9 ms·

The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric

24 points by pietrofmaggi 5y ago

uniqueuid 5y ago
Of course, the rational arguments are almost all in favor of electric. But he's not going to win many friends here with that quote! >old-school petrolheads screaming … that part of the fun is to be pat of the machine … It’s like the old-school nerds refusing to adopt graphical user interfaces in the 80s. Give me bazaar-style composable UIs and I'll stop being an old-school nerd. Don't have any? Thought so!
- zhdc1 5y ago
  > It’s like the old-school nerds refusing to adopt graphical user interfaces in the 80s. This is ironic.
- akho 5y ago
  Emacs is a GUI.
mnd999 5y ago
Still doesn't work for my use case. I commute on public transport, live in an apartment with only on-street parking, there is limited on-street charging but it's massively oversubscribed. Mostly I drive longer distances for hiking trips, weekends away music festivals, visiting family etc. Very few of these destinations have charging options. I've seen how this can work, I drove an electric Hyundai Ionic as a hire car in South Korea a couple of years ago. The car was great and there are chargers everywhere, but we're nowhere near that point in the UK as yet.
- toxik 5y ago
  A big problem in my city is that street charging stations have to compete with regular parking spots, so a spot is either just a normal parking spot, or blessed for EVs only. Bit of a thorn in the eye of less rich people who can’t afford an EV. Second, they’re competing with bicycle parking and bicycle lanes. Spots are getting fewer because of this. Third, cars are getting larger, leading to larger parking spots required, and therefore a lower spot density.
- Milner08 5y ago
  Hmm, interesting. In London at least it doesn't look like the on-street charging is particularly over subscribed, although it obviously would become so if everyone followed this without drastic improvements. I think it really depends on the area but parking by my old flat had chargers in the lamp posts, by my friends there are proper electric only bays with faster chargers, etc. If your main use case is long trips though I agree, although service stations in the UK do have pretty good electric charging infrastructure. My parents have just switched to electric and while its a slight change in how you operate (maybe stop for a coffee and let the dog stretch his legs while they are plugged into a fast charger for 20 mins) they seem pretty happy with it.
  - rytis 5y ago
    Another anecdata point - an acquaintance got Tesla. And now instead of just rocking up to a nearest petrol station he's in constant mode of planning trips, checking for available charging stations, leaving the car few blocks away for charging, etc, etc. He's still happy apparently, because it's very pleasant ride and so on. But from my point of view it's a massive downgrade in comfort.
- zhdc1 5y ago
  Same experience. The infrastructure simply isn't there yet in most towns or cities. Those who think otherwise forget that a large number of people in OECD countries don't own their own parking spots or have the legal right to run electricity or install their own chargers. They also seem to greatly underestimate what it would cost to saturate street-side parking spots with car chargers. Charging will eventually become convenient for people who don´t live in detached housing or happen to be in a small handful of forward-thinking towns or cities, but it's going to take a fair amount of time.
- dmytroi 5y ago
  It almost almost starts to work with latest models. I just got Kona 64KWh version last week and my math was among the lines of: it can do 400km/250miles of realistic driving, I do need a 20-40 min break after 400-500km anyway, that is enough to charge it up on fast charger to continue my trip. Kona is not ideal because it needs 40-50 min to charge, but Tesla Model 3, VW id.3/id.4 and others can do 125kwh+ charge rates so can charge in <30min. I think I'll stay with Kona for 2-3 years and then jump to something that can charge faster. So math of getting to destination starts to work, then you get to destination charging and that is more tricky. The car wants 16KWh per 100km, and charging from power socket you can realistically pull 1.6-2KWh, so overnight you can expect to be able to charge 100km of range without much of infrastructure (without level 2 chargers I mean). So my conclusion is that it's not plug-and-play just yet, but it nearly works, and benefits of electrics starts to outweigh the disadvantage of looking for a power socket.
- Hypx_ 5y ago
  The next stage is hydrogen powered cars. All of the upsides of electric cars but none of the downsides.
toxik 5y ago
> It’s like the old-school nerds refusing to adopt graphical user interfaces in the 80s. It’s a mindset that once gotten rid of, looking back you can’t understand why you ever thought that way. … which is exactly what most power users are still doing with terminals and tooling that is as old as modern computing. Did he just inadvertently argue against his own point? There are many great arguments for EVs, but this text missed the mark completely.
- rocqua 5y ago
  Very few power users forego GUIs. Your IDE is (probably) a GUI, your browser is (probably) a GUI, so are many other things. A more nerdy argument would be virtual memory addresses, automated testing, better compiler warnings, etc.
  - busterarm 5y ago
    I've made a pretty successful career out of just a terminal and vim, which drives 95% of what I do work wise. I only need the browser for slack, zoom and jira. And jira I could interact with through vim/emacs if I really hated myself. Slack and zoom I mostly view as distractions from work. It honestly would make sense for me to use my laptop for browser-based work and be entirely terminal-only with my workstation. Lots of people like us still exist in the workplace. I'm not even 40 yet.
    - jgb1984 5y ago
      Same here! Under 40, and have been using debian, bash and vim for over 25 years in both my private and professional life (as a python dev). Oh and weechat for libera IRC of course ;)
busterarm 5y ago
Lots of us petrolheads like electric cars. What we don't like are cars plagued by build quality issues and that we're not even _allowed_ by the manufacturer to wrench on it ourselves (a quality we also strongly dislike about modern ICE cars as well). The black box nature is what makes it antithetical. The rates that Teslas are getting totaled out for what should be repairable issues are also a hot issue for us.
- 6f8986c3 5y ago
  Wait, does that mean that you can pick up salvage title Teslas…?
  - busterarm 5y ago
    Yes, but you won't be able to supercharge them (if not now, then at some point soon). Rich Rebuilds has gone over the headaches of this extensively and you'll notice the last year or so of his content has nothing to do with Teslas.
    - 6f8986c3 5y ago
      I’m actually fine with that. Other than me scrounging around in the usual places, any links to where I should start looking for salvage titles?
