4 ms·

yes arm64, the twitter thread also said they didn't have to do any TPM tricks, it just worked. i read somewhere else only the installer now requires TPM, the OS

yes arm64, the twitter thread also said they didn't have to do any TPM tricks, it just worked. i read somewhere else only the installer now requires TPM, the OS boot does not, but that will change when it goes gold

mnouquet 5y ago
There was a post yesterday about someone installing it on a recent machine and then swapped the drive to an older allegedly "unsupported" old machine and it worked just fine. YMMV.
rntksi 5y ago
That's pretty interesting. Going off on a tangent here, but thinking of how most of the world ran Windows XP/Windows 7 on cracked versions, would it be possible that following the TPM requirement, someone would write a TPM emulator (or maybe some more clever hack) so that Windows 11 doesn't complain about those stuffs and just install/boot? (disclaimer: I have no idea how TPM works and have never had to use it...)
- salamandersauce 5y ago
  From what I've heard W11 in a VM won't require a TPM to install. So worst case install it to your HDD from VirtualBox and see what happens booting on bare metal?
  - mrlonglong 5y ago
    I installed the preview the other day and yes it works just fine under VirtualBox
- shadilay 5y ago
  As long as it's not validated via the unique manufacturers key in the TPM it's possible. Any other software/website will assume you have a working TPM if you are running Win11 and will likely break however so the experience will be somewhat unusable.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    Outside of the native OS modules using it for security (e.g. Windows Hello) I can't see many apps having a use for TPM let alone breaking. Perhaps DRM content will move towards using it at some point but it's always been a circus to get high tier DRM solutions to validate on Windows anyways, most just fallback to low validation with lower quality streams as is.
    - shadilay 5y ago
      If you don't think 'rightsholders' will jump on this like a fly on dung then you're naive. Everyone from Netflix to Getty Images to Adobe has been waiting for this.
      - zamadatix 5y ago
        As I said, "Perhaps DRM content will move towards using it at some point but it's always been a circus to get high tier DRM solutions to validate on Windows anyways". They may flock to it but just like SGX + HDCP 2.2 + IME is needed for Netflix to ship 4k to your PC it just means they still won't ship 4k to your PC unless you have a ridiculous set of requirements. As far as "getty images" websites don't have access to TPM and the DRM available for video (e.g. Widevine) is both more limited than the native stack (i.e. already can't be used for tier 1/2 DRM content) and for video only. Could the entire browser landscape change in the next few years to enable that? Sure, but it has nothing to do with TPM on Windows.
        shadilay 5y ago
        I'd say we're already seeing things go in that direction. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Plugins/Flash_to_HTML5/Video/DRM_and_authentication https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Plugins/Flash_to_HT...
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  It's probably easier and more likely that software crackers will patch out the TPM requirement and make pirate versions of Windows 11 that install without it. Emulating a TPM at the hardware level is possible but too much work when you can just buy the chips themselves--they aren't some magic unobtanium locked down thing, for example: https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/trusted-platform-module-tpm-add-on-boards-for-raspberry-pi/86878 https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/trusted-platfor... The problem is to get an old system to use it you'd have to also modify its bios to make it aware of the TPM (and figure out how to get access to the phsyical bus the TPM needs to interface with the motherboard). There is a lot of reverse engineering and work to do that sort of thing.
  - merb 5y ago
    > Emulating a TPM at the hardware level is possible but too much work good for us that amd does it for free, huh? https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/pro-security https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/pro-security (fTPM)
    - yrro 5y ago
      Where do the keys get strored? Flash in the CPU? UEFI variables? A second flash chip on the motherboard?
      - merb 5y ago
        it depends amd mostly uses its psp (platform security processor) of course security depends on amd's enclave. it basically uses ARM TrustZone, microsoft explained it in a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/msr-tr-2015-84.pdf https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... so the internal storage is eMMC with RPMB and a hardware fuse
monocasa 5y ago
I wouldn't be surprised if the ARM builds don't require a TPM, and they kick the can down the road WRT requiring equivalent functionality on ARM. TPMs are very, very x86. For instance that LPC bus they sit on is almost electrically the 8086 front side bus, just with a tiny state machine in front to serialize it (hence LPC: Low Pin Count 8086 Bus). There's of course equivalent security processors and domains on pretty much every ARM application soc, but the exact semantics of them (like pretty much everything in the ARM space that's outside of the actual CPU core complexes) is extremely heterogeneous. They might even be running in EL3 on the application cores themselves. Wrangling all of that is probably out of scope for W11 RTM.
- dstaley 5y ago
  The preview builds of Windows 11 don't enforce the TPM requirement.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    Sure, I'm talking about even the RTM build for ARM which is the first non preview ARM build. They've said that final builds will require TPMs, but I'm making the argument that there's a good chance this will only apply to x86 and won't apply to ARM builds.
sixothree 5y ago
I got Windows 11 via Windows Update for my Surface Pro 3. I'm pretty sure it only has TPM and not TPM 2.0.

