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There's a test I'd like to give someone with your abilities one day, and I'd love if you took the time to try this. I forget where I originally saw it, but it g

There's a test I'd like to give someone with your abilities one day, and I'd love if you took the time to try this. I forget where I originally saw it, but it goes something like this: Imagine you're looking down on a grid of squares. It's a little bit like a chess board, but it's only four squares wide and four squares high. In each square is a single letter, and each horizontal row spells a four-letter word. The top row spells "SEER" , the second row spells "SLAP", the third row spells "HEAL", and the bottom row spells "TRIM". While visualizing this grid of letters in front of you, can you now tell me which words you see running either vertically or diagonally? You should be able to do this by looking at the grid and without having to do any sorting of letters in your mind. My suspicion is that people who claim they can visualize images perfectly won't be able to do this, despite only having to memorize four words to complete the picture.

greazy 5y ago
This is a very interesting test. I wonder if there is a simpler version of this test as it seem to be aimed at high level vividness? I'm on one spectrum (absolutely no imagination), this test might be aimed at the other end.
the_af 5y ago
> My suspicion is that people who claim they can visualize images perfectly won't be able to do this Note: I do not "claim" to visualize, I can do it, like many others. Remember that aphantasia is the uncommon condition. I cannot see vertical or diagonal words and in fact have trouble focusing on the words. I can see one at a time clearly, but if I focus on the others the rest become blurry. I can see the checkered board though. I suspect this is because your example is too artificial and analytical. My visual mind doesn't work analytically like this. I can see the face of my friends and family with lots of details (I can see them with different hair cuts for example), even hear their voices. I can remember scenes from my last vacation clearly, in full color. But I cannot do a crossword puzzle visually, sorry. I can see equations floating in my mind, but only if I focus on a narrow section; and I obviously cannot do serious math with them.
- dorkwood 5y ago
  Thank you for your answer. The reason I wanted to give this test is that I think we may be experiencing the same thing, but interpreting what we see differently. I too can recall scenes from my last holiday trip. I can "see" the night time scene at the bar, the placement of me and my friends around the table, the lady in a white shirt delivering our drinks -- but it's not the same as a real photograph. It's a different type of vision altogether. It's possible that there are people who are experiencing the same thing as I am, but are describing what they are seeing as a clear photograph. My argument is that it's not a clear photograph if you can't inspect any details.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Oh, agreed. It's not as clear as a photograph and you have to make an effort to "pin down" the image. In fact, I suspect many of my mental images are inaccurate and my brain is making some stuff up. I'm not claiming to have perfect recall, just that I see visual imagery with my mind :)
  - the_af 5y ago
    Out of curiosity, can you also not hear "vivid" music in your mind? My friend can't, at best he can "hear" himself mumbling something resembling the original piece. I however can hear passages of music I remember well: the opening from Star Wars, parts of Kind of Blue or songs from Pink Floyd, the intro song of many TV shows, etc. I probably cannot pass a test equivalent to the crossword puzzle either, but I definitely can hear the music and it's not just me mumbling in my head.
    - dorkwood 5y ago
      Interesting question! I can "hear" the Star Wars theme, and the brass and strings or whatever it is that makes that iconic sound, but it's not the same as the real thing. I think the best way to describe it is that the music and images in my head are both experienced with the same level of clarity as my inner-monologue. My inner-monologue doesn't sound like a real voice in the room with me. As in, there's no way to confuse it with real sound. But it has the same tone and feel as my own voice, just as the music in my head has the same tone and feel as the real music. This is where I think the difference in description is happening between myself and others. I've experienced both visual and auditory hallucinations before. These are indistinguishable from real images and sounds. When I picture things, play music, or talk out-loud in my own head, it's not the same as reality. It's a different type of seeing and hearing. Some people seem to imply that their imagination capabilities are on the same level as hallucinations. They say they can picture things with picture-perfect clarity, right there in the same room with them. I even had one artist say he could overlay an image on a piece of paper with his mind and then trace over it. I have another test I'd like to ask these people: is it possible to picture a black square that sits in front of your eyes and obscures your whole vision? If not, why not?
dekhn 5y ago
I can't do this. I simply can't imagine that grid in my head fully populated; I have to keep going back to the text. If I concentrate extremely hard, I can kind of keep one or two of the words pictured in my head for a millisecond.