      - busterarm 5y ago
        Same places as for any other car really. :) Wholesaler auctions are your best bet.
  - dlsa 5y ago
    If you can it sounds like a wild ride getting various parts to coexist. I'm expecting components to be "smart" enough to self-report and disable each other in obscure ways. I recall a few people doing mod work on recovered teslas and building a working one from two broken vehicles, but then having various usage issues.
buro9 5y ago
Agreed. However... I'd still argue if you have a car today that you own... Stretch ownership to another 5 years. I'm currently on vacation in the lake District in the UK and the car I have is Volvo T8 twin engine. I can't charge this thing anywhere. Charging spots in hotels aren't available to non residents, the solitary charging spots in car parks are taken, and the cottage I'm in has a very strange weak circuit that I can't charge the car from. Anecdotally I've seen no Tesla's or Porsche Taycan, or even Leaf's... Those were left behind at the M6. It feels like infrastructure has yet to really catch up to need. It will. But today, if you still own a hybrid, ICE, twin engine... Keep it a while longer. By that time Polestar and the like will have incredible cars available for less than the current price. The wait will be worth it.
- rob74 5y ago
  Absolutely - I had to get a new car in 2019 (because I, er, kinda wrecked the old one - no one got hurt fortunately, but the car was 10 years old already, so an economic total loss :( ), and I hope this one lasts 10 years too. By that time, EV technology should definitely be at a point where you won't have to think twice about buying an EV.
- zhdc1 5y ago
  > It feels like infrastructure has yet to really catch up to need. It will. But today, if you still own a hybrid, ICE, twin engine... Keep it a while longer. It will, but it isn't something that will likely happen in a short period of time. Civil engineering projects take several years to plan and execute. There's also the question of who will pay for it.
roschdal 5y ago
Petrol cars have significantly longer driving range, which is important for transport efficiency. Petrol cars are significantly cheaper to buy. Petrol cars refuel significantly faster than electronic cars recharge. Petrol cars don't have a costly battery which degrades over time and pollutes.
- busterarm 5y ago
  Petrol cars actually work in extreme climates.
  - 6f8986c3 5y ago
    Petrol cars can be easily fixed in a driveway.
    - Causality1 5y ago
      This comment does not deserve downvotes. Tesla is every bit as anti-hobbyist as Apple or John Deere.
      - nickik 5y ago
        Did you know that Tesla is not the only EV company?
        Causality1 5y ago
        Tesla is 80% of the US BEV market. Which manufacturers make their electric vehicles easy to work on?
        nickik 5y ago
        No current company makes any of their modern cars deliberately easy to work on. No matter the %, the fact is you can get a car from VW, BMW, Daimler, Hyundai, Nissan and so on.
    - 5y ago
in3d 5y ago
There are good reasons for buying an EV but this article is not convincing. The author thinks an M3 is a “real sports car” (it’s definitely not), so no surprise that the article doesn’t talk about a big downside that makes EVs less fun to drive - their higher weight.
- busterarm 5y ago
  Heh...speaking of weight...Hoovie's Garage has me wanting an Austin-Healey Sprite Mark I. That'd be a real hoot to drive.
mindracer 5y ago
I would buy an electric car but the problem I have living in a terraced house is charging it. I don’t have off road parking and the street I’m on can’t easily accommodate chargers on the pavement.
- Milner08 5y ago
  On my old street (...not Old Street) in central London they installed standard ish plug in the lampposts with this RFID reader that let them know who to charge for the electricity. Seemed to work pretty well. Not sure how easy it is to get them installed though.
paganel 5y ago
> The first car I bought (after driving a self-repaired / built junk) was a Honda Civic type-R Yeah, no, not all of us have enough money to have had as our first car a "Honda Civic type-R". Probably the title should read be more like: "If You're At Least Comfortably Middle-Class The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric". But of course all this push to EVs is a huge regressive tax applied to the less-off people which is constantly ignored from the public discourse, so this type of attitude does not surprise me at all.
- scandox 5y ago
  I am an adherent of bangernomics[1]. I don't care at all about cars. But right now I just don't have the knowledge to buy a second hand EV. It's too risky and things are changing too fast. I'm afraid until there's a healthy and predictable second hand EV market, you are quite right. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/bangernomics-theory-and-practice-1.1093481 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/bangernomic...
  - asplake 5y ago
    I wonder if it is yet possible to lease secondhand EVs? I’ve leased two Toyota hybrids (both new) and for me it’s the way to go. (But don’t get me started on Toyota’s “self-charging hybrid nonsense”)
- rob74 5y ago
  Granted, EVs are still considerably more expensive than conventional cars, but that's not set in stone. Except for the battery, the rest of the car is much simpler than an ICE-based one, so once they are produced in greater numbers, prices should come down.
  - falcolas 5y ago
    Tesla alone sold over half a million cars in 2020. Where are these price drops? $35k for their cheapest model (whose design is now 4 years old) is not something easily afforded. For a point of comparison, you can buy a high end Subaru Outback for that same price, and it’s a really, really nice car.
keymone 5y ago
first world opinion.
adflux 5y ago
I can't charge it in front of my house, so no. I have to travel long distances for my job occasionally, and I don't get paid to wait at a charging station.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
Neil44 5y ago
The available options in the market filtered to your needs should tell you what your next car should be, not some article.
senectus1 5y ago
I need it to cost 50K AUD or less, be able to tow, be able to go at least 500k on one "tank"/Charge and fit at least 5 adults comfortably. After that I don't really care too much and would love to buy electric. But I don't see much in that space that fits that bill. (in my state/country anyhow)
dlsa 5y ago
I'd buy a EV tomorrow if it was cheap enough to do so for a practical commute vehicle, eg a small four door hatchback like a hyundai i30. For charging, EVs aren't an issue for me since I'd use mine for commute and the range of most of them is plenty sufficient enough I'd only need to recharge every week. For country driving I'd still be relatively ok if I had a trailer. That trailer requirement is not for fun. Its not optional or a "nice thing to have". I'd expect a EV to be a real vehicle and not some entertainment or otherwise toy. I frankly don't care about EVs for status purposes such as a sports car used to impress. It would be replacing my current workhorse commute vehicle and frankly none of the current EVs are actual competitors yet in realistic ways.
