5 ms·

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

by r00fus 5y ago

wonderwonder 5y ago
We cannot force some to isolate and others not too. We have reached a point where the vaccine is proven effective. Virtually anyone in the US that wanted to get a vaccine by now has had ample opportunity to do so. Those who choose not too will either contract the virus or not, that is their call. I am fully vaccinated and would encourage everyone to get vaccinated but I don't see how we have the right to force anyone to take a novel medication if they don't want to or restrict their movements. It is their body and their right to do as they wish. If we force people to take this medication, what is to stop people being forced to take something else that another group may disagree with. The US has moved past isolation, its just not going to happen again, there is no political will for it. I fully support vaccination, I just don't support a police state asking to check our papers.
- Terretta 5y ago
  And yet none of your argument applies to smoking, because it affects those around not just the smoker and imposes extraordinary costs on non-smoker’s insurance bill. Seems clear we can, and do, forbid individuals from physically and financially harming the community by their ‘personal’ choices. It is their body and their right to do as they wish — perhaps only as long as it harms no others who have the right to be unharmed.
pkulak 5y ago
30% of the population is violently (not a hyperbole) opposed to it.
- fy20 5y ago
  Europe isn't doing much better. It has a lower % fully vaccinated (around 30% in each country, I can't find exact numbers for the whole EU). In a lot of countries the vaccines are now available to everyone over 18, and you can book appointments within a few days or just turn up. In Poland they are running a financial lottery to encourage people to be vaccinated. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/poland-dangles-lottery-jackpot-boost-covid-vaccination-drive-2021-05-25/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
  - _Microft 5y ago
    We are still supply-limited in Germany. The number of new first doses are currently down because we need these doses for the second ones instead. 36% fully vaccinated, 54% have received the first dose at least. The percentages are of the total population, i.e. including kids which cannot even receive the vaccine yet, so we aren’t doing that bad, imo. Check https://impfdashboard.de https://impfdashboard.de for up-to-date numbers.
- asdff 5y ago
  Yet we still require vaccinations to enroll in public schools and fly to certain countries, so none of this would be unprecedented at all.
  - psychometry 5y ago
    When it comes to schools, anyone can claim a "religious exemption" to those rules (as if public health is a religious matter...). There's no verification or proof involved in claiming that exemption. It's a major loophole.
- reducesuffering 5y ago
  I wonder why, when many people on this thread aren't even capable of understanding the science pointing out the difference between vaccinated, previous covid infection antibodies, and no protection. There's repeated boxing into vaccinated and unvaccinated like natural antibodies mean nothing, contrary to the available science.
  - adventured 5y ago
    The wild emotionalism that has overflowed during Covid, is unlikely to go back into the container, unfortunately. It's a hellish birth child of the lunacy of the social media era meets rampant pandemic hysteria. Software engineers (engineers in general actually) aren't special at all when it comes to being rational. They just like to think they are because of their field. It's identical to Stephen Hawking thinking he had special insight on politics, because he was gifted at one thing; or a famous actor thinking they have special insight on politics because they're gifted at one thing. Engineers are just as prone to failing to control their emotions properly, bouts of subject irrationalism and failing to strive for objectivity as is the typical person. Your typical software engineer on HN is no more rational than the typical plumber, the plumber is just likely more honest about it and less full of their self. You see it in every thread on HN, yet the rational engineer myth persists, amusingly.
motohagiography 5y ago
What outcome does a domestic vaccine passport achieve? I work in health information privacy, where regulations were written to prevent that specific situation. There's no denying it's a proxy for political positions, so the case for it needs to be clear, especially in a world where people say in public that it is "irresponsible," to entertain critical opinions. What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve? The same problem the Yellow Card [1] solves. Right now, I have a New York State electronic passport and a CDC paper proof of vaccination. The former works in New York City. The latter works across the U.S., at least now. (At least, it worked in San Francisco and Atlanta.) If I travel abroad, I may need to get the latter re-certified since it's trivial to forge and not independently verifiable. Having a single, authoritative document fixes all this and makes socializing and commerce more frictionless. If we don't want to go into another lockdown when the Delta variant hits, we need to be able to isolate the vaccinated from the vulnerable. The former can continue mixing and mingling with reduced (though not zero) risk of causing a flare-up. The latter, I don't know, ideally they'd stay home but we know that won't happen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_Jaune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_Jaune
