7 ms·
Windows 11 on Raspberry Pi 4
- shadilay 5y agoI wonder if MS will enforce the TPM requirement in the hobbyist space, like the RPi, or if ending the PC as an open platform is more important.
- rntksi 5y agoIs that a native build for ARM that's running? Impressive.
- flatiron 5y agoyes arm64, the twitter thread also said they didn't have to do any TPM tricks, it just worked. i read somewhere else only the installer now requires TPM, the OS boot does not, but that will change when it goes gold
- mnouquet 5y agoThere was a post yesterday about someone installing it on a recent machine and then swapped the drive to an older allegedly "unsupported" old machine and it worked just fine. YMMV.
- rntksi 5y agoThat's pretty interesting. Going off on a tangent here, but thinking of how most of the world ran Windows XP/Windows 7 on cracked versions, would it be possible that following the TPM requirement, someone would write a TPM emulator (or maybe some more clever hack) so that Windows 11 doesn't complain about those stuffs and just install/boot? (disclaimer: I have no idea how TPM works and have never had to use it...)
- salamandersauce 5y agoFrom what I've heard W11 in a VM won't require a TPM to install. So worst case install it to your HDD from VirtualBox and see what happens booting on bare metal?
- mrlonglong 5y agoI installed the preview the other day and yes it works just fine under VirtualBox
- shadilay 5y agoAs long as it's not validated via the unique manufacturers key in the TPM it's possible. Any other software/website will assume you have a working TPM if you are running Win11 and will likely break however so the experience will be somewhat unusable.
- zamadatix 5y agoOutside of the native OS modules using it for security (e.g. Windows Hello) I can't see many apps having a use for TPM let alone breaking. Perhaps DRM content will move towards using it at some point but it's always been a circus to get high tier DRM solutions to validate on Windows anyways, most just fallback to low validation with lower quality streams as is.
- shadilay 5y agoIf you don't think 'rightsholders' will jump on this like a fly on dung then you're naive. Everyone from Netflix to Getty Images to Adobe has been waiting for this.
- zamadatix 5y agoAs I said, "Perhaps DRM content will move towards using it at some point but it's always been a circus to get high tier DRM solutions to validate on Windows anyways". They may flock to it but just like SGX + HDCP 2.2 + IME is needed for Netflix to ship 4k to your PC it just means they still won't ship 4k to your PC unless you have a ridiculous set of requirements. As far as "getty images" websites don't have access to TPM and the DRM available for video (e.g. Widevine) is both more limited than the native stack (i.e. already can't be used for tier 1/2 DRM content) and for video only. Could the entire browser landscape change in the next few years to enable that? Sure, but it has nothing to do with TPM on Windows.
- shadilay 5y agoI'd say we're already seeing things go in that direction. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Plugins/Flash_to_HTML5/Video/DRM_and_authentication https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Plugins/Flash_to_HT...
- qbasic_forever 5y agoIt's probably easier and more likely that software crackers will patch out the TPM requirement and make pirate versions of Windows 11 that install without it. Emulating a TPM at the hardware level is possible but too much work when you can just buy the chips themselves--they aren't some magic unobtanium locked down thing, for example: https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/trusted-platform-module-tpm-add-on-boards-for-raspberry-pi/86878 https://www.digikey.com/catalog/en/partgroup/trusted-platfor... The problem is to get an old system to use it you'd have to also modify its bios to make it aware of the TPM (and figure out how to get access to the phsyical bus the TPM needs to interface with the motherboard). There is a lot of reverse engineering and work to do that sort of thing.
- merb 5y ago> Emulating a TPM at the hardware level is possible but too much work good for us that amd does it for free, huh? https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/pro-security https://www.amd.com/en/technologies/pro-security (fTPM)
- yrro 5y agoWhere do the keys get strored? Flash in the CPU? UEFI variables? A second flash chip on the motherboard?