tayo42 5y ago
I don't actually like cars or driving enough to deal with being an early adopter. That's basically for enthusiasts to deal with. Though lately the idea of a hybrid pick up has been enticing. Seems like they are just starting to exist. The new ford one looks almost perfect except its not 4wd. The section about noise though is right, idk why we torture our selves with noise pollution. And how did people ever start to think they're cool by making more noise. Theres very few engines that sound good, and even then like the article said theres only very few times they should be heard. In general Im frustrated by this whole idea of fixing the climate by having individual consumers change their habits. We all know its pointless, we know what the big problems are and yet we still want all of us little people to pitch in. We really need to start going after the big polluters. Us little people will be doing plenty of "pitching in" after corporations punish us by passing their new costs on down to consumers.
- Gibbon1 5y ago
  > In general Im frustrated by this whole idea of fixing the climate by having individual consumers change their habits. I'm not really down with that either. Especially since the preferred policies center around 'nudges' which in practice are giveaways to wealthy and rubber hoses for the poor. Along with a Pollyanna hope that the magic of the market will deliver us a Unicorn without policy makers having to think hard and stick their necks out. I'm probably like you, I'm not enthused about getting in my car and driving with all the other schmucks while watching for bicyclists and errant pedestrians. I feel there is a need to reduce the need for cars. But that's a 50-100 year plan at this point. So we're stuck with cars and going electric is best worst option at this point.
mytailorisrich 5y ago
Whether your next car should be an electric really depends on when you think you'll need a new car. If you need a new car right now, it's still cheaper and probably more practical to buy a petrol car. If you do not need a new car right now, I think trying to keep your current car for another 5+ years then buying an EV may make sense (probably including for the environment). EV are taking off but it seems to me that they are still mostly bought by people with higher-than-average income and/or who are engaged on this issue.
Causality1 5y ago
I don't understand why PHEVs never caught on. The range and fueling speed of ICE and the convenience of BEVs.
bartread 5y ago
It's all well and good but (a) they're expensive to buy and maintain, and (b) whilst UK charging infra might be good enough to get you there on a long journey, it's nowhere near good enough to do so in predictable time (which is important to a lot of us). Also, basic practicalities: when I visit my parents there's no charging facility where they live so on at least some trips where the driving is more than just there and back I'd have to spend an hour driving somewhere, charging the car, and then driving back - time I'd rather spend with them given I'm often only with them for a day or two.
4wsn 5y ago
I don't like to discuss EVs in public because things quickly devolve into an inquisition if one doesn't fully embrace the messaging, but I'll bite. From an enthusiast perspective, I have no issues with an electric powertrain. The concept has a lot of promise once the implementation matures. The current issues I have with electric _powertrains_ (not vehicles) are: Relatively short battery lifespan, high replacement cost. Unrealistic range estimates. I live in Germany and the range is pathetic when traveling at actual Autobahn speeds, which is further worsened during the times of year when heating or cooling is required. Poor high speed performance, except in higher price brackets. The thing that these enthusiast-directed EV articles always seem to miss is this point. > Most car companies are adopting use of modern operating systems in their new cars. Most companies seem to couple this generational leap in in-car systems to their EV launches. If you, like me, want the best UX of the in-car system the quickest, it’s an EV you need to get. I'm not interested in an iPad on wheels. The ideal UX in a car should be as unobtrusive as possible. I should set my destination, select my playlist, and never have to interact with a touchscreen until I arrive at my destination. I have yet to see an EV that sticks to this philosophy. The new Porsche Taycan climate control vents are controlled via touchscreen, for example. This is insane. As for the environmental aspect, well, I'm probably going to regret saying this openly. We live in a fully industrialized world. Unless we're all willing to go back to using wind power to transport cargo and carriages to transport people, while simultaneously getting the world population back to pre-industrial levels, it's a bit too late. I don't think you're going to be saving anything with your EV. The messaging around this topic is akin to a man who burned his house down and is now discussing smoke alarms. It's too late, my friend.
- eftokay83 5y ago
  Well written! I still can't get over the fact that every (haptic!) button is replaced by some touch screen interface. I think it is pretty normal to change the air conditioning while on the road. Now it is kind of dangerous to change it because I need to look for the touch button. Yeah it looks nice, but until I get haptic feedback from a touchscreen, please don't remove buttons/knobs which are often used while driving.
- rat87 5y ago
  >As for the environmental aspect, well, I'm probably going to regret saying this openly. We live in a fully industrialized world. Unless we're all willing to go back to using wind power to transport cargo and carriages to transport people, while simultaneously getting the world population back to pre-industrial levels, it's a bit too late. I don't think you're going to be saving anything with your EV. The messaging around this topic is akin to a man who burned his house down and is now discussing smoke alarms. It's too late, my friend. It's definitely not too late, this sort of defeatist attitude is not only wrong but dismissive of the dangers. > I don't think you're going to be saving anything with your EV. This is also dead wrong, a quick switch to EV will substantially reduce the amount of carbon pollution, no need for mass killings. We simply need the government too provide right incentives to switch to cleaner and less energy usage
ppf 5y ago
