8 ms·

Funazushi: The fermented predecessor of modern sushi

95 points by mighty-fine 5y ago

JetAlone 5y ago
Very interesting, it's like a fish cheese! Looks good, I wanna try it some time.
- kurthr 5y ago
  You are welcome to have ALL of mine. I've had Swedish fermented herring, and not only did it smell awful, but I became disgusted with the Ammonia and H2S smell in my own mouth. The friend who had conned me into trying it then dumped it in the trash and his Swedish wife got upset because of the stench and made him take the entire bag of trash out at night when it was unpleasantly cold, wet, and windy. Turns out she's not a fan of Surströmming. I tried washing my teeth/tongue out with his expensive vodka and it certainly took enough shots to get drunk. To be clear, I have no problem with any Blue cheese or even Epoisses. I don't love "stinky" tofu, but it doesn't bother me and I am somewhat charmed by durian. Fermented fish is in another league, and the small bones get stuck in your teeth.
  - jrochkind1 5y ago
    Fish sauce is another kind of fermented fish. While it is definitely pungent and is disliked or an acquired taste for some, it isn't nearly as intense as what you describe and is loved by many. Southeast-asian-style fish sauce does not have an ammonia smell. Perhaps not all fermented fish is the same. I doubt the Japanese one discussed here is similar to that Swedish dish, or has an ammonia smell. > Fish sauce is a liquid condiment made from fish or krill that have been coated in salt and fermented for up to two years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce
    - kurthr 5y ago
      As soy sauce which is fermented tofu (like stinky tofu), and fish sauce is to fermented fish, they are much more accusable than their source materials. Also, I'll note that a fish is often added to many traditional soy sauces in south Asia. As author of the parent comment, I like both of those sauces and cook with them... but fermented whole fish (herring) is another kettle of fish entirely!
  - JetAlone 5y ago
    I've had pickled herring before, I find it very tasty. I also like Natto. I have a strong predilection towards food that tastes spicy, bitter, salty and/or umami. Sweet stuff is fine. I like Vodka, so cheers to that.
    - xvedejas 5y ago
      Natto is none of spicy, bitter, salty, or umami. It also doesn't have the pleasant sharpness of pickled herring or vodka. It is glue, in both texture and taste, but also in function. Based on how firmly it glued my mouth shut, I'm certain it could find more industrial uses. Truly more bizarre than you make it.
    - kurthr 5y ago
      As author of parent: I don't mind Natto. It's a strong almost musty taste to me and the texture is hard to get used to. As a breakfast condiment, I'd much prefer Marmite/Vegemite. Another fermented fish thing I will not eat again, Fish Candy from Vietnam. Many of the same smells and tastes, but combined with a slightly caramelized sugar coating on a stick.
  - numpad0 5y ago
    I guess Surströmmings are not labeled “Miscellaneous hazardous material” for nothing! 1: https://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/nl/articles/1810/02/l_f181002_surstromming_3.jpg https://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/nl/articles/1810/02/l_f1810...
  - pinko 5y ago
    I believe Icelandic fermented fish was one of the few foods Anthony Bourdain found revolting. Based on my own experience with Icelandic and Japanese approaches to flavor, I would bet Funazushi tastes better, though.
    - Clewza313 5y ago
      That would be hákarl, fermented shark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl
  - T-A 5y ago
    https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338198088_Surstromming_The_Worst_Odor_in_the_World https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338198088_Surstromm...
- totetsu 5y ago
  A little easier to find would be some other dried fish, like Hoshi-karei 干しカレイ, dried flat fish. It definitely has a soft goat cheese feel to it.
engineerdeck 5y ago
I'm always reminded of the Karl Pilkington video whenever this is bought up. It doesn't seem very nice.
lsh123 5y ago
I am not sure this is correct, people ate raw fish and meat before any of the processing happened. So I would guess that sashimi was known way earlier than fermented fish.
- dllthomas 5y ago
  Sashimi isn't sushi. Sushi literally means "sour rice". In the version of it I know (probably from a Good Eats episode), fish was "fermented packed in rice" (probably a gloss of this process) leading to... sour rice and fish. The modern practice of getting sour rice by mixing in some rice vinegar is an evolution of a much faster approximation of that dish.
  - shoto_io 5y ago
    Interesting. So Sauerkraut and Sushi have similar roots. Sauerkraut was also fermented in the old days. Now, vinegar is used, which btw kills any useful fermentation bacteria.
    - Stratoscope 5y ago
      Don't know where you live, but here in the Bay Area there are several brands of naturally fermented sauerkraut that you can find in any decent grocery. Just looking in the fridge I see some Wise Goat and some Farmhouse. Very tasty and all naturally fermented!
    - samatman 5y ago
      I don't believe that's true. Del Monte sauerkraut comes in a can (which is why I picked it as an example) and contains only cabbage, water, and salt: https://www.delmonte.com/products/vegetables/sauerkraut/sauerkraut https://www.delmonte.com/products/vegetables/sauerkraut/saue... It's pasteurized of course, which kills off the beneficial bacteria, but it's still fermented to make it. There are other pickled vegetables made with vinegar, including cucumbers, but fermentation is still the more common method.
    - majewsky 5y ago
euske 5y ago
I think that almost every culture has this kind of food that is supposed to be super good to those who acquired taste but looks totally gross to outsiders. Japan has this half-rotten sushi and fermented soybeans, and then there's maggot cheese and notorious fermented herrings, etc.
- dllthomas 5y ago
  In my experience the Poles seem to think of their pickled herring this way, but it's just genuinely tasty all of the three ways I've had it.
  - bradleyjg 5y ago
    I don’t know about the Polish version but I assume it’s similar to the kind you get with onions and a sour cream based sauce in appetizing stores in NYC. If so, I wouldn’t say it’s an acquired taste. It’s a bit fishy but even as a child I liked it.
    - dllthomas 5y ago
      > I assume it’s similar to the kind you get with onions and a sour cream based sauce in appetizing stores in NYC. Quite possibly. It's not the same as various jarred herring in supermarkets (which is usually... okay.); my mother in law makes hers with oil, onions, cloves, and bay leaf and it's very much the same as what I had in Warsaw. There is another approach (which I haven't go the recipe for) that is sour and a little sweet and has sour cream and green onions (and sometimes raisins, in the northwest). Those are good and a little exciting because I have them less often, but I like the oil and onions and cloves kind better. > If so, I wouldn’t say it’s an acquired taste. It’s a bit fishy but even as a child I liked it. Yeah, I agree, which is why I'm a little amused at how much surprise and enjoyment "lubie śledzie" seems to prompt.
  - Fnoord 5y ago
    When we Dutch buy Hollanse Nieuwe (herring of this year) we get asked if we want 'ui en zuur erbij?' ('onion and sour with it?'). The sour are pickles. I wouldn't want my herring without either. Maybe lutefisk counts, but I don't think so. Fermentation has to be done correct, else it is dangerous. That's where the gross feeling stems from; it has/had a purpose.
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sizt 5y ago
The BBC have no clue about anything Japanese.
tayo42 5y ago
sushi in kyoto was similar to this. some kind of fermented suhsi. it was ok, prefer the new tokyo style kind lol
- Clewza313 5y ago
  If the sushi was served in pressed, compact slices, you likely had oshizushi ("pressed sushi"), which is is fairly common in the Kansai area around Kyoto. The fish used is typically lightly pickled, not full-on fermented, but it's definitely quite different from "regular" Edomae sushi.

