're rich like a software developer. The standard of living in many EU countries is imo better than in the US for median income households. There are also many differences that are poorly reflected in standard-of-living calculations. For example I like living in dense cities with good public transport and good bikeability because I really don't like driving. Those are harder to find in the US than in the EU.

pnutjam 5y ago
It's not even that good if you're high income. High rent and housing prices suck most of that money out of the the working class.

MrBuddyCasino 5y ago

In this thread: typical euro cope. "muh socialized this and that, muh food / med / local vineyard / whatever." If Britain were a U.S. state, it would be the second-poorest, behind Alabama and before Mississippi. The economical decline will continue. As a euro, I'm embarrassed. 95% of people here do not get at all what the American Project is about, and which aspects are actually better and why.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

k__ 5y ago

The taxes might not. But the education and healthcare costs might. Also, you're much more likely to be shot or put into prison in the US, which are quite some costs too. I don't know the numbers, but it seems to me that despite being payed better, the average US citizen carries a much bigger risk to their life than the average EU citizen, even when you include the east of the EU.

settrans 5y ago

GP is right, if he’s only looking at Luxembourg and Switzerland. Otherwise, if you look at PPP-adjusted disposable income, even after factoring in non-monetary income (e.g. welfare), Europe is significantly poorer than US states[0]. If France were an American state, it would be the 8th poorest. [0] https://mises.org/wire/these-us-states-have-higher-incomes-nearly-every-european-country https://mises.org/wire/these-us-states-have-higher-incomes-n...

RajuVarghese 5y ago

> 150k for software engineers... That may be true in the Valley. The media US salary is $36k. Only about top 16% of the US population gets $150k aor over.

decafninja 5y ago

I wonder if SWE compensation is related to how valuable the profession is perceived too, by both employers and societies. Even in the US, the compensation is bimodal. You have companies like FAANGs where SWEs are paid into the mid or even upper six figures and even juniors are making six figures. Then you have most companies outside of the SV tech industry where you'd be lucky to break $200k (in a HCOL city) retiring after many decades of work. In terms of countries, the US now considers SWEs a "hot" or prestigious line of work. In many other countries, this is not the case. You're just another salaryman, far, far, far below the ranks of doctors, lawyers, accountants, government civil servants, etc. etc. and your compensation reflects that.