9 ms·

OpenStreetMap looks to relocate to EU due to Brexit limitations

340 points by kudu 5y ago

bloak 5y ago
This is partly about "mutual recognition of database rights": "since Brexit, any database made on or after 1 January 2021 in the UK will not be protected in the EU, and vice versa". It's not something most people need to worry about, but I expect OpenStreetMap won't be the only company affected by that.
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  It would have been useful for the article to summarise the situation on this between the EU and the US and between the UK and the EU, as this looks like a global issue. I have a tendency for cynicism so I have noticed that the article mentions their failure to obtain charity status, which suggests that they may be looking at lowering their tax bill...
  - johannes1234321 5y ago
    Having charity status foremost eases collecting donations. With lots of bureaucratic overhead as it restricts where money can be spent.
- 123pie123 5y ago
  >"since Brexit, any database made on or after 1 January 2021 in the UK will not be protected in the EU, and vice versa" I'm not sure I follow, surely the OSM database existed before 1/1/21 thus they have no issues or does it apply to db updates?
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    The database as it existed before 1/1/21 would be protected. But I suspect any contributions made after that date won’t be.
    - IshKebab 5y ago
      Why do they want protection in the first place? Isn't it meant to be open?
      - jdavis703 5y ago
        Open is not the same as public domain.
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  So once OSM moves to Europe I can clone OSM database without worries just by residing in the UK? Surely this is a problem already with the USA and the rest of the world? If this protection is not enforced everywhere in the world, it's quite useless. I just need to setup a foreign company to bypass it. This is probably something that is "solved" with a contract: Eg. "By downloading this database you agree to abide to these rules: don't clone it or we'll sue you for X millions"
  - habi 5y ago
    > So once OSM moves to Europe I can clone OSM database without worries just by residing in the UK? You can already download https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ completely for free. There are certain obligations for usage of the data though, you have to abide to the OpenStreetMap License: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/en https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/en
skywal_l 5y ago
It's not really clear to me what the problem is. Doesn't the Open Database License applies everywhere, brexit or not? I never thought that where an "open source" project is physically located as any impact on the license it uses.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  I think if someone abroad is abusing your license, the nuclear option is to sue them in their own country. If that country deems that there's nothing wrong in what is being done, then at the very least you are on a much weaker standing. Whereas if, from first principles, the rights of the license holder are recognised, then it's much easier to have your rights enforced.
- bildung 5y ago
  It's in the article: One “important reason”, Rischard said, was the failure of the UK and EU to agree on mutual recognition of database rights. While both have an agreement to recognise copyright protections, that only covers work which is creative in nature.
- matthewmorgan 5y ago
  I don't understand the problem either. If they're worried someone in the EU is going to clone their database, moving there just means someone in the UK can now do it. And Americans have apparently been free to do it from the start.
  - danieldk 5y ago
    The EU is a much larger market than the UK. If you are an international company that cloned their database, not offering your product in the UK because you could be sued is a loss. However, not being able to offer your product in the EU is a much bigger loss. So, such companies are much more likely to comply with the license if OpenStreetMap is protected by EU laws than by UK laws.
    - matthewmorgan 5y ago
mrtksn 5y ago
Oh this is about the "Database Rights". In essence, EU, UK and the USA has different opinion on the ownership status and rights of databases. EU: Databases are similar to other copyrightable works, thus you can't simply copy someones database. UK: Like EU but with different flavour. USA: There's no such things as database rights. Apparently, although the positions of UK and EU are similar, since UK is no longer in the EU and there's no mutual agreement on how to make things work those who want to have their databases protected by the law need to move to the jurisdiction that fits their needs and in the case of OpenStreetMap that would be EU. fun fact: The last time the database rights was a hot topic, it was about Google copying the database of a small company that specialises in building a database of net worth of celebrities. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24105465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24105465
- kmlx 5y ago
  another fun fact: only the UK, EU and Russia have "database rights". No other country has anything similar. And I'm guessing a good reason why no one else has this has to do with free use and research. Basically, in the EU, UK and Russia I can't even reconstruct your database piece by piece.
  - gubby 5y ago