greazy 5y ago

This is a very interesting test. I wonder if there is a simpler version of this test as it seem to be aimed at high level vividness? I'm on one spectrum (absolutely no imagination), this test might be aimed at the other end.

the_af 5y ago

> My suspicion is that people who claim they can visualize images perfectly won't be able to do this Note: I do not "claim" to visualize, I can do it, like many others. Remember that aphantasia is the uncommon condition. I cannot see vertical or diagonal words and in fact have trouble focusing on the words. I can see one at a time clearly, but if I focus on the others the rest become blurry. I can see the checkered board though. I suspect this is because your example is too artificial and analytical. My visual mind doesn't work analytically like this. I can see the face of my friends and family with lots of details (I can see them with different hair cuts for example), even hear their voices. I can remember scenes from my last vacation clearly, in full color. But I cannot do a crossword puzzle visually, sorry. I can see equations floating in my mind, but only if I focus on a narrow section; and I obviously cannot do serious math with them.

dorkwood 5y ago
Thank you for your answer. The reason I wanted to give this test is that I think we may be experiencing the same thing, but interpreting what we see differently. I too can recall scenes from my last holiday trip. I can "see" the night time scene at the bar, the placement of me and my friends around the table, the lady in a white shirt delivering our drinks -- but it's not the same as a real photograph. It's a different type of vision altogether. It's possible that there are people who are experiencing the same thing as I am, but are describing what they are seeing as a clear photograph. My argument is that it's not a clear photograph if you can't inspect any details.
- the_af 5y ago
  Oh, agreed. It's not as clear as a photograph and you have to make an effort to "pin down" the image. In fact, I suspect many of my mental images are inaccurate and my brain is making some stuff up. I'm not claiming to have perfect recall, just that I see visual imagery with my mind :)
- the_af 5y ago
  Out of curiosity, can you also not hear "vivid" music in your mind? My friend can't, at best he can "hear" himself mumbling something resembling the original piece. I however can hear passages of music I remember well: the opening from Star Wars, parts of Kind of Blue or songs from Pink Floyd, the intro song of many TV shows, etc. I probably cannot pass a test equivalent to the crossword puzzle either, but I definitely can hear the music and it's not just me mumbling in my head.
  - dorkwood 5y ago
    Interesting question! I can "hear" the Star Wars theme, and the brass and strings or whatever it is that makes that iconic sound, but it's not the same as the real thing. I think the best way to describe it is that the music and images in my head are both experienced with the same level of clarity as my inner-monologue. My inner-monologue doesn't sound like a real voice in the room with me. As in, there's no way to confuse it with real sound. But it has the same tone and feel as my own voice, just as the music in my head has the same tone and feel as the real music. This is where I think the difference in description is happening between myself and others. I've experienced both visual and auditory hallucinations before. These are indistinguishable from real images and sounds. When I picture things, play music, or talk out-loud in my own head, it's not the same as reality. It's a different type of seeing and hearing. Some people seem to imply that their imagination capabilities are on the same level as hallucinations. They say they can picture things with picture-perfect clarity, right there in the same room with them. I even had one artist say he could overlay an image on a piece of paper with his mind and then trace over it. I have another test I'd like to ask these people: is it possible to picture a black square that sits in front of your eyes and obscures your whole vision? If not, why not?

dekhn 5y ago

I can't do this. I simply can't imagine that grid in my head fully populated; I have to keep going back to the text. If I concentrate extremely hard, I can kind of keep one or two of the words pictured in my head for a millisecond.