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> Breaking courses into useless 2-minute chunks and constant unhelpful quizzes. I really just want to hear the lecturer speak for 20-30 minutes at a time uninte

> Breaking courses into useless 2-minute chunks and constant unhelpful quizzes. I really just want to hear the lecturer speak for 20-30 minutes at a time uninterrupted, especially if I'm listening while doing dishes etc. I disagree. If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course. One of the best things about digital courses is that you don’t have to spend an hour zoning out to a professor talking and then spend a day doing exercises, but the two can be intertwined and knowledge can be cemented. Of course it can be done terribly. But the best online courses I’ve taken have split things up into small chunks with relevant exercises.

lmohseni 5y ago
> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course. Sometimes I like to listen to a lecture 2 or 3 or even more times. Sometimes I like to listen to a lecture when I'm going for a run. Sometimes I like to listen while I'm doing chores. Seems presumptuous to say I'm "not taking the course" when we know that learning styles vary so much between individuals.
- itsoktocry 5y ago
  >Sometimes I like to listen to a lecture 2 or 3 or even more times. YouTube has a ton of lectures, for free, that you can view and/or listen to in this manner. But doing dishes during a lecture seems antithetical to what they are trying to achieve with remote learning, and isn't the use case they should be catering to.
  - benrbray 5y ago
    It's not really catering to disable a feature. You can call it "audit" mode and offer no credential.
    - ncallaway 5y ago
      Sure they could do that. You're essentially asking them to implement an additional feature to handle a new use case—a totally reasonable thing to ask. But it seems like it's really a stretch to say "it's a dark pattern to not implement this feature that covers my use case". If not implementing a desired feature is a "dark pattern", then I'm not really sure I know what constitutes a dark pattern
      - benrbray 5y ago
        The behavior I'm describing is how the website used to work. The put in extra work to prevent users like me from using it this way.
    - jhbadger 5y ago
      The problem with "audit" mode is that it is more than just not getting a credential (which I like most people who already have their educations don't need) but that often you can't take the online exams either. I still want to know if I've learned the material properly!
  - wpietri 5y ago
    The notion that there's a single concept of the purpose of remote learning and a single concept of how students learn is exactly the problem. It baffles me that people expect to take a process optimized for a neurotypical 20-year-old subsidized enough to devote 100% time to study and apply it to everybody else on the planet. I get how physical universities ended up the way they did. But software is infinitely soft and the internet is basically everywhere. Insisting that everybody must learn the same way a bunch of well-off youth did in 1950 is grossly exclusionary and wasteful. In short, I don't care what the universities are trying to achieve with remote learning. I care what the students succeed in achieving. Let's focus on that.
    - itsoktocry 5y ago
      >Insisting that everybody must learn the same way a bunch of well-off youth did in 1950 is grossly exclusionary and wasteful. No one is saying "everyone must learn the same way". They are teaching a specific way, and are under no obligation to ensure that "your" unique needs are met. I mean, you say yourself there's no single concept of how students learn. So maybe explain how you'd expect them to to do it? There are all kinds of models out there. Udemy, Coursera, good old recorded lectures on YouTube. Find what works for you and use it.
  - kesselvon 5y ago
    In undergrad I'd listen to lectures while doing chores all the time, especially when the concepts are theoretical and it's more about just listening to the information. It won't work for a calculus lecture, but for a lot of topics it works just fine.
  - shkkmo 5y ago
    > But doing dishes during a lecture seems antithetical to what they are trying to achieve. They are trying to exclude large swathes of the population? It is extremely common for people with ADD to focus better when they keep the part of their brain that distracts them busy. In college I folded origami in lectures so that my brain wouldn't go off on tangents that would lead to me tuning out significant sections of the lecture. Some people combat the tangents by being busy, and some people embrace the tangents (which can be valuable for understanding) by listening to lectures multiple times.
    - itsoktocry 5y ago
      >It is extremely common for people with ADD to focus better when they keep the part of their brain that distracts them busy. They should cater to those people as opposed to other people for whom bite-sized learning works better? When did we become a society that expects everyone else to cater to our specific needs? No one is being "excluded". If that's the way you need to learn, fantastic. There are options out there for you. It wasn't that long ago when none of this existed.
      - shkkmo 5y ago