    > Basically, in the EU, UK and Russia I can't even reconstruct your database piece by piece. You are entitled to create a similar database based on your own efforts or research. So, you could walk the streets of London with an iPad to make your own KmlxStreetMap. You just can't directly copy or transfer rows from someone else's. This seems like a good page: https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/database-rights-the-basics https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/database-rights...
    - Silhouette 5y ago
      Yes, database rights in the EU/UK sense are an oddity in IP law. They look a lot more powerful at first glance than they have proved to be when tested in court, and they only last 15 years. They might be useful for something like stopping someone who is in a jurisdiction where they apply from scraping your site to download a database you spent significant money collecting. But that doesn't help you if whoever is scraping your site is based somewhere else, which includes most of the world. I wonder whether database rights would actually hold up for something like OpenStreetMap anyway. Is OSM generating new data in a creative process or investing significant effort in collecting data that existing sources? If it's the former then copyright probably does apply but database rights probably don't according to CJEU case law. If it's the latter then it's probably the other way around. Whichever is the case, relocating your whole legal entity to the EU because of an issue like this might be a rather extreme reaction, and from the report it appears the decision here was made on the basis of many small factors and not just the issue of database rights.
Proven 5y ago
It's due to EU protectionism and bureaucracy, not Brexit. The only apparent Brexit related problem is getting the non-profit status.
CodeGlitch 5y ago
> The move may still not happen if the foundation can’t find a suitable country to relocate to. Ireland is out, because of a requirement for directors to be residents; France too, because of the difficulty in guaranteeing English-language services. So moving to the EU solves some problems but adds more?
- docdeek 5y ago
  The idea that the Foundation wouldn’t be able to find English language services in France is a bit of a stretch. I’ve been working in tech here in France for a while now and whether in startups, tech companies, or independently, I’ve never had any trouble conducting business almost entirely in English if I (as the customer) preferred to.
  - jozvolskyef 5y ago
    English isn't an official language in France. That probably isn't an issue for large companies, but it is a non-starter for small companies.
    - seszett 5y ago
      English is an official language in the EU only in Ireland and Malta though, so if Ireland is out and English is a requirement, it shouldn't be difficult to decide which country to move to.
      - jeltz 5y ago
        As someone who has done business on Malta I would not recommend it. Even opening a bank account is a pain on that island. I wouls not want to operate a nob-profit there.
        klausjensen 5y ago
        Completely agree. I have run a company in Malta since 2014 and the banking difficulties are non-stop. I would never open a new company there today. Expect bank accounts in other countries (like Revolut, Transferwise etc) to be closed suddenly because "Malta".
streamofdigits 5y ago
> The increased importance of the EU in matters of tech regulation also played a role check the node density of OSM [0]. notice a pattern? on a forward looking basis pre-empting any regulatory risk would seem quite a weighty factor. being located in the jurisdiction that reflects the majority of their user base is not a silver bullet but probably shields them from diverging UK/EU rules [0] https://tyrasd.github.io/osm-node-density/#2/43.8/26.4/latest,places https://tyrasd.github.io/osm-node-density/#2/43.8/26.4/lates...
VBprogrammer 5y ago
I can't imagine this is much more than a set of paper work exercises. It would have no meaningful effect on anyone who uses or works for OpenStreetMap, other than perhaps if someone had a dastardly plan to copy their database and sell it for their own purposes.
archsurface 5y ago
What a troll spin. Next, the English have English accents due to Brexit.
denton-scratch 5y ago
This seems a poor reason for moving your headquarters. A. In most jurisdictions, you can't copyright facts (nor should you be able to, IMO). B. I can't see why OpenStreetmap has to rely on copyright. C. OSM data is provided by the public. It shouldn't be any kind of "property".
adamjb 5y ago
Original mailing list post https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2021-June/007860.html https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2021-Jun...
Someone 5y ago
I don’t understand the concern about database rights. OpenStreetMap is open (you can download it from https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ https://planet.openstreetmap.org/), so why would they be concerned about copyrights?
- jaywalk 5y ago
  I'd assume the main reason is because they require you to credit them when you're using their data: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
- Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
  Most open licences work by manipulating copyright. If you entirely relinquish the rights (a la CC0 or other "public domain" declaration), you can't enforce attribution or share-alike, which OSM wants to do.
  - sigg3 5y ago
    It doesn't manipulate copyright, it presupposes it. The 'left' part of copyleft is about distribution or dissemination, and other rights bestowed. It doesn't challenge copyright at all. You cannot grant rights for works without ownership, so PD has left the chat, so to speak.