>"Why bother doing anything here as China is polluting so much? The reality is that we have to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions. All. That includes every tonne we release here, in our home country. No matter what <insert another country> does, we have to stop our pollution here Now." Exporting your CO2 emissions to other countries (in the form of battery manufacture) does not achieve this goal. If anything, it's worse, because other countries like China will happily burn brown coal to power their factories. And if it really is so important to stop CO2 emissions, then I'm surprised the author of this article raved about the touchscreens and other electronic gadgets present in all EVs, as they are incredibly resource- and energy- intensive to manufacture (equivalent to the energy needed to drive 1000s of miles), and are not necessary. In fact, I'm surprised the author can tell us that we should enjoy the driving pleasure of EVs, which seems a completely luxurious thing in an article telling us we need to make significant changes to our lifestyle to save the environment. Also - the author only managed 1000km in one year on an ebike? That's embarassing, and makes it hard to justify the manufacturing expense in energy and materials of the battery and motor. I've had to start driving to work on more days, as I don't have the energy now I have two kids, but I still manage 2,500km of commuting per year on a regular bike (which is older than me), and on a very hilly route.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  > Exporting your CO2 emissions to other countries (in the form of battery manufacture) This does not make sense. Battery manufacture is no way equivalent to ICE emissions.
  - ppf 5y ago
    >Battery manufacture is no way equivalent to ICE emissions. How is it not? It takes a huge amount of energy to manufacture a battery pack (you spend about the first 1/3rd to 1/2 of an EV's life paying off the "CO2 debt"), and it generates all sorts of pollution in the process.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      Because they are two completely different things. One is the environmental cost of manufacture, and one is the environmental cost of usage. Electric and ICE vehicles both have both of these costs. They are all different. If you want to compare things, you need to actually look at all four numbers, not take two unrelated numbers and comparing them for dishonest reasons.
nathias 5y ago
I'll buy one when the prices are in my range (around $1000).
Lio 5y ago
Always amused when people call themselves "petrol head", really what they mean is just "car nerd". "I'm not someone dorkily obsessed with an ordinary, everyday item. I'm a glamorous petrol head! Just like Jeremy and the boys." Car. Nerd. :P
vishnugupta 5y ago
I had made this vow. The charging network in India is next to non-existent but I was OK to risk it and figure out a way to get it installed in my apartment. To compensate for the lack of charging network I need the range to be 700-800 KM so that I can use it for highway runs. But the ones that are available advertise somewhere between 300-400 KM which translates to 200-300 KM real world. So I bit the bullet and bought an ICE car. I really hope the range improves in next 5 years. Otherwise electric cars are only viable to those who can afford a 2nd car in India.
cpursley 5y ago
Alternative: Why your next city should be walkable Your gut (more burnt calories), wallet (no vehicle expenses) and family (less commuting and more family time) will thank you.
ruslan 5y ago
Although I like a lot big heavy SUVs (I own a Toyota LC200 diesel), I recently bought myself an EV scooter. It appeared it is pretty much more convenient to navigate through downtown using this small EV - it is ubiquitous, faster, brings joy while riding and you don't care about parking lots as much. The only negative part is you have to care about battery charge which takes huge amount of time compared to diesel/petrol.
apricot13 5y ago
we compromised with hybrid - because theres no electric charging in our building then we considered ones where you can take the battery inside and charge it but the range is ~60miles. Our commute is 80miles one way with no ability to charge at the other end. Next one will be electric though.
wink 5y ago
I'm gonna write what I'm writing every time this comes up. I live in Munich, a big city in Germany. I know zero people who live in an apartment (like I do) who can reasonably use an EV. All the friends and acquaintances who own an EV have a house with a garage, and thus they have no problems charging (incidentally none of them reside IN the city with their houses, because they're not millionaires). I'd have to go the supermarket parking lot, which is the only charging spot in a 1km radius that I know of. I don't think (although I haven't asked) if the building owner would be up for putting up charging in our parking lot. I somehow doubt it. I've yet to hear any even remotely sensible solution.
drivingmenuts 5y ago
When charging is as fast and simple and universal as filling your tank with gas, it will start to make sense. I can go on a long trip, with brief interruptions for refueling/refreshments/etc. and expect to reach my destination in a reasonable amount of time. With an EV, I’m inevitably going to be stuck somewhere, having completed the other tasks, but waiting for the vehicle to refuel enough to continue onward. Worse, if I reach the destination and there’s no easy way to immediately recharge for the trip back, then the vehicle is effectively useless, except as shelter. Until the EV infrastructure is as universal and simple as gas-power, it’s not an option.
taylodl 5y ago
If I were in the market for a $25K-$40K car then I would definitely look at an electric. But I'm not. The next car I'm going to buy is for my daughter who has to move out of her college dorm for her last two years of undergrad (her school only has dorms for the first two years). I'm looking for something used, small, and not super expensive. I'm leaning heavily towards a Honda Fit. Bottom line? The next car I buy is almost certain to have an internal combustion engine.
bwf93 5y ago
Where do I charge it?
yoav 5y ago
My next car will be a PHEV. Most my city driving is within the electric only range, so I basically never need to fill it up, but with a full charge and tank of gas it’s over 1,000km of range. While I’ll be able to charge it at grocery store or wherever if a charging spot is available to basically get free range, and charge it at home whenever I want, I won’t be reliant on charging and can get the best of both worlds when I choose. I intend to drive it over the next few years which gets close to the 2035 goalpost many countries have of deprecating ICE cars, and as electric and charging becomes cheaper and fewer people use gas at all I can pick what type of fuel to use (petrol or electric) based on what’s cheapest that week/month. PHEV are also up to half the cost of comparable full electric. I think if I never had to consider longer trips (2-4 hours of driving into the country) and I had access to a reliable at home charging I’d go electric tomorrow. I feel like for the next 1-5 years PHEV makes more sense for my situation.