95 points by mighty-fine 5y ago

JetAlone 5y ago

Very interesting, it's like a fish cheese! Looks good, I wanna try it some time.

kurthr 5y ago
You are welcome to have ALL of mine. I've had Swedish fermented herring, and not only did it smell awful, but I became disgusted with the Ammonia and H2S smell in my own mouth. The friend who had conned me into trying it then dumped it in the trash and his Swedish wife got upset because of the stench and made him take the entire bag of trash out at night when it was unpleasantly cold, wet, and windy. Turns out she's not a fan of Surströmming. I tried washing my teeth/tongue out with his expensive vodka and it certainly took enough shots to get drunk. To be clear, I have no problem with any Blue cheese or even Epoisses. I don't love "stinky" tofu, but it doesn't bother me and I am somewhat charmed by durian. Fermented fish is in another league, and the small bones get stuck in your teeth.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  Fish sauce is another kind of fermented fish. While it is definitely pungent and is disliked or an acquired taste for some, it isn't nearly as intense as what you describe and is loved by many. Southeast-asian-style fish sauce does not have an ammonia smell. Perhaps not all fermented fish is the same. I doubt the Japanese one discussed here is similar to that Swedish dish, or has an ammonia smell. > Fish sauce is a liquid condiment made from fish or krill that have been coated in salt and fermented for up to two years https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fish_sauce
  - kurthr 5y ago
    As soy sauce which is fermented tofu (like stinky tofu), and fish sauce is to fermented fish, they are much more accusable than their source materials. Also, I'll note that a fish is often added to many traditional soy sauces in south Asia. As author of the parent comment, I like both of those sauces and cook with them... but fermented whole fish (herring) is another kettle of fish entirely!
- JetAlone 5y ago
  I've had pickled herring before, I find it very tasty. I also like Natto. I have a strong predilection towards food that tastes spicy, bitter, salty and/or umami. Sweet stuff is fine. I like Vodka, so cheers to that.
  - xvedejas 5y ago
    Natto is none of spicy, bitter, salty, or umami. It also doesn't have the pleasant sharpness of pickled herring or vodka. It is glue, in both texture and taste, but also in function. Based on how firmly it glued my mouth shut, I'm certain it could find more industrial uses. Truly more bizarre than you make it.
  - kurthr 5y ago
    As author of parent: I don't mind Natto. It's a strong almost musty taste to me and the texture is hard to get used to. As a breakfast condiment, I'd much prefer Marmite/Vegemite. Another fermented fish thing I will not eat again, Fish Candy from Vietnam. Many of the same smells and tastes, but combined with a slightly caramelized sugar coating on a stick.
- numpad0 5y ago
  I guess Surströmmings are not labeled “Miscellaneous hazardous material” for nothing! 1: https://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/nl/articles/1810/02/l_f181002_surstromming_3.jpg https://image.itmedia.co.jp/l/im/nl/articles/1810/02/l_f1810...
- pinko 5y ago
  I believe Icelandic fermented fish was one of the few foods Anthony Bourdain found revolting. Based on my own experience with Icelandic and Japanese approaches to flavor, I would bet Funazushi tastes better, though.
  - Clewza313 5y ago
    That would be hákarl, fermented shark: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A1karl
- T-A 5y ago
  https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338198088_Surstromming_The_Worst_Odor_in_the_World https://www.researchgate.net/publication/338198088_Surstromm...
totetsu 5y ago
A little easier to find would be some other dried fish, like Hoshi-karei 干しカレイ, dried flat fish. It definitely has a soft goat cheese feel to it.

