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Hi Cliff, I'm an independent amazon consultant. Your Amazon problems would be solved with a regular USPTO trademark. They don't recognize common-law trademarks

Hi Cliff, I'm an independent amazon consultant. Your Amazon problems would be solved with a regular USPTO trademark. They don't recognize common-law trademarks because they are heavily arguable in litigation. USPTO is a database of trademarks already scrutinized by trademark attorneys and government. It's not perfect, but it is a collection that Amazon recognizes. You can do this for $2000-ish and never think about it again. then GS1.org for barcodes Now you can sell your bottles in museum gift-shops!

hhh 5y ago
While this would probably work, it seems insane to me that this would be the only thing to protect his listing from a completely different category of product being merged with another.
- Accujack 5y ago
  You're not wrong. Because Amazon's system is insane unless you realize it's designed only for the benefit of the corporation, not for any kind of fairness or quality.
  - krferriter 5y ago
    The success of Amazon retail is in part because of the ~feature~ of seamless, rampant IP infringement and zero legal or financial liability on the part of Amazon for making money off it.
    - greyhair 5y ago
      Which has gotten worse over time, and one of the several reasons why my Prime membership will not renew this year.
  - cbsmith 5y ago
    What's unfortunate is that ideally fairness & quality should be in the interests of the marketplace.
  - cwkoss 5y ago
    Has there been a study on the volume of counterfeit goods flowing through amazon's marketplace? Seems likely they are now the #1 seller of counterfeit goods globally, by a decent margin.
    - nr2x 5y ago
      I’ll bet a six pack of decent beer the % of all sales that are counterfeit goods is double digits.
- spacemark 5y ago
  ...or the fact that the only way to get this information is a HN comment from an independent Amazon consultant.
- freeopinion 5y ago
  Let's say that Acme is a low-down, dirty-rotten, rip-off con who has been usurping somebody else's trademark to make a quick buck with counterfeit merchandise. Why would Amazon merge the reviews of that product with the reviews of the authentic, high-quality, reputable Chinese vendor's actual product? Why does Amazon allow a "color" to point to a product from a completely different seller? Why does Amazon allow product aliases at all?
mfer 5y ago
It's kind of sad if the only way to stop having your item listing in Amazon from being hijacked is to trademark.
mrandish 5y ago
It's a shame that a small-time reseller like Cliff has to go to the trouble and expense to register a trademark to protect his listing (which I doubt Cliff will bother with). Until about 5-6 years ago the changes Amazon made almost universally made their service better and more pro-user convenience/efficiency. Since then it's really become a nightmare. I realize they are being abused by scammers who are scheming every way to subvert the system but as a technologist familiar with web tech and distribution, it's clear there are some anti-consumer experience issues which Amazon could fix but is choosing not to. For example, allowing vendors to list alternate "versions" which aren't really the same product at all. It makes it harder to tell what the star rating averages are for the version I actually want (and I have to sort reviews by version which is only accessible on a subpage. Frankly, I'd rather they just go back to one listing per product. Yes it's less useful for a hundred different sized machine screws but it seems like a major source of these issues. Then there's the nightmare of letting different sellers sell on the "same" product listing. Crap clone products flit in and out contaminating the integrity of reviews because a shoddy version slips in but only from one seller out of six or seven. As someone who deals with them everyday, do you think they are NOT doing some of the things they could to stop these issues due to strong incentives (Amazon makes more $$$ allowing users to be frustrated), or do you think they are sincerely doing what they can (within reasonable costs) to solve these chronic issues? They used to understand that accuracy and transparency ultimately yield more sales (even if lower for an individual product). I'd like to believe Amazon didn't change their ethos from the early days, but...
- paulpauper 5y ago
  Making the step from a hobby to a business means having to make the necessary investments, some of which may be costly and a pain in the ass, to protect one's intellectual property.
  - saxonww 5y ago
    I think it's ironic that you're saying he has to pay to run his business safely, when Amazon's set things up this way specifically because they don't want to pay to run their business safely. It's a little outrageous that a 3rd party can come take over your storefront without any avenue to challenge.
jbluepolarbear 5y ago
That shouldn’t be required. Amazon should verify the seller. Scam sellers sell knockoff trademarked items everyday on Amazon. Trademark won’t fix anything.
throwawaycities 5y ago
I can save him the money…it would be highly unlikely the USPTO would grant a TM for “ACME Klein Bottle”. In either case, or even in the case the was a seller legitimately infringing on a valid trademark, Amazon should not be reassigning reviews from one sellers product to another seller under these types of matters. How in the hell would that be beneficial to Amazon shoppers?
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  Indeed, "Klein bottle" is not descriptive of the origin, it's descriptive of the type of goods. Trademarks indicate origin and must do so distinctively to be registered. This post is my own view, not legal advice, and unrelated to my employment.
  - throwawaycities 5y ago
    And “ACME” is very likely already registered in any desired class for the particular good. It also creates bigger questions about Amazon’s brand/trademark practices vis-a-vis forum selection where registration fees and criteria are minimal and rights are liberal. Assuming it was successfully filed, actually returning the marketplace/reviews to OP would actually be more troubling…in other words Amazon would be willing to take the marketplace/reviews from a legitimate Trademark holder with an earlier filing date and give it to a legitimate Trademark holder with a later in time filing date from another jurisdiction. Disclosure: I’m a lawyer and have actually represented a client that registered trademark A, sole the product on Amazon, then Amazon began selling a competing product with a similar (not identical spelling but pronounced the same) name they successfully trademarked B, ironically the USPTO rejected our clients trademark for C on the basis it was “to similar to B” whereas the USPTO never found B was similar to A. The difference between A and C being addition of a logo to the word mark.
    - wgjordan 5y ago
      > Amazon began selling a competing product with a similar (not identical spelling but pronounced the same) name they successfully trademarked B Trademarks are published for opposition for this reason, right? Client could have filed an opposition against the confusingly similar mark during the opposition period and it never would have ended up in that situation with trademark C. Monitoring trademarks posted to the Official Gazette is an extra burden but important if your brand is valuable.
pbhjpbhj 5y ago
Do Amazon care about jurisdiction, UK registration is ~£200, perhaps any registered trademark will get you recognised by Amazon [in all jurisdictions]? If someone is squatting one's trademark you can still sue them with an unregistered mark, and perhaps crucially if they're using Amazon then Amazon should be up for contributory infringement. This is not legal advice and represents my personal views only.
- technothrasher 5y ago
  I was thinking similarly, what about state trademarks? I've got a Massachusetts trademark because it was quick and easy, and cost only $50. My lawyer advised me that, while not as iron clad as a federal trademark, it would tend to discourage anybody else from filing federally on the mark because they'd do a search and mine would turn up and they'd rather pick a different mark than be limited in one state. I don't sell product on Amazon though, so I don't know if it would work in that instance.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> USPTO is a database of trademarks No the United States Patent and Trademark Office is not a database of trademarks. It has one, though.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
I have felt for awhile that fees for Trademarks, and Patents should be tied to 1040 income level. A wealthy corporation (person) should pay more than the poor, or little enterprise. I looked into a patent a few years ago, and couldn't justify even the fee at the time. When I had disposable income I was ready to patent, but I was too late. A corporation with over 60 patents beat me to it.
CliffStoll 5y ago
Thanks, Blair. I've spent an afternoon pawing through the USPTO trademark & their TESS system. To self-register a trademark with already-listed goods (eg, a T-Shirt or a clock) costs about USD$350. The cost bumps up for every class of goods your trademark covers (say, your trademark covers T-Shirts and Clocks). And oddball, unlisted items (Klein bottles) cost noticeably more.