24 points by pietrofmaggi 5y ago

Of course, the rational arguments are almost all in favor of electric. But he's not going to win many friends here with that quote! >old-school petrolheads screaming … that part of the fun is to be pat of the machine … It’s like the old-school nerds refusing to adopt graphical user interfaces in the 80s. Give me bazaar-style composable UIs and I'll stop being an old-school nerd. Don't have any? Thought so!

zhdc1 5y ago
> It’s like the old-school nerds refusing to adopt graphical user interfaces in the 80s. This is ironic.
akho 5y ago
Emacs is a GUI.

mnd999 5y ago

Still doesn't work for my use case. I commute on public transport, live in an apartment with only on-street parking, there is limited on-street charging but it's massively oversubscribed. Mostly I drive longer distances for hiking trips, weekends away music festivals, visiting family etc. Very few of these destinations have charging options. I've seen how this can work, I drove an electric Hyundai Ionic as a hire car in South Korea a couple of years ago. The car was great and there are chargers everywhere, but we're nowhere near that point in the UK as yet.

toxik 5y ago
A big problem in my city is that street charging stations have to compete with regular parking spots, so a spot is either just a normal parking spot, or blessed for EVs only. Bit of a thorn in the eye of less rich people who can’t afford an EV. Second, they’re competing with bicycle parking and bicycle lanes. Spots are getting fewer because of this. Third, cars are getting larger, leading to larger parking spots required, and therefore a lower spot density.
Milner08 5y ago
Hmm, interesting. In London at least it doesn't look like the on-street charging is particularly over subscribed, although it obviously would become so if everyone followed this without drastic improvements. I think it really depends on the area but parking by my old flat had chargers in the lamp posts, by my friends there are proper electric only bays with faster chargers, etc. If your main use case is long trips though I agree, although service stations in the UK do have pretty good electric charging infrastructure. My parents have just switched to electric and while its a slight change in how you operate (maybe stop for a coffee and let the dog stretch his legs while they are plugged into a fast charger for 20 mins) they seem pretty happy with it.
- rytis 5y ago
  Another anecdata point - an acquaintance got Tesla. And now instead of just rocking up to a nearest petrol station he's in constant mode of planning trips, checking for available charging stations, leaving the car few blocks away for charging, etc, etc. He's still happy apparently, because it's very pleasant ride and so on. But from my point of view it's a massive downgrade in comfort.
zhdc1 5y ago
Same experience. The infrastructure simply isn't there yet in most towns or cities. Those who think otherwise forget that a large number of people in OECD countries don't own their own parking spots or have the legal right to run electricity or install their own chargers. They also seem to greatly underestimate what it would cost to saturate street-side parking spots with car chargers. Charging will eventually become convenient for people who don´t live in detached housing or happen to be in a small handful of forward-thinking towns or cities, but it's going to take a fair amount of time.
dmytroi 5y ago
It almost almost starts to work with latest models. I just got Kona 64KWh version last week and my math was among the lines of: it can do 400km/250miles of realistic driving, I do need a 20-40 min break after 400-500km anyway, that is enough to charge it up on fast charger to continue my trip. Kona is not ideal because it needs 40-50 min to charge, but Tesla Model 3, VW id.3/id.4 and others can do 125kwh+ charge rates so can charge in <30min. I think I'll stay with Kona for 2-3 years and then jump to something that can charge faster. So math of getting to destination starts to work, then you get to destination charging and that is more tricky. The car wants 16KWh per 100km, and charging from power socket you can realistically pull 1.6-2KWh, so overnight you can expect to be able to charge 100km of range without much of infrastructure (without level 2 chargers I mean). So my conclusion is that it's not plug-and-play just yet, but it nearly works, and benefits of electrics starts to outweigh the disadvantage of looking for a power socket.
Hypx_ 5y ago
The next stage is hydrogen powered cars. All of the upsides of electric cars but none of the downsides.

toxik 5y ago

> It’s like the old-school nerds refusing to adopt graphical user interfaces in the 80s. It’s a mindset that once gotten rid of, looking back you can’t understand why you ever thought that way. … which is exactly what most power users are still doing with terminals and tooling that is as old as modern computing. Did he just inadvertently argue against his own point? There are many great arguments for EVs, but this text missed the mark completely.

rocqua 5y ago
Very few power users forego GUIs. Your IDE is (probably) a GUI, your browser is (probably) a GUI, so are many other things. A more nerdy argument would be virtual memory addresses, automated testing, better compiler warnings, etc.
- busterarm 5y ago
  I've made a pretty successful career out of just a terminal and vim, which drives 95% of what I do work wise. I only need the browser for slack, zoom and jira. And jira I could interact with through vim/emacs if I really hated myself. Slack and zoom I mostly view as distractions from work. It honestly would make sense for me to use my laptop for browser-based work and be entirely terminal-only with my workstation. Lots of people like us still exist in the workplace. I'm not even 40 yet.
  - jgb1984 5y ago
    Same here! Under 40, and have been using debian, bash and vim for over 25 years in both my private and professional life (as a python dev). Oh and weechat for libera IRC of course ;)

busterarm 5y ago

Lots of us petrolheads like electric cars. What we don't like are cars plagued by build quality issues and that we're not even _allowed_ by the manufacturer to wrench on it ourselves (a quality we also strongly dislike about modern ICE cars as well). The black box nature is what makes it antithetical. The rates that Teslas are getting totaled out for what should be repairable issues are also a hot issue for us.