        > They should cater to those people as opposed to other people for whom bite-sized learning works better? I didn't say that. The claim was made that learning in this method is incompatible with taking a college level course. I was demonstrating how that attitude is both blatantly false and exclusionary. > When did we become a society that expects everyone else to cater to our specific needs? The value of accessibility and inclusivity in education has long been recognized. Why does online learning get a pass from considering this? Edit: There is no problem with one person saying "I learn better this way" and someone else saying ”I learn better this other way". The problem is when people say "the way you learn is inferior and not suited to college level material" because that is exclusionary.
  - nextaccountic 5y ago
    > But doing dishes during a lecture seems antithetical to what they are trying to achieve with remote learning, and isn't the use case they should be catering to. It seems, but it isn't. The inflexible way they structure their courses is just a failure to accommodate to different learning styles. And it's okay - they don't need to be everything for everyone - but it's disappointing.
nobrains 5y ago
Well, it depends on the kind of a learner you are. Some learners prefer to listen to long lectures and some short (and some might prefer interactivities, and others might prefer one-way communication). This is where personalized learning comes in, which is something in its infancy and being explored by academicians and especially companies focused on e-learning delivery. (I work in tech at an online / blended learning higher education institution). Now this comment by OP (benrbray) and you (wodenokoto) gives me an idea that courses can be designed in a way that the learner can mention how much hands-free time they have to spare now, depending on which the platform can hold off any interactivities / quizzes until then (or something like that), to make the learning process more personalized.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  The problem with this "personalized learning" approach is that, outside of MIT OCW, everyone seems to have skipped implementing the normal, long lecture in front of blackboard to watch method straight to interactive laden content.
benrbray 5y ago
> I disagree. That's something we have in common :). My disagreement spans a few dimensions: * I've already been through school. An undergraduate and graduate degree already taught me how to learn. I have good habits, and I know how to buckle down and study when needed. For me, I find that having something to do with my hands while listening to a lecture actually helps me stay more focused on the topic. Before and after watching, I like to review the slides, do some reading, and take notes. * I already have degrees. I'm not looking for extra credential. I'm just looking to learn something new from someone qualified to teach me who can filter out what's important and what's not. It would be nice to have the opportunity to listen without necessarily jumping through all the hoops of a normal college class. * Sometimes I already have background knowledge that overlaps with the course content. In these cases, it's really frustrating when a course won't let me skip around and focus on the topics that I want to learn. The quickest way to get me to drop an online course is to make me sit through lecture content that I've already learned before somewhere else. * Different students learn in different ways. You might like that the frequent quiz interruptions hold you accountable. That's great! For me, I don't find it too helpful. Usually the mid-lecture quizzes are simple "are you listening?" questions that don't really test your deep understanding. I'd rather go through a set of exercises all at once after listening to the lecture. Basically, I see no reason online courses can't be structured to give us more choices about how we want to consume the content!
- truth_ 5y ago
  Exactly. When I find overlapping content in MOOCs, it becomes very annoying. I don't want to miss out a valuable insight I might gain listening to a different instructor speaking for a different point-of-view. The RoI is quite low. But it has happened in the past, so I don't want to skip overlapping content. So listening to it while tidying up or cleaning the desk makes sense. And for new content, I never watch lectures with other things. I never did. And I still find 2-4 minutes videos annoying as hell.
- dataflow 5y ago
  Nothing wrong with what you want, but I'm thinking you might not be the target audience?
GrinningFool 5y ago
> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course Relatively mindless tasks to occupy my hands frees up my brain to focus. If I'm not doing dishes, I'm doodling or playing with a coin or, or...
whimsicalism 5y ago
> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course. One of the best things about digital courses is that you don’t have to spend an hour zoning out to a professor talking Strong disagree - as you point out in the next sentence, slightly distracted is the standard model of consumption for in person.
yarky 5y ago
> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course. It sounds like you assume everyone suffers ADHD and that's no the cause, not everybody learns the same way and the dish washing strategy always worked for me in college.
squeaky-clean 5y ago
What works best for me is to watch the lecture multiple times with different amounts of intensity/focus. Listening to a lecture while on a walk or doing other errands is a fantastic primer for when I rewind the lecture and watch it again with my pen and notebook in front of me. I picked this up from Mortimer J. Adler's "How to Read a Book". There's lots of other techniques discussed in it, but the idea of "skim the content first to know what's coming up, so you have an idea of what each chapter (or lecture) is building towards" improved my retention massively and works well for things that aren't just books.