hhh 5y ago

While this would probably work, it seems insane to me that this would be the only thing to protect his listing from a completely different category of product being merged with another.

Accujack 5y ago
You're not wrong. Because Amazon's system is insane unless you realize it's designed only for the benefit of the corporation, not for any kind of fairness or quality.
- krferriter 5y ago
  The success of Amazon retail is in part because of the ~feature~ of seamless, rampant IP infringement and zero legal or financial liability on the part of Amazon for making money off it.
  - greyhair 5y ago
    Which has gotten worse over time, and one of the several reasons why my Prime membership will not renew this year.
- cbsmith 5y ago
  What's unfortunate is that ideally fairness & quality should be in the interests of the marketplace.
- cwkoss 5y ago
  Has there been a study on the volume of counterfeit goods flowing through amazon's marketplace? Seems likely they are now the #1 seller of counterfeit goods globally, by a decent margin.
  - nr2x 5y ago
    I’ll bet a six pack of decent beer the % of all sales that are counterfeit goods is double digits.
spacemark 5y ago
...or the fact that the only way to get this information is a HN comment from an independent Amazon consultant.
freeopinion 5y ago
Let's say that Acme is a low-down, dirty-rotten, rip-off con who has been usurping somebody else's trademark to make a quick buck with counterfeit merchandise. Why would Amazon merge the reviews of that product with the reviews of the authentic, high-quality, reputable Chinese vendor's actual product? Why does Amazon allow a "color" to point to a product from a completely different seller? Why does Amazon allow product aliases at all?

mfer 5y ago

It's kind of sad if the only way to stop having your item listing in Amazon from being hijacked is to trademark.