6f8986c3 5y ago
Wait, does that mean that you can pick up salvage title Teslas…?
- busterarm 5y ago
  Yes, but you won't be able to supercharge them (if not now, then at some point soon). Rich Rebuilds has gone over the headaches of this extensively and you'll notice the last year or so of his content has nothing to do with Teslas.
  - 6f8986c3 5y ago
    I’m actually fine with that. Other than me scrounging around in the usual places, any links to where I should start looking for salvage titles?
    - busterarm 5y ago
      Same places as for any other car really. :) Wholesaler auctions are your best bet.
- dlsa 5y ago
  If you can it sounds like a wild ride getting various parts to coexist. I'm expecting components to be "smart" enough to self-report and disable each other in obscure ways. I recall a few people doing mod work on recovered teslas and building a working one from two broken vehicles, but then having various usage issues.

buro9 5y ago

Agreed. However... I'd still argue if you have a car today that you own... Stretch ownership to another 5 years. I'm currently on vacation in the lake District in the UK and the car I have is Volvo T8 twin engine. I can't charge this thing anywhere. Charging spots in hotels aren't available to non residents, the solitary charging spots in car parks are taken, and the cottage I'm in has a very strange weak circuit that I can't charge the car from. Anecdotally I've seen no Tesla's or Porsche Taycan, or even Leaf's... Those were left behind at the M6. It feels like infrastructure has yet to really catch up to need. It will. But today, if you still own a hybrid, ICE, twin engine... Keep it a while longer. By that time Polestar and the like will have incredible cars available for less than the current price. The wait will be worth it.

rob74 5y ago
Absolutely - I had to get a new car in 2019 (because I, er, kinda wrecked the old one - no one got hurt fortunately, but the car was 10 years old already, so an economic total loss :( ), and I hope this one lasts 10 years too. By that time, EV technology should definitely be at a point where you won't have to think twice about buying an EV.
zhdc1 5y ago
> It feels like infrastructure has yet to really catch up to need. It will. But today, if you still own a hybrid, ICE, twin engine... Keep it a while longer. It will, but it isn't something that will likely happen in a short period of time. Civil engineering projects take several years to plan and execute. There's also the question of who will pay for it.

roschdal 5y ago

Petrol cars have significantly longer driving range, which is important for transport efficiency. Petrol cars are significantly cheaper to buy. Petrol cars refuel significantly faster than electronic cars recharge. Petrol cars don't have a costly battery which degrades over time and pollutes.

busterarm 5y ago
Petrol cars actually work in extreme climates.
- 6f8986c3 5y ago
  Petrol cars can be easily fixed in a driveway.
  - Causality1 5y ago
    This comment does not deserve downvotes. Tesla is every bit as anti-hobbyist as Apple or John Deere.
    - nickik 5y ago
      Did you know that Tesla is not the only EV company?
      - Causality1 5y ago
        Tesla is 80% of the US BEV market. Which manufacturers make their electric vehicles easy to work on?
        nickik 5y ago
        No current company makes any of their modern cars deliberately easy to work on. No matter the %, the fact is you can get a car from VW, BMW, Daimler, Hyundai, Nissan and so on.
  - 5y ago

in3d 5y ago

There are good reasons for buying an EV but this article is not convincing. The author thinks an M3 is a “real sports car” (it’s definitely not), so no surprise that the article doesn’t talk about a big downside that makes EVs less fun to drive - their higher weight.

busterarm 5y ago
Heh...speaking of weight...Hoovie's Garage has me wanting an Austin-Healey Sprite Mark I. That'd be a real hoot to drive.

mindracer 5y ago

I would buy an electric car but the problem I have living in a terraced house is charging it. I don’t have off road parking and the street I’m on can’t easily accommodate chargers on the pavement.

Milner08 5y ago
On my old street (...not Old Street) in central London they installed standard ish plug in the lampposts with this RFID reader that let them know who to charge for the electricity. Seemed to work pretty well. Not sure how easy it is to get them installed though.

paganel 5y ago

> The first car I bought (after driving a self-repaired / built junk) was a Honda Civic type-R Yeah, no, not all of us have enough money to have had as our first car a "Honda Civic type-R". Probably the title should read be more like: "If You're At Least Comfortably Middle-Class The Next Car You Buy Should Be Electric". But of course all this push to EVs is a huge regressive tax applied to the less-off people which is constantly ignored from the public discourse, so this type of attitude does not surprise me at all.

scandox 5y ago
I am an adherent of bangernomics[1]. I don't care at all about cars. But right now I just don't have the knowledge to buy a second hand EV. It's too risky and things are changing too fast. I'm afraid until there's a healthy and predictable second hand EV market, you are quite right. [1] https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/bangernomics-theory-and-practice-1.1093481 https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/motors/bangernomic...
- asplake 5y ago
  I wonder if it is yet possible to lease secondhand EVs? I’ve leased two Toyota hybrids (both new) and for me it’s the way to go. (But don’t get me started on Toyota’s “self-charging hybrid nonsense”)
rob74 5y ago
Granted, EVs are still considerably more expensive than conventional cars, but that's not set in stone. Except for the battery, the rest of the car is much simpler than an ICE-based one, so once they are produced in greater numbers, prices should come down.
- falcolas 5y ago
  Tesla alone sold over half a million cars in 2020. Where are these price drops? $35k for their cheapest model (whose design is now 4 years old) is not something easily afforded. For a point of comparison, you can buy a high end Subaru Outback for that same price, and it’s a really, really nice car.

keymone 5y ago

first world opinion.

adflux 5y ago

I can't charge it in front of my house, so no. I have to travel long distances for my job occasionally, and I don't get paid to wait at a charging station.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

Neil44 5y ago

The available options in the market filtered to your needs should tell you what your next car should be, not some article.