lmohseni 5y ago

> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course. Sometimes I like to listen to a lecture 2 or 3 or even more times. Sometimes I like to listen to a lecture when I'm going for a run. Sometimes I like to listen while I'm doing chores. Seems presumptuous to say I'm "not taking the course" when we know that learning styles vary so much between individuals.

itsoktocry 5y ago
>Sometimes I like to listen to a lecture 2 or 3 or even more times. YouTube has a ton of lectures, for free, that you can view and/or listen to in this manner. But doing dishes during a lecture seems antithetical to what they are trying to achieve with remote learning, and isn't the use case they should be catering to.
- benrbray 5y ago
  It's not really catering to disable a feature. You can call it "audit" mode and offer no credential.
  - ncallaway 5y ago
    Sure they could do that. You're essentially asking them to implement an additional feature to handle a new use case—a totally reasonable thing to ask. But it seems like it's really a stretch to say "it's a dark pattern to not implement this feature that covers my use case". If not implementing a desired feature is a "dark pattern", then I'm not really sure I know what constitutes a dark pattern
    - benrbray 5y ago
      The behavior I'm describing is how the website used to work. The put in extra work to prevent users like me from using it this way.
  - jhbadger 5y ago
    The problem with "audit" mode is that it is more than just not getting a credential (which I like most people who already have their educations don't need) but that often you can't take the online exams either. I still want to know if I've learned the material properly!
- wpietri 5y ago
  The notion that there's a single concept of the purpose of remote learning and a single concept of how students learn is exactly the problem. It baffles me that people expect to take a process optimized for a neurotypical 20-year-old subsidized enough to devote 100% time to study and apply it to everybody else on the planet. I get how physical universities ended up the way they did. But software is infinitely soft and the internet is basically everywhere. Insisting that everybody must learn the same way a bunch of well-off youth did in 1950 is grossly exclusionary and wasteful. In short, I don't care what the universities are trying to achieve with remote learning. I care what the students succeed in achieving. Let's focus on that.
  - itsoktocry 5y ago
    >Insisting that everybody must learn the same way a bunch of well-off youth did in 1950 is grossly exclusionary and wasteful. No one is saying "everyone must learn the same way". They are teaching a specific way, and are under no obligation to ensure that "your" unique needs are met. I mean, you say yourself there's no single concept of how students learn. So maybe explain how you'd expect them to to do it? There are all kinds of models out there. Udemy, Coursera, good old recorded lectures on YouTube. Find what works for you and use it.
- kesselvon 5y ago
  In undergrad I'd listen to lectures while doing chores all the time, especially when the concepts are theoretical and it's more about just listening to the information. It won't work for a calculus lecture, but for a lot of topics it works just fine.
- shkkmo 5y ago
  > But doing dishes during a lecture seems antithetical to what they are trying to achieve. They are trying to exclude large swathes of the population? It is extremely common for people with ADD to focus better when they keep the part of their brain that distracts them busy. In college I folded origami in lectures so that my brain wouldn't go off on tangents that would lead to me tuning out significant sections of the lecture. Some people combat the tangents by being busy, and some people embrace the tangents (which can be valuable for understanding) by listening to lectures multiple times.
  - itsoktocry 5y ago
    >It is extremely common for people with ADD to focus better when they keep the part of their brain that distracts them busy. They should cater to those people as opposed to other people for whom bite-sized learning works better? When did we become a society that expects everyone else to cater to our specific needs? No one is being "excluded". If that's the way you need to learn, fantastic. There are options out there for you. It wasn't that long ago when none of this existed.
    - shkkmo 5y ago
      > They should cater to those people as opposed to other people for whom bite-sized learning works better? I didn't say that. The claim was made that learning in this method is incompatible with taking a college level course. I was demonstrating how that attitude is both blatantly false and exclusionary. > When did we become a society that expects everyone else to cater to our specific needs? The value of accessibility and inclusivity in education has long been recognized. Why does online learning get a pass from considering this? Edit: There is no problem with one person saying "I learn better this way" and someone else saying ”I learn better this other way". The problem is when people say "the way you learn is inferior and not suited to college level material" because that is exclusionary.
- nextaccountic 5y ago
  > But doing dishes during a lecture seems antithetical to what they are trying to achieve with remote learning, and isn't the use case they should be catering to. It seems, but it isn't. The inflexible way they structure their courses is just a failure to accommodate to different learning styles. And it's okay - they don't need to be everything for everyone - but it's disappointing.