mrandish 5y ago

It's a shame that a small-time reseller like Cliff has to go to the trouble and expense to register a trademark to protect his listing (which I doubt Cliff will bother with). Until about 5-6 years ago the changes Amazon made almost universally made their service better and more pro-user convenience/efficiency. Since then it's really become a nightmare. I realize they are being abused by scammers who are scheming every way to subvert the system but as a technologist familiar with web tech and distribution, it's clear there are some anti-consumer experience issues which Amazon could fix but is choosing not to. For example, allowing vendors to list alternate "versions" which aren't really the same product at all. It makes it harder to tell what the star rating averages are for the version I actually want (and I have to sort reviews by version which is only accessible on a subpage. Frankly, I'd rather they just go back to one listing per product. Yes it's less useful for a hundred different sized machine screws but it seems like a major source of these issues. Then there's the nightmare of letting different sellers sell on the "same" product listing. Crap clone products flit in and out contaminating the integrity of reviews because a shoddy version slips in but only from one seller out of six or seven. As someone who deals with them everyday, do you think they are NOT doing some of the things they could to stop these issues due to strong incentives (Amazon makes more $$$ allowing users to be frustrated), or do you think they are sincerely doing what they can (within reasonable costs) to solve these chronic issues? They used to understand that accuracy and transparency ultimately yield more sales (even if lower for an individual product). I'd like to believe Amazon didn't change their ethos from the early days, but...

paulpauper 5y ago
Making the step from a hobby to a business means having to make the necessary investments, some of which may be costly and a pain in the ass, to protect one's intellectual property.
- saxonww 5y ago
  I think it's ironic that you're saying he has to pay to run his business safely, when Amazon's set things up this way specifically because they don't want to pay to run their business safely. It's a little outrageous that a 3rd party can come take over your storefront without any avenue to challenge.

jbluepolarbear 5y ago

That shouldn’t be required. Amazon should verify the seller. Scam sellers sell knockoff trademarked items everyday on Amazon. Trademark won’t fix anything.

throwawaycities 5y ago

I can save him the money…it would be highly unlikely the USPTO would grant a TM for “ACME Klein Bottle”. In either case, or even in the case the was a seller legitimately infringing on a valid trademark, Amazon should not be reassigning reviews from one sellers product to another seller under these types of matters. How in the hell would that be beneficial to Amazon shoppers?

pbhjpbhj 5y ago
Indeed, "Klein bottle" is not descriptive of the origin, it's descriptive of the type of goods. Trademarks indicate origin and must do so distinctively to be registered. This post is my own view, not legal advice, and unrelated to my employment.
- throwawaycities 5y ago
  And “ACME” is very likely already registered in any desired class for the particular good. It also creates bigger questions about Amazon’s brand/trademark practices vis-a-vis forum selection where registration fees and criteria are minimal and rights are liberal. Assuming it was successfully filed, actually returning the marketplace/reviews to OP would actually be more troubling…in other words Amazon would be willing to take the marketplace/reviews from a legitimate Trademark holder with an earlier filing date and give it to a legitimate Trademark holder with a later in time filing date from another jurisdiction. Disclosure: I’m a lawyer and have actually represented a client that registered trademark A, sole the product on Amazon, then Amazon began selling a competing product with a similar (not identical spelling but pronounced the same) name they successfully trademarked B, ironically the USPTO rejected our clients trademark for C on the basis it was “to similar to B” whereas the USPTO never found B was similar to A. The difference between A and C being addition of a logo to the word mark.
  - wgjordan 5y ago
    > Amazon began selling a competing product with a similar (not identical spelling but pronounced the same) name they successfully trademarked B Trademarks are published for opposition for this reason, right? Client could have filed an opposition against the confusingly similar mark during the opposition period and it never would have ended up in that situation with trademark C. Monitoring trademarks posted to the Official Gazette is an extra burden but important if your brand is valuable.

pbhjpbhj 5y ago

Do Amazon care about jurisdiction, UK registration is ~£200, perhaps any registered trademark will get you recognised by Amazon [in all jurisdictions]? If someone is squatting one's trademark you can still sue them with an unregistered mark, and perhaps crucially if they're using Amazon then Amazon should be up for contributory infringement. This is not legal advice and represents my personal views only.

technothrasher 5y ago
I was thinking similarly, what about state trademarks? I've got a Massachusetts trademark because it was quick and easy, and cost only $50. My lawyer advised me that, while not as iron clad as a federal trademark, it would tend to discourage anybody else from filing federally on the mark because they'd do a search and mine would turn up and they'd rather pick a different mark than be limited in one state. I don't sell product on Amazon though, so I don't know if it would work in that instance.

dragonwriter 5y ago

> USPTO is a database of trademarks No the United States Patent and Trademark Office is not a database of trademarks. It has one, though.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

I have felt for awhile that fees for Trademarks, and Patents should be tied to 1040 income level. A wealthy corporation (person) should pay more than the poor, or little enterprise. I looked into a patent a few years ago, and couldn't justify even the fee at the time. When I had disposable income I was ready to patent, but I was too late. A corporation with over 60 patents beat me to it.

CliffStoll 5y ago

Thanks, Blair. I've spent an afternoon pawing through the USPTO trademark & their TESS system. To self-register a trademark with already-listed goods (eg, a T-Shirt or a clock) costs about USD$350. The cost bumps up for every class of goods your trademark covers (say, your trademark covers T-Shirts and Clocks). And oddball, unlisted items (Klein bottles) cost noticeably more.