- merb 5y agoit depends amd mostly uses its psp (platform security processor) of course security depends on amd's enclave. it basically uses ARM TrustZone, microsoft explained it in a paper: https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/msr-tr-2015-84.pdf https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/wp-content/uploads/... so the internal storage is eMMC with RPMB and a hardware fuse
- monocasa 5y agoI wouldn't be surprised if the ARM builds don't require a TPM, and they kick the can down the road WRT requiring equivalent functionality on ARM. TPMs are very, very x86. For instance that LPC bus they sit on is almost electrically the 8086 front side bus, just with a tiny state machine in front to serialize it (hence LPC: Low Pin Count 8086 Bus). There's of course equivalent security processors and domains on pretty much every ARM application soc, but the exact semantics of them (like pretty much everything in the ARM space that's outside of the actual CPU core complexes) is extremely heterogeneous. They might even be running in EL3 on the application cores themselves. Wrangling all of that is probably out of scope for W11 RTM.
- dstaley 5y agoThe preview builds of Windows 11 don't enforce the TPM requirement.
- monocasa 5y agoSure, I'm talking about even the RTM build for ARM which is the first non preview ARM build. They've said that final builds will require TPMs, but I'm making the argument that there's a good chance this will only apply to x86 and won't apply to ARM builds.
- sixothree 5y agoI got Windows 11 via Windows Update for my Surface Pro 3. I'm pretty sure it only has TPM and not TPM 2.0.
- gruez 5y agoAFAIK windows 10 already had official raspberry pi builds, so it's not too surprising.
- krylon 5y agoThey seem to be forever trailing far behind Microsoft's system, though. What version are they targetting now, 2003R2? Windows 7? It would be very interesting to see what happened, though, if a bunch of companies / government organizations would pool their resources to fund ReactOS development, if only to put the screws on Microsoft when negotiating new licenses. Like IBM mainframe customers putting Amdahl swag on their desks when negotiating with IBM salespeople to get a discount. If they achieve 100% compatibility, there could also be a significant market for a Windows-compatible system that will support device drivers and software written for old versions of Windows. In my last job, we had a number of customers still running Windows XP on SCADA boxes, because they needed to support some piece of hardware whose vendor had either gone out of business or stopped supporting that hardware, so XP was the last version of Windows with drivers available to support that hardware. One customer in particular still ran MS-DOS on a few machines for similar reasons - the vendor of their SCADA system had gone out of business ... a long time ago, it seems, and they were very reluctant to migrate to something more recent. It was really weird, because as I remember, some of these machines did not run DOS, but some ancient version of QNX running several virtual DOS machines for visualization stuff. (Okay, I'm rambling. I should lay off the coffee.)
- fomine3 5y agoOfficial Windows for RPi is Windows 10 IoT Core, not Windows 10. ARM Windows 10 license isn't sold separately but bundled to certificated device (like Surface X), but some hackers installs ARM Windows 10 image (that's for certified devices) to RPi without license.
- MrBuddyCasino 5y agoI have to admit that I'm puzzled why people are loosing their shit when an operating system that is built to run on an ARM device turns out to run on one of the most popular ARM devices in existence. Why?
- orra 5y agoEspecially given Windows NT, back when it was called that, was portable, and supported various RISC processors.
- dvfjsdhgfv 5y agoAnd this is what I hope ReactOS will become one day, in spite of Microsoft's FUD campaigns.
- edoceo 5y agoWhen working on Win2k it started off still trying to support MIPS and PPC but then shipped only x86 and Alpha
- krylon 5y agoI thought Win2k on the Alpha was cancelled, too, although they made a Beta. There was an article posted here on HN recently from 1999 about Microsoft cancelling Win2k on Alpha. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27603531 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27603531 (Sorry for being a smartass about it.)
- edoceo 5y agoI remember shipping SP6 and 6a still supporting 4 arch. And we were still testing 2k on x86 and Alpha in my group (NLB). Ages ago, can't hardly remember.