340 points by kudu 5y ago

This is partly about "mutual recognition of database rights": "since Brexit, any database made on or after 1 January 2021 in the UK will not be protected in the EU, and vice versa". It's not something most people need to worry about, but I expect OpenStreetMap won't be the only company affected by that.

mytailorisrich 5y ago
It would have been useful for the article to summarise the situation on this between the EU and the US and between the UK and the EU, as this looks like a global issue. I have a tendency for cynicism so I have noticed that the article mentions their failure to obtain charity status, which suggests that they may be looking at lowering their tax bill...
- johannes1234321 5y ago
  Having charity status foremost eases collecting donations. With lots of bureaucratic overhead as it restricts where money can be spent.
123pie123 5y ago
>"since Brexit, any database made on or after 1 January 2021 in the UK will not be protected in the EU, and vice versa" I'm not sure I follow, surely the OSM database existed before 1/1/21 thus they have no issues or does it apply to db updates?
- avianlyric 5y ago
  The database as it existed before 1/1/21 would be protected. But I suspect any contributions made after that date won’t be.
  - IshKebab 5y ago
    Why do they want protection in the first place? Isn't it meant to be open?
    - jdavis703 5y ago
      Open is not the same as public domain.
jokethrowaway 5y ago
So once OSM moves to Europe I can clone OSM database without worries just by residing in the UK? Surely this is a problem already with the USA and the rest of the world? If this protection is not enforced everywhere in the world, it's quite useless. I just need to setup a foreign company to bypass it. This is probably something that is "solved" with a contract: Eg. "By downloading this database you agree to abide to these rules: don't clone it or we'll sue you for X millions"
- habi 5y ago
  > So once OSM moves to Europe I can clone OSM database without worries just by residing in the UK? You can already download https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ completely for free. There are certain obligations for usage of the data though, you have to abide to the OpenStreetMap License: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/en https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright/en

skywal_l 5y ago

It's not really clear to me what the problem is. Doesn't the Open Database License applies everywhere, brexit or not? I never thought that where an "open source" project is physically located as any impact on the license it uses.

rich_sasha 5y ago
I think if someone abroad is abusing your license, the nuclear option is to sue them in their own country. If that country deems that there's nothing wrong in what is being done, then at the very least you are on a much weaker standing. Whereas if, from first principles, the rights of the license holder are recognised, then it's much easier to have your rights enforced.
bildung 5y ago
It's in the article: One “important reason”, Rischard said, was the failure of the UK and EU to agree on mutual recognition of database rights. While both have an agreement to recognise copyright protections, that only covers work which is creative in nature.
matthewmorgan 5y ago
I don't understand the problem either. If they're worried someone in the EU is going to clone their database, moving there just means someone in the UK can now do it. And Americans have apparently been free to do it from the start.
- danieldk 5y ago
  The EU is a much larger market than the UK. If you are an international company that cloned their database, not offering your product in the UK because you could be sued is a loss. However, not being able to offer your product in the EU is a much bigger loss. So, such companies are much more likely to comply with the license if OpenStreetMap is protected by EU laws than by UK laws.
  - matthewmorgan 5y ago

mrtksn 5y ago

Oh this is about the "Database Rights". In essence, EU, UK and the USA has different opinion on the ownership status and rights of databases. EU: Databases are similar to other copyrightable works, thus you can't simply copy someones database. UK: Like EU but with different flavour. USA: There's no such things as database rights. Apparently, although the positions of UK and EU are similar, since UK is no longer in the EU and there's no mutual agreement on how to make things work those who want to have their databases protected by the law need to move to the jurisdiction that fits their needs and in the case of OpenStreetMap that would be EU. fun fact: The last time the database rights was a hot topic, it was about Google copying the database of a small company that specialises in building a database of net worth of celebrities. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24105465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24105465