senectus1 5y ago

I need it to cost 50K AUD or less, be able to tow, be able to go at least 500k on one "tank"/Charge and fit at least 5 adults comfortably. After that I don't really care too much and would love to buy electric. But I don't see much in that space that fits that bill. (in my state/country anyhow)

dlsa 5y ago

I'd buy a EV tomorrow if it was cheap enough to do so for a practical commute vehicle, eg a small four door hatchback like a hyundai i30. For charging, EVs aren't an issue for me since I'd use mine for commute and the range of most of them is plenty sufficient enough I'd only need to recharge every week. For country driving I'd still be relatively ok if I had a trailer. That trailer requirement is not for fun. Its not optional or a "nice thing to have". I'd expect a EV to be a real vehicle and not some entertainment or otherwise toy. I frankly don't care about EVs for status purposes such as a sports car used to impress. It would be replacing my current workhorse commute vehicle and frankly none of the current EVs are actual competitors yet in realistic ways.

tayo42 5y ago

I don't actually like cars or driving enough to deal with being an early adopter. That's basically for enthusiasts to deal with. Though lately the idea of a hybrid pick up has been enticing. Seems like they are just starting to exist. The new ford one looks almost perfect except its not 4wd. The section about noise though is right, idk why we torture our selves with noise pollution. And how did people ever start to think they're cool by making more noise. Theres very few engines that sound good, and even then like the article said theres only very few times they should be heard. In general Im frustrated by this whole idea of fixing the climate by having individual consumers change their habits. We all know its pointless, we know what the big problems are and yet we still want all of us little people to pitch in. We really need to start going after the big polluters. Us little people will be doing plenty of "pitching in" after corporations punish us by passing their new costs on down to consumers.

Gibbon1 5y ago
> In general Im frustrated by this whole idea of fixing the climate by having individual consumers change their habits. I'm not really down with that either. Especially since the preferred policies center around 'nudges' which in practice are giveaways to wealthy and rubber hoses for the poor. Along with a Pollyanna hope that the magic of the market will deliver us a Unicorn without policy makers having to think hard and stick their necks out. I'm probably like you, I'm not enthused about getting in my car and driving with all the other schmucks while watching for bicyclists and errant pedestrians. I feel there is a need to reduce the need for cars. But that's a 50-100 year plan at this point. So we're stuck with cars and going electric is best worst option at this point.

mytailorisrich 5y ago

Whether your next car should be an electric really depends on when you think you'll need a new car. If you need a new car right now, it's still cheaper and probably more practical to buy a petrol car. If you do not need a new car right now, I think trying to keep your current car for another 5+ years then buying an EV may make sense (probably including for the environment). EV are taking off but it seems to me that they are still mostly bought by people with higher-than-average income and/or who are engaged on this issue.

Causality1 5y ago

I don't understand why PHEVs never caught on. The range and fueling speed of ICE and the convenience of BEVs.

bartread 5y ago

It's all well and good but (a) they're expensive to buy and maintain, and (b) whilst UK charging infra might be good enough to get you there on a long journey, it's nowhere near good enough to do so in predictable time (which is important to a lot of us). Also, basic practicalities: when I visit my parents there's no charging facility where they live so on at least some trips where the driving is more than just there and back I'd have to spend an hour driving somewhere, charging the car, and then driving back - time I'd rather spend with them given I'm often only with them for a day or two.

4wsn 5y ago

I don't like to discuss EVs in public because things quickly devolve into an inquisition if one doesn't fully embrace the messaging, but I'll bite. From an enthusiast perspective, I have no issues with an electric powertrain. The concept has a lot of promise once the implementation matures. The current issues I have with electric _powertrains_ (not vehicles) are: Relatively short battery lifespan, high replacement cost. Unrealistic range estimates. I live in Germany and the range is pathetic when traveling at actual Autobahn speeds, which is further worsened during the times of year when heating or cooling is required. Poor high speed performance, except in higher price brackets. The thing that these enthusiast-directed EV articles always seem to miss is this point. > Most car companies are adopting use of modern operating systems in their new cars. Most companies seem to couple this generational leap in in-car systems to their EV launches. If you, like me, want the best UX of the in-car system the quickest, it’s an EV you need to get. I'm not interested in an iPad on wheels. The ideal UX in a car should be as unobtrusive as possible. I should set my destination, select my playlist, and never have to interact with a touchscreen until I arrive at my destination. I have yet to see an EV that sticks to this philosophy. The new Porsche Taycan climate control vents are controlled via touchscreen, for example. This is insane. As for the environmental aspect, well, I'm probably going to regret saying this openly. We live in a fully industrialized world. Unless we're all willing to go back to using wind power to transport cargo and carriages to transport people, while simultaneously getting the world population back to pre-industrial levels, it's a bit too late. I don't think you're going to be saving anything with your EV. The messaging around this topic is akin to a man who burned his house down and is now discussing smoke alarms. It's too late, my friend.

eftokay83 5y ago
Well written! I still can't get over the fact that every (haptic!) button is replaced by some touch screen interface. I think it is pretty normal to change the air conditioning while on the road. Now it is kind of dangerous to change it because I need to look for the touch button. Yeah it looks nice, but until I get haptic feedback from a touchscreen, please don't remove buttons/knobs which are often used while driving.
rat87 5y ago
>As for the environmental aspect, well, I'm probably going to regret saying this openly. We live in a fully industrialized world. Unless we're all willing to go back to using wind power to transport cargo and carriages to transport people, while simultaneously getting the world population back to pre-industrial levels, it's a bit too late. I don't think you're going to be saving anything with your EV. The messaging around this topic is akin to a man who burned his house down and is now discussing smoke alarms. It's too late, my friend. It's definitely not too late, this sort of defeatist attitude is not only wrong but dismissive of the dangers. > I don't think you're going to be saving anything with your EV. This is also dead wrong, a quick switch to EV will substantially reduce the amount of carbon pollution, no need for mass killings. We simply need the government too provide right incentives to switch to cleaner and less energy usage