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - motohagiography 5y ago
    I would bet a huge personal sum that if there were a federal legal guarantee of no vaccine passports, hesitancy would evaporate overnight, and every single SMART health leak and backdoor regulation to enable them is creating an increasingly hard core and radicalized resistance movement. Yellow card is for some international travel and school enrollment. It is not a vaccine passport, so while I appreciate engaging the question, it's not clear that this is the same use case. Nobody asks an adult for their measles vaccination status in a normal domestic interaction like a concert, train, office, etc. I think most people should get vaccinated and we can all move on with our lives, however, I also think a generalized vaccine passport for domestic use is an abomination with inevitable and horrific consequences, and so I am trying to get a sense of what the sincere case for it is. If it's just leveraging the crisis to institute bureaucratic social controls, I'll be the most reasonable man on the barricades. We need a better "why" that is actually true, and not a cynical "noble lie," (like masks/no-masks was), because when you actually get off the internet and talk to people, it's the percieved lies and the attitudes of the people who tell them that are creating the hesitancy. If a covid-unvaccinated person goes into a stadium or bar full of covid-vaccinated people, what is the effect? The only way the shots get more traction is with a clear and honest answer to that, imo.
reedjosh 5y ago
Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature. A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening. When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the country I was born in, but beyond that where will I be able to go? If I just want my own individual rights, where in the world will I be able to go if what is basically the last bastion of freedom and individualism is lost to tyrannical majority rule?
- standardUser 5y ago
  Every American is in a whole myriad of government databases form the federal level on down. Pretending otherwise, or pretending that the next database will be the one to break individualism and lead to autocracy, is just magical thinking.
  - reedjosh 5y ago
    I don't at all disagree, but this will be the first one openly limiting freedoms via the government's monopoly of force. I do believe there are others already doing so too, but none of them are open and acknowledged by the public.
    - t-writescode 5y ago
      That's not true at all, several of our lists already limit constitutionally approved freedoms. The No Fly List and felony registration for gun ownership being 2 examples. edit: before the downvotes start, agreement with those lists does not negate that they are restricting freedoms based on activities that added or removed someone from a list
      - reedjosh 5y ago
        > That's not true at all You got me there. I believe the No Fly list is a tragedy of Kafkaesque bureaucracy that I wish didn't exist. People have found themselves on it with little recourse. I haven't researched the felony registration list enough to speak to it intelligently.
CaptArmchair 5y ago
The WHO has been issuing so-called Yellow Card certificates for decades. There are enough countries which will require vaccination against Polio, Yellow Fever and Meningococcal meningitis in order for you to cross borders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_V... Moreover, one of the first international certificate issued (1944) targetted Smallpox vaccinations and it's proliferation coincided with the booming air travel in the 1960's and 1970's. It is argued that the certificate was substantial towards preventing Smallpox from spreading in an age where endemic regions became only a few hours of flying away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convention_for_Aerial_Navigation_(1933) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convent... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convention_for_Aerial_Navigation_(1944) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convent... The United States signed and ratified the Convention back in 1945, essentially acknowledging that countries are able to require U.S. citizens to have a vaccine certificate. While the Convention dates back 75 years, today's Yellow Card is the de facto standard for certifying that you have gotten shots at a border. COVID-19 poses a challenge as this disease is highly infectious and crippling enough that preventing spread has become a far bigger global priority then other infectious diseases such as Yellow Fever. However, as of yet, a digital, secure, widely adopted solution that goes beyond the WHO's Yellow Card is still in the works. Several airlines and the IATA are working on their own travellers pass, but realistically, a trusted vaccination passport which is globally recognized requires an international treaty between nations governments. The world hasn't arrived at this point yet, and most countries still operate their own systems such as passenger locator forms or national passes issued to their own citizens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i...
willmadden 5y ago
I feel the majority of people here don't trust their government with that kind of power.
postalrat 5y ago
If we did what difference would it make? Are places with covid passports all doing better than their non-passport neighbors?
throwitaway1235 5y ago
A large number of Americans don't want to live in a police state.