kmlx 5y ago
another fun fact: only the UK, EU and Russia have "database rights". No other country has anything similar. And I'm guessing a good reason why no one else has this has to do with free use and research. Basically, in the EU, UK and Russia I can't even reconstruct your database piece by piece.
- gubby 5y ago
  > Basically, in the EU, UK and Russia I can't even reconstruct your database piece by piece. You are entitled to create a similar database based on your own efforts or research. So, you could walk the streets of London with an iPad to make your own KmlxStreetMap. You just can't directly copy or transfer rows from someone else's. This seems like a good page: https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/database-rights-the-basics https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/guides/database-rights...
  - Silhouette 5y ago
    Yes, database rights in the EU/UK sense are an oddity in IP law. They look a lot more powerful at first glance than they have proved to be when tested in court, and they only last 15 years. They might be useful for something like stopping someone who is in a jurisdiction where they apply from scraping your site to download a database you spent significant money collecting. But that doesn't help you if whoever is scraping your site is based somewhere else, which includes most of the world. I wonder whether database rights would actually hold up for something like OpenStreetMap anyway. Is OSM generating new data in a creative process or investing significant effort in collecting data that existing sources? If it's the former then copyright probably does apply but database rights probably don't according to CJEU case law. If it's the latter then it's probably the other way around. Whichever is the case, relocating your whole legal entity to the EU because of an issue like this might be a rather extreme reaction, and from the report it appears the decision here was made on the basis of many small factors and not just the issue of database rights.

Proven 5y ago

It's due to EU protectionism and bureaucracy, not Brexit. The only apparent Brexit related problem is getting the non-profit status.

CodeGlitch 5y ago

> The move may still not happen if the foundation can’t find a suitable country to relocate to. Ireland is out, because of a requirement for directors to be residents; France too, because of the difficulty in guaranteeing English-language services. So moving to the EU solves some problems but adds more?

docdeek 5y ago
The idea that the Foundation wouldn’t be able to find English language services in France is a bit of a stretch. I’ve been working in tech here in France for a while now and whether in startups, tech companies, or independently, I’ve never had any trouble conducting business almost entirely in English if I (as the customer) preferred to.
- jozvolskyef 5y ago
  English isn't an official language in France. That probably isn't an issue for large companies, but it is a non-starter for small companies.
  - seszett 5y ago
    English is an official language in the EU only in Ireland and Malta though, so if Ireland is out and English is a requirement, it shouldn't be difficult to decide which country to move to.
    - jeltz 5y ago
      As someone who has done business on Malta I would not recommend it. Even opening a bank account is a pain on that island. I wouls not want to operate a nob-profit there.
      - klausjensen 5y ago
        Completely agree. I have run a company in Malta since 2014 and the banking difficulties are non-stop. I would never open a new company there today. Expect bank accounts in other countries (like Revolut, Transferwise etc) to be closed suddenly because "Malta".

streamofdigits 5y ago

> The increased importance of the EU in matters of tech regulation also played a role check the node density of OSM [0]. notice a pattern? on a forward looking basis pre-empting any regulatory risk would seem quite a weighty factor. being located in the jurisdiction that reflects the majority of their user base is not a silver bullet but probably shields them from diverging UK/EU rules [0] https://tyrasd.github.io/osm-node-density/#2/43.8/26.4/latest,places https://tyrasd.github.io/osm-node-density/#2/43.8/26.4/lates...

VBprogrammer 5y ago

I can't imagine this is much more than a set of paper work exercises. It would have no meaningful effect on anyone who uses or works for OpenStreetMap, other than perhaps if someone had a dastardly plan to copy their database and sell it for their own purposes.

archsurface 5y ago

What a troll spin. Next, the English have English accents due to Brexit.

denton-scratch 5y ago

This seems a poor reason for moving your headquarters. A. In most jurisdictions, you can't copyright facts (nor should you be able to, IMO). B. I can't see why OpenStreetmap has to rely on copyright. C. OSM data is provided by the public. It shouldn't be any kind of "property".

adamjb 5y ago

Original mailing list post https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2021-June/007860.html https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/osmf-talk/2021-Jun...

Someone 5y ago

I don’t understand the concern about database rights. OpenStreetMap is open (you can download it from https://planet.openstreetmap.org/ https://planet.openstreetmap.org/), so why would they be concerned about copyrights?

jaywalk 5y ago
I'd assume the main reason is because they require you to credit them when you're using their data: https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright https://www.openstreetmap.org/copyright
Doctor_Fegg 5y ago
Most open licences work by manipulating copyright. If you entirely relinquish the rights (a la CC0 or other "public domain" declaration), you can't enforce attribution or share-alike, which OSM wants to do.
- sigg3 5y ago
  It doesn't manipulate copyright, it presupposes it. The 'left' part of copyleft is about distribution or dissemination, and other rights bestowed. It doesn't challenge copyright at all. You cannot grant rights for works without ownership, so PD has left the chat, so to speak.