engineerdeck 5y ago

I'm always reminded of the Karl Pilkington video whenever this is bought up. It doesn't seem very nice.

lsh123 5y ago

I am not sure this is correct, people ate raw fish and meat before any of the processing happened. So I would guess that sashimi was known way earlier than fermented fish.

dllthomas 5y ago
Sashimi isn't sushi. Sushi literally means "sour rice". In the version of it I know (probably from a Good Eats episode), fish was "fermented packed in rice" (probably a gloss of this process) leading to... sour rice and fish. The modern practice of getting sour rice by mixing in some rice vinegar is an evolution of a much faster approximation of that dish.
- shoto_io 5y ago
  Interesting. So Sauerkraut and Sushi have similar roots. Sauerkraut was also fermented in the old days. Now, vinegar is used, which btw kills any useful fermentation bacteria.
  - Stratoscope 5y ago
    Don't know where you live, but here in the Bay Area there are several brands of naturally fermented sauerkraut that you can find in any decent grocery. Just looking in the fridge I see some Wise Goat and some Farmhouse. Very tasty and all naturally fermented!
  - samatman 5y ago
    I don't believe that's true. Del Monte sauerkraut comes in a can (which is why I picked it as an example) and contains only cabbage, water, and salt: https://www.delmonte.com/products/vegetables/sauerkraut/sauerkraut https://www.delmonte.com/products/vegetables/sauerkraut/saue... It's pasteurized of course, which kills off the beneficial bacteria, but it's still fermented to make it. There are other pickled vegetables made with vinegar, including cucumbers, but fermentation is still the more common method.
  - majewsky 5y ago

euske 5y ago

I think that almost every culture has this kind of food that is supposed to be super good to those who acquired taste but looks totally gross to outsiders. Japan has this half-rotten sushi and fermented soybeans, and then there's maggot cheese and notorious fermented herrings, etc.

dllthomas 5y ago
In my experience the Poles seem to think of their pickled herring this way, but it's just genuinely tasty all of the three ways I've had it.
- bradleyjg 5y ago
  I don’t know about the Polish version but I assume it’s similar to the kind you get with onions and a sour cream based sauce in appetizing stores in NYC. If so, I wouldn’t say it’s an acquired taste. It’s a bit fishy but even as a child I liked it.
  - dllthomas 5y ago
    > I assume it’s similar to the kind you get with onions and a sour cream based sauce in appetizing stores in NYC. Quite possibly. It's not the same as various jarred herring in supermarkets (which is usually... okay.); my mother in law makes hers with oil, onions, cloves, and bay leaf and it's very much the same as what I had in Warsaw. There is another approach (which I haven't go the recipe for) that is sour and a little sweet and has sour cream and green onions (and sometimes raisins, in the northwest). Those are good and a little exciting because I have them less often, but I like the oil and onions and cloves kind better. > If so, I wouldn’t say it’s an acquired taste. It’s a bit fishy but even as a child I liked it. Yeah, I agree, which is why I'm a little amused at how much surprise and enjoyment "lubie śledzie" seems to prompt.
- Fnoord 5y ago
  When we Dutch buy Hollanse Nieuwe (herring of this year) we get asked if we want 'ui en zuur erbij?' ('onion and sour with it?'). The sour are pickles. I wouldn't want my herring without either. Maybe lutefisk counts, but I don't think so. Fermentation has to be done correct, else it is dangerous. That's where the gross feeling stems from; it has/had a purpose.

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sizt 5y ago

The BBC have no clue about anything Japanese.

tayo42 5y ago

sushi in kyoto was similar to this. some kind of fermented suhsi. it was ok, prefer the new tokyo style kind lol

Clewza313 5y ago
If the sushi was served in pressed, compact slices, you likely had oshizushi ("pressed sushi"), which is is fairly common in the Kansai area around Kyoto. The fish used is typically lightly pickled, not full-on fermented, but it's definitely quite different from "regular" Edomae sushi.