nobrains 5y ago

Well, it depends on the kind of a learner you are. Some learners prefer to listen to long lectures and some short (and some might prefer interactivities, and others might prefer one-way communication). This is where personalized learning comes in, which is something in its infancy and being explored by academicians and especially companies focused on e-learning delivery. (I work in tech at an online / blended learning higher education institution). Now this comment by OP (benrbray) and you (wodenokoto) gives me an idea that courses can be designed in a way that the learner can mention how much hands-free time they have to spare now, depending on which the platform can hold off any interactivities / quizzes until then (or something like that), to make the learning process more personalized.

whimsicalism 5y ago
The problem with this "personalized learning" approach is that, outside of MIT OCW, everyone seems to have skipped implementing the normal, long lecture in front of blackboard to watch method straight to interactive laden content.

benrbray 5y ago

> I disagree. That's something we have in common :). My disagreement spans a few dimensions: * I've already been through school. An undergraduate and graduate degree already taught me how to learn. I have good habits, and I know how to buckle down and study when needed. For me, I find that having something to do with my hands while listening to a lecture actually helps me stay more focused on the topic. Before and after watching, I like to review the slides, do some reading, and take notes. * I already have degrees. I'm not looking for extra credential. I'm just looking to learn something new from someone qualified to teach me who can filter out what's important and what's not. It would be nice to have the opportunity to listen without necessarily jumping through all the hoops of a normal college class. * Sometimes I already have background knowledge that overlaps with the course content. In these cases, it's really frustrating when a course won't let me skip around and focus on the topics that I want to learn. The quickest way to get me to drop an online course is to make me sit through lecture content that I've already learned before somewhere else. * Different students learn in different ways. You might like that the frequent quiz interruptions hold you accountable. That's great! For me, I don't find it too helpful. Usually the mid-lecture quizzes are simple "are you listening?" questions that don't really test your deep understanding. I'd rather go through a set of exercises all at once after listening to the lecture. Basically, I see no reason online courses can't be structured to give us more choices about how we want to consume the content!

truth_ 5y ago
Exactly. When I find overlapping content in MOOCs, it becomes very annoying. I don't want to miss out a valuable insight I might gain listening to a different instructor speaking for a different point-of-view. The RoI is quite low. But it has happened in the past, so I don't want to skip overlapping content. So listening to it while tidying up or cleaning the desk makes sense. And for new content, I never watch lectures with other things. I never did. And I still find 2-4 minutes videos annoying as hell.
dataflow 5y ago
Nothing wrong with what you want, but I'm thinking you might not be the target audience?

GrinningFool 5y ago

> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course Relatively mindless tasks to occupy my hands frees up my brain to focus. If I'm not doing dishes, I'm doodling or playing with a coin or, or...

whimsicalism 5y ago

> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course. One of the best things about digital courses is that you don’t have to spend an hour zoning out to a professor talking Strong disagree - as you point out in the next sentence, slightly distracted is the standard model of consumption for in person.

yarky 5y ago

> If you’re doing dishes you are not taking a college level course. It sounds like you assume everyone suffers ADHD and that's no the cause, not everybody learns the same way and the dish washing strategy always worked for me in college.

squeaky-clean 5y ago

What works best for me is to watch the lecture multiple times with different amounts of intensity/focus. Listening to a lecture while on a walk or doing other errands is a fantastic primer for when I rewind the lecture and watch it again with my pen and notebook in front of me. I picked this up from Mortimer J. Adler's "How to Read a Book". There's lots of other techniques discussed in it, but the idea of "skim the content first to know what's coming up, so you have an idea of what each chapter (or lecture) is building towards" improved my retention massively and works well for things that aren't just books.