ppf 5y ago

>"Why bother doing anything here as China is polluting so much? The reality is that we have to eliminate greenhouse gas emissions. All. That includes every tonne we release here, in our home country. No matter what <insert another country> does, we have to stop our pollution here Now." Exporting your CO2 emissions to other countries (in the form of battery manufacture) does not achieve this goal. If anything, it's worse, because other countries like China will happily burn brown coal to power their factories. And if it really is so important to stop CO2 emissions, then I'm surprised the author of this article raved about the touchscreens and other electronic gadgets present in all EVs, as they are incredibly resource- and energy- intensive to manufacture (equivalent to the energy needed to drive 1000s of miles), and are not necessary. In fact, I'm surprised the author can tell us that we should enjoy the driving pleasure of EVs, which seems a completely luxurious thing in an article telling us we need to make significant changes to our lifestyle to save the environment. Also - the author only managed 1000km in one year on an ebike? That's embarassing, and makes it hard to justify the manufacturing expense in energy and materials of the battery and motor. I've had to start driving to work on more days, as I don't have the energy now I have two kids, but I still manage 2,500km of commuting per year on a regular bike (which is older than me), and on a very hilly route.

user-the-name 5y ago
> Exporting your CO2 emissions to other countries (in the form of battery manufacture) This does not make sense. Battery manufacture is no way equivalent to ICE emissions.
- ppf 5y ago
  >Battery manufacture is no way equivalent to ICE emissions. How is it not? It takes a huge amount of energy to manufacture a battery pack (you spend about the first 1/3rd to 1/2 of an EV's life paying off the "CO2 debt"), and it generates all sorts of pollution in the process.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    Because they are two completely different things. One is the environmental cost of manufacture, and one is the environmental cost of usage. Electric and ICE vehicles both have both of these costs. They are all different. If you want to compare things, you need to actually look at all four numbers, not take two unrelated numbers and comparing them for dishonest reasons.

nathias 5y ago

I'll buy one when the prices are in my range (around $1000).

Lio 5y ago

Always amused when people call themselves "petrol head", really what they mean is just "car nerd". "I'm not someone dorkily obsessed with an ordinary, everyday item. I'm a glamorous petrol head! Just like Jeremy and the boys." Car. Nerd. :P

vishnugupta 5y ago

I had made this vow. The charging network in India is next to non-existent but I was OK to risk it and figure out a way to get it installed in my apartment. To compensate for the lack of charging network I need the range to be 700-800 KM so that I can use it for highway runs. But the ones that are available advertise somewhere between 300-400 KM which translates to 200-300 KM real world. So I bit the bullet and bought an ICE car. I really hope the range improves in next 5 years. Otherwise electric cars are only viable to those who can afford a 2nd car in India.

cpursley 5y ago

Alternative: Why your next city should be walkable Your gut (more burnt calories), wallet (no vehicle expenses) and family (less commuting and more family time) will thank you.

ruslan 5y ago

Although I like a lot big heavy SUVs (I own a Toyota LC200 diesel), I recently bought myself an EV scooter. It appeared it is pretty much more convenient to navigate through downtown using this small EV - it is ubiquitous, faster, brings joy while riding and you don't care about parking lots as much. The only negative part is you have to care about battery charge which takes huge amount of time compared to diesel/petrol.

apricot13 5y ago

we compromised with hybrid - because theres no electric charging in our building then we considered ones where you can take the battery inside and charge it but the range is ~60miles. Our commute is 80miles one way with no ability to charge at the other end. Next one will be electric though.

wink 5y ago

I'm gonna write what I'm writing every time this comes up. I live in Munich, a big city in Germany. I know zero people who live in an apartment (like I do) who can reasonably use an EV. All the friends and acquaintances who own an EV have a house with a garage, and thus they have no problems charging (incidentally none of them reside IN the city with their houses, because they're not millionaires). I'd have to go the supermarket parking lot, which is the only charging spot in a 1km radius that I know of. I don't think (although I haven't asked) if the building owner would be up for putting up charging in our parking lot. I somehow doubt it. I've yet to hear any even remotely sensible solution.

drivingmenuts 5y ago

When charging is as fast and simple and universal as filling your tank with gas, it will start to make sense. I can go on a long trip, with brief interruptions for refueling/refreshments/etc. and expect to reach my destination in a reasonable amount of time. With an EV, I’m inevitably going to be stuck somewhere, having completed the other tasks, but waiting for the vehicle to refuel enough to continue onward. Worse, if I reach the destination and there’s no easy way to immediately recharge for the trip back, then the vehicle is effectively useless, except as shelter. Until the EV infrastructure is as universal and simple as gas-power, it’s not an option.

taylodl 5y ago

If I were in the market for a $25K-$40K car then I would definitely look at an electric. But I'm not. The next car I'm going to buy is for my daughter who has to move out of her college dorm for her last two years of undergrad (her school only has dorms for the first two years). I'm looking for something used, small, and not super expensive. I'm leaning heavily towards a Honda Fit. Bottom line? The next car I buy is almost certain to have an internal combustion engine.

bwf93 5y ago

Where do I charge it?

yoav 5y ago

My next car will be a PHEV. Most my city driving is within the electric only range, so I basically never need to fill it up, but with a full charge and tank of gas it’s over 1,000km of range. While I’ll be able to charge it at grocery store or wherever if a charging spot is available to basically get free range, and charge it at home whenever I want, I won’t be reliant on charging and can get the best of both worlds when I choose. I intend to drive it over the next few years which gets close to the 2035 goalpost many countries have of deprecating ICE cars, and as electric and charging becomes cheaper and fewer people use gas at all I can pick what type of fuel to use (petrol or electric) based on what’s cheapest that week/month. PHEV are also up to half the cost of comparable full electric. I think if I never had to consider longer trips (2-4 hours of driving into the country) and I had access to a reliable at home charging I’d go electric tomorrow. I feel like for the next 1-5 years PHEV makes more sense for my situation.