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

by r00fus 5y ago

Can someone tell me why we (US) don't have a vaccine passport yet?

We cannot force some to isolate and others not too. We have reached a point where the vaccine is proven effective. Virtually anyone in the US that wanted to get a vaccine by now has had ample opportunity to do so. Those who choose not too will either contract the virus or not, that is their call. I am fully vaccinated and would encourage everyone to get vaccinated but I don't see how we have the right to force anyone to take a novel medication if they don't want to or restrict their movements. It is their body and their right to do as they wish. If we force people to take this medication, what is to stop people being forced to take something else that another group may disagree with. The US has moved past isolation, its just not going to happen again, there is no political will for it. I fully support vaccination, I just don't support a police state asking to check our papers.

Terretta 5y ago
And yet none of your argument applies to smoking, because it affects those around not just the smoker and imposes extraordinary costs on non-smoker’s insurance bill. Seems clear we can, and do, forbid individuals from physically and financially harming the community by their ‘personal’ choices. It is their body and their right to do as they wish — perhaps only as long as it harms no others who have the right to be unharmed.

pkulak 5y ago

30% of the population is violently (not a hyperbole) opposed to it.

fy20 5y ago
Europe isn't doing much better. It has a lower % fully vaccinated (around 30% in each country, I can't find exact numbers for the whole EU). In a lot of countries the vaccines are now available to everyone over 18, and you can book appointments within a few days or just turn up. In Poland they are running a financial lottery to encourage people to be vaccinated. https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/poland-dangles-lottery-jackpot-boost-covid-vaccination-drive-2021-05-25/ https://www.reuters.com/business/healthcare-pharmaceuticals/...
- _Microft 5y ago
  We are still supply-limited in Germany. The number of new first doses are currently down because we need these doses for the second ones instead. 36% fully vaccinated, 54% have received the first dose at least. The percentages are of the total population, i.e. including kids which cannot even receive the vaccine yet, so we aren’t doing that bad, imo. Check https://impfdashboard.de https://impfdashboard.de for up-to-date numbers.
asdff 5y ago
Yet we still require vaccinations to enroll in public schools and fly to certain countries, so none of this would be unprecedented at all.
- psychometry 5y ago
  When it comes to schools, anyone can claim a "religious exemption" to those rules (as if public health is a religious matter...). There's no verification or proof involved in claiming that exemption. It's a major loophole.
reducesuffering 5y ago
I wonder why, when many people on this thread aren't even capable of understanding the science pointing out the difference between vaccinated, previous covid infection antibodies, and no protection. There's repeated boxing into vaccinated and unvaccinated like natural antibodies mean nothing, contrary to the available science.
- adventured 5y ago
  The wild emotionalism that has overflowed during Covid, is unlikely to go back into the container, unfortunately. It's a hellish birth child of the lunacy of the social media era meets rampant pandemic hysteria. Software engineers (engineers in general actually) aren't special at all when it comes to being rational. They just like to think they are because of their field. It's identical to Stephen Hawking thinking he had special insight on politics, because he was gifted at one thing; or a famous actor thinking they have special insight on politics because they're gifted at one thing. Engineers are just as prone to failing to control their emotions properly, bouts of subject irrationalism and failing to strive for objectivity as is the typical person. Your typical software engineer on HN is no more rational than the typical plumber, the plumber is just likely more honest about it and less full of their self. You see it in every thread on HN, yet the rational engineer myth persists, amusingly.

motohagiography 5y ago

What outcome does a domestic vaccine passport achieve? I work in health information privacy, where regulations were written to prevent that specific situation. There's no denying it's a proxy for political positions, so the case for it needs to be clear, especially in a world where people say in public that it is "irresponsible," to entertain critical opinions. What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve?

JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> What problem does a domestic vaccine passport solve? The same problem the Yellow Card [1] solves. Right now, I have a New York State electronic passport and a CDC paper proof of vaccination. The former works in New York City. The latter works across the U.S., at least now. (At least, it worked in San Francisco and Atlanta.) If I travel abroad, I may need to get the latter re-certified since it's trivial to forge and not independently verifiable. Having a single, authoritative document fixes all this and makes socializing and commerce more frictionless. If we don't want to go into another lockdown when the Delta variant hits, we need to be able to isolate the vaccinated from the vulnerable. The former can continue mixing and mingling with reduced (though not zero) risk of causing a flare-up. The latter, I don't know, ideally they'd stay home but we know that won't happen. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_Jaune https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carte_Jaune
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- motohagiography 5y ago
  I would bet a huge personal sum that if there were a federal legal guarantee of no vaccine passports, hesitancy would evaporate overnight, and every single SMART health leak and backdoor regulation to enable them is creating an increasingly hard core and radicalized resistance movement. Yellow card is for some international travel and school enrollment. It is not a vaccine passport, so while I appreciate engaging the question, it's not clear that this is the same use case. Nobody asks an adult for their measles vaccination status in a normal domestic interaction like a concert, train, office, etc. I think most people should get vaccinated and we can all move on with our lives, however, I also think a generalized vaccine passport for domestic use is an abomination with inevitable and horrific consequences, and so I am trying to get a sense of what the sincere case for it is. If it's just leveraging the crisis to institute bureaucratic social controls, I'll be the most reasonable man on the barricades. We need a better "why" that is actually true, and not a cynical "noble lie," (like masks/no-masks was), because when you actually get off the internet and talk to people, it's the percieved lies and the attitudes of the people who tell them that are creating the hesitancy. If a covid-unvaccinated person goes into a stadium or bar full of covid-vaccinated people, what is the effect? The only way the shots get more traction is with a clear and honest answer to that, imo.

reedjosh 5y ago

Because authoritarianism is antithetical to our founding nature. A centralized database that is used to control individuals is akin to China's social credit system. I've actually started seeing people argue for China style systems, and I find it both frightening and sickening. When I start to push back at all, I usually get arguments like `Leave the US if you don't like it.`, and sure I'll just pick up and leave the country I was born in, but beyond that where will I be able to go? If I just want my own individual rights, where in the world will I be able to go if what is basically the last bastion of freedom and individualism is lost to tyrannical majority rule?

standardUser 5y ago
Every American is in a whole myriad of government databases form the federal level on down. Pretending otherwise, or pretending that the next database will be the one to break individualism and lead to autocracy, is just magical thinking.
- reedjosh 5y ago
  I don't at all disagree, but this will be the first one openly limiting freedoms via the government's monopoly of force. I do believe there are others already doing so too, but none of them are open and acknowledged by the public.
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    That's not true at all, several of our lists already limit constitutionally approved freedoms. The No Fly List and felony registration for gun ownership being 2 examples. edit: before the downvotes start, agreement with those lists does not negate that they are restricting freedoms based on activities that added or removed someone from a list
    - reedjosh 5y ago
      > That's not true at all You got me there. I believe the No Fly list is a tragedy of Kafkaesque bureaucracy that I wish didn't exist. People have found themselves on it with little recourse. I haven't researched the felony registration list enough to speak to it intelligently.

CaptArmchair 5y ago

The WHO has been issuing so-called Yellow Card certificates for decades. There are enough countries which will require vaccination against Polio, Yellow Fever and Meningococcal meningitis in order for you to cross borders. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_Vaccination_or_Prophylaxis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Certificate_of_V... Moreover, one of the first international certificate issued (1944) targetted Smallpox vaccinations and it's proliferation coincided with the booming air travel in the 1960's and 1970's. It is argued that the certificate was substantial towards preventing Smallpox from spreading in an age where endemic regions became only a few hours of flying away. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convention_for_Aerial_Navigation_(1933) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convent... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convention_for_Aerial_Navigation_(1944) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Sanitary_Convent... The United States signed and ratified the Convention back in 1945, essentially acknowledging that countries are able to require U.S. citizens to have a vaccine certificate. While the Convention dates back 75 years, today's Yellow Card is the de facto standard for certifying that you have gotten shots at a border. COVID-19 poses a challenge as this disease is highly infectious and crippling enough that preventing spread has become a far bigger global priority then other infectious diseases such as Yellow Fever. However, as of yet, a digital, secure, widely adopted solution that goes beyond the WHO's Yellow Card is still in the works. Several airlines and the IATA are working on their own travellers pass, but realistically, a trusted vaccination passport which is globally recognized requires an international treaty between nations governments. The world hasn't arrived at this point yet, and most countries still operate their own systems such as passenger locator forms or national passes issued to their own citizens. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_international_travel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaccination_requirements_for_i...

willmadden 5y ago

I feel the majority of people here don't trust their government with that kind of power.

postalrat 5y ago

If we did what difference would it make? Are places with covid passports all doing better than their non-passport neighbors?

throwitaway1235 5y ago

A large number of Americans don't want to live in a police state.