- qbasic_forever 5y agoThere is no retail version of Windows for ARM. It only comes pre-installed on ARM devices, or through some partner channel when you form a business deal to sell ARM devices. Last I saw the current way to get Windows on ARM was by extracting it from an old Windows IoT project build. So it's novel and interesting when someone figures out how to work around all these roadblocks to get Windows working on a consumer ARM SBC.
- conradev 5y agoYou can download ARM builds with the click of a button if you have an MSDN subscription. If you don't have one (I don't), there is a great website to download Windows update images directly from Microsoft (and turn them into ISOs): https://uupdump.net https://uupdump.net I downloaded a Windows 10 ARM64 ISO, loaded it into Parallels on my M1 MacBook Air, put in my product key, and it works great! (now, if only Visual Studio could be compiled for ARM64...)
- ThrowawayR2 5y agoThe installation procedure is documented by the same person at the link in the tweet (https://miyagadget.tokyo/archives/274 https://miyagadget.tokyo/archives/274) and Google Translate manages to produce an intelligible translation. Seems to be a straightforward process.
- geerlingguy 5y agoOn YouTube, user leepspvideo posted a full demo of it working and how he got it installed here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLb0d7zTsRY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLb0d7zTsRY Seems like it runs fine with any ARM64 software, though a bit slow since the CPU isn't very beefy.
- 0-_-0 5y agoNow I'm waiting for your YouTube video on it!
- xony 5y agoLooks like emulation
- ourmandave 5y agoYes, but to come full circle, can you run Doom on Windows 11 running on a Rasberry Pi 4?
- sixothree 5y agoor wsl?
- spicybright 5y agoA vm running 10, then a vm in that running 7, then vista, xp, ... until you can't do VMs anymore. Then you run doom.
- krylon 5y agoCan amd64 do nested virtualization? (I suppose you could use Bochs, but the resulting performance would be awful.) I remember reading that IBM mainframes running VM can do that, there was this story about some developers stacking nested VMs about six or seven levels (without much loss of performance). There also was another story involving Hercules, a mainframe emulator. Someone had an IBM mainframe running Linux inside a VM, running Hercules on the Linux VM, which in turn ran VM again, with a machine running Linux, which in turn ran Hercules... I'm very fuzzy on the details, but it was a crazy setup.
- als0 5y agoYes, amd64 can handle nested virtualization
- null4bl3 5y agoThis is an abomination
- jmkni 5y agoNice, looks like it's installable on the M1 Mac as well if you are running Windows 10 via Parallels. Interestingly, there's a message which says: > Your PC does not meet the minimum hardware requirements for Windows 11. Your device may continue to receive insider preview builds until Windows 11 is generally available, at which time it is recommended to clean install Windows 10 I'm guessing that's at least partly a TPM issue. However, it's downloading ok via Windows Update. I wonder what the future of Parallels is. Windows ARM runs surprisingly well on it, but it's a Preview build as well, as MS haven't released it as a stand alone product.
- fomine3 5y agoTPM can be emulated without hassle, as QEMU/VMware does.
- jordemort 5y agoIs it sad that I'm mostly excited about this because I want an easy and supported way to run Android apps on a Pi 4?
- CarelessExpert 5y agoI take it Linux + Anbox can't do the job?
- jordemort 5y agoI haven't have a great deal of success with Anbox
- jll29 5y agoI don't need Windows 11 - I have had X/11 (aka The X Window System, Version 11) for a while, which supported mice with 16 keys already in the last millennium.
- rvz 5y agoOk then, have fun living under a rock and being stuck in the legacy 1970s, whilst we move on from that and use modern operating systems like Fuchsia.
- brundolf 5y ago> Where did you stick the TPM chip Lol
- cush 5y agoYou laugh now. Wait till tomorrow's HN rage-thread about how Windows 11 doesn't run on Raspberry Pi 3.