mnouquet 5y ago

There was a post yesterday about someone installing it on a recent machine and then swapped the drive to an older allegedly "unsupported" old machine and it worked just fine. YMMV.

rntksi 5y ago

That's pretty interesting. Going off on a tangent here, but thinking of how most of the world ran Windows XP/Windows 7 on cracked versions, would it be possible that following the TPM requirement, someone would write a TPM emulator (or maybe some more clever hack) so that Windows 11 doesn't complain about those stuffs and just install/boot? (disclaimer: I have no idea how TPM works and have never had to use it...)

salamandersauce 5y ago
From what I've heard W11 in a VM won't require a TPM to install. So worst case install it to your HDD from VirtualBox and see what happens booting on bare metal?
- mrlonglong 5y ago
  I installed the preview the other day and yes it works just fine under VirtualBox
shadilay 5y ago
As long as it's not validated via the unique manufacturers key in the TPM it's possible. Any other software/website will assume you have a working TPM if you are running Win11 and will likely break however so the experience will be somewhat unusable.
- zamadatix 5y ago
  Outside of the native OS modules using it for security (e.g. Windows Hello) I can't see many apps having a use for TPM let alone breaking. Perhaps DRM content will move towards using it at some point but it's always been a circus to get high tier DRM solutions to validate on Windows anyways, most just fallback to low validation with lower quality streams as is.
  - shadilay 5y ago
    If you don't think 'rightsholders' will jump on this like a fly on dung then you're naive. Everyone from Netflix to Getty Images to Adobe has been waiting for this.
    - zamadatix 5y ago
      As I said, "Perhaps DRM content will move towards using it at some point but it's always been a circus to get high tier DRM solutions to validate on Windows anyways". They may flock to it but just like SGX + HDCP 2.2 + IME is needed for Netflix to ship 4k to your PC it just means they still won't ship 4k to your PC unless you have a ridiculous set of requirements. As far as "getty images" websites don't have access to TPM and the DRM available for video (e.g. Widevine) is both more limited than the native stack (i.e. already can't be used for tier 1/2 DRM content) and for video only. Could the entire browser landscape change in the next few years to enable that? Sure, but it has nothing to do with TPM on Windows.
      - shadilay 5y ago
        I'd say we're already seeing things go in that direction. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Plugins/Flash_to_HTML5/Video/DRM_and_authentication https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Plugins/Flash_to_HT...
qbasic_forever 5y ago
It's probably easier and more likely that software crackers will patch out the TPM requirement and make pirate versions of Windows 11 that install without it. Emulating a TPM at the hardware level is possible but too much work when you can just buy the chips themselves--they aren't some magic unobtanium locked down thing, for example: https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/trusted-platform-module-tpm-add-on-boards-for-raspberry-pi/86878 https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/trusted-platfor... The problem is to get an old system to use it you'd have to also modify its bios to make it aware of the TPM (and figure out how to get access to the phsyical bus the TPM needs to interface with the motherboard). There is a lot of reverse engineering and work to do that sort of thing.
- merb 5y ago
  > Emulating a TPM at the hardware level is possible but too much work good for us that amd does it for free, huh? https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/pro-security https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/pro-security (fTPM)
  - yrro 5y ago
    Where do the keys get strored? Flash in the CPU? UEFI variables? A second flash chip on the motherboard?
    - merb 5y ago
      it depends amd mostly uses its psp (platform security processor) of course security depends on amd's enclave. it basically uses ARM TrustZone, microsoft explained it in a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/msr-tr-2015-84.pdf https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... so the internal storage is eMMC with RPMB and a hardware fuse

monocasa 5y ago

I wouldn't be surprised if the ARM builds don't require a TPM, and they kick the can down the road WRT requiring equivalent functionality on ARM. TPMs are very, very x86. For instance that LPC bus they sit on is almost electrically the 8086 front side bus, just with a tiny state machine in front to serialize it (hence LPC: Low Pin Count 8086 Bus). There's of course equivalent security processors and domains on pretty much every ARM application soc, but the exact semantics of them (like pretty much everything in the ARM space that's outside of the actual CPU core complexes) is extremely heterogeneous. They might even be running in EL3 on the application cores themselves. Wrangling all of that is probably out of scope for W11 RTM.

dstaley 5y ago
The preview builds of Windows 11 don't enforce the TPM requirement.
- monocasa 5y ago
  Sure, I'm talking about even the RTM build for ARM which is the first non preview ARM build. They've said that final builds will require TPMs, but I'm making the argument that there's a good chance this will only apply to x86 and won't apply to ARM builds.

sixothree 5y ago

I got Windows 11 via Windows Update for my Surface Pro 3. I'm pretty sure it only has TPM and not TPM 2.0.