5 ms·

Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party.

by raunak 5y ago

busymom0 5y ago
> Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party. Please do not get tribal flame wars started especially if you are objectively wrong based on direction of politics. Biden admin is the one which last month banned menthol cigarettes and flavoured tobacco - 86% of blacks and 46% of hispanics prefer menthol cigarettes. Opposite of which, several of the pardons issued by the previous admin were for non-violent drug related crimes thrown in prison for life thanks to the 90s crime bill written by Biden.
- mholm 5y ago
  It seems disingenuous to me to ignore the absolute harm that menthol cigarettes have done to communities over the past several decades, lump that in with marijuana, and act like they should be treated similarly. This change will likely save hundreds of thousands of lives in the United States[1]. Yes, small freedoms are being taken away. This violates the libertarian ideal. The 90's crime bill you cite is absolutely an issue, and the pardons were good. But sometimes objective freedom and making America better go in different directions, and not always on political lines. [1]: https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/tobaccocontrol-2020-056259 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/toba...
  - busymom0 5y ago
    > But sometimes objective freedom and making America better go in different directions I don't see how thousands of people locked up for exercising their basic liberties is somehow "making America better". > It seems disingenuous to me to ignore the absolute harm that menthol cigarettes have done to communities over the past several decades Nobody is ignoring the harm. It's obvious. But that can be said about all the drugs, pharmaceuticals too. And alcohol, sugars and junk food has done a lot more damage than what some cigarettes or drugs could ever do. Even flavoured cigars are being banned. Why??? I don't want the government to play nanny state. That's why I want all drugs legalized, not just weed. More black families and several white families have been destroyed because of the failed war on drugs which has led to kids growing without fathers who are locked up in prison. "On average, African Americans initiate smoking at a later age compared to Whites." and "African Americans smoke fewer cigarettes per day": https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in... So most adult blacks are making conscious decisions themselves to start smoking when they are adults and not kids. And since 86% of blacks and 46% of hispanics prefer menthol cigarettes over regular ones, the adults enjoy that flavour. But this ban is patronizing them as if the adult blacks are too stupid to think for themselves, so the politicians must treat them as they treat kids and make the decisions to take away bad things from them. https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-components/menthol-and-other-flavors-tobacco-products https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-co... Instead of making changes so that youth can't get a hand on it, they are banning it because according to their own set standards, somehow adults of these communities are unable to think for themselves. This will end up locking more people of these communities in prison.
    - mholm 5y ago
      You're making some good points, but I think addiction, as a whole, subverts the ideal of 'think for themselves'. Your own CDC link states that 72.8% of African Americans want to quit. Addiction cessation programs might seem patronizing, but the vast majority of people can't do it alone. Even adults don't have access to all the information when they make a choice, especially those in lower income communities. If we had better publicly available addiction treatments, or improved the conditions that lead people to start smoking, then sure, legalize them. The current market doesn't reflect honest and fully informed consumer choice, and that's where I believe the state should come in. It's likely that we won't find a middle ground here.
      - busymom0 5y ago
        All of that can be applied to every single decision we make in life. Pretty much every human "want to quit" sugars, junk food, exercise more, eat healthy etc. It's definitely more than the % which wants to quit smoking. That doesn't mean we should government come in and ban sugars, junk food, force exercise and force people to eat salads. That's straight out of a Black Mirror episode where people are forced to do these things. > The current market doesn't reflect honest and fully informed consumer choice I don't think you are correct here at all. The tobacco industry and sales is very heavily regulated. They can't even have ads broadcast plus are hidden behind counter at stores. And as I presented in the CDC stats, vast majority of the blacks pick up smoking when they become adults and not kids. So they are already making "fully informed consumer choice". And a significantly small population actually smokes anyway. Junk food on the other hand which takes more lives, has more addiction and is consumed by kids doesn't have much regulation. There can be better steps which can be taken such as "those who don't smoke" get a tax rebate for example.
jrnichols 5y ago
the GOP does not have the House, Senate, or White House right now. Several of the states recently legalizing it have been GOP controlled states. The Dems have passed absolutely nothing to move legalization forward. Sorry, but this is squarely in Biden's hands now, and we have all seen how his track record on drug policy has been - a disappointment.
- raunak 5y ago
  It doesn’t matter if the GOP doesn’t control the House, Senate, or White House - if the reason legalization isn’t moving forward is because 50 GOP Senators vote no, and 1 Dem Senator votes no, it’s still squarely the GOP’s fault. If a legalization bill isn’t even ever going to move past the senate, it really doesn’t matter if the House/WH are Dem controlled. I fail to see how it’s squarely in Biden’s hands at this point, unless I’m sorely misunderstanding the US legislative process. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress-schumer-marijuana/2021/04/20/28bb7c4a-a1f8-11eb-a7ee-949c574a09ac_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress-schumer-mar...
  - rkuykendall-com 5y ago
    > 50 GOP Senators vote no, and 1 Dem Senator votes no, it’s still squarely the GOP’s fault Even worse, you can have 59 Dem & GOP Senators, but if a single GOP Senator objects, the bill is dead.

Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party.

by raunak 5y ago

Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party.

> Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party. Please do not get tribal flame wars started especially if you are objectively wrong based on direction of politics. Biden admin is the one which last month banned menthol cigarettes and flavoured tobacco - 86% of blacks and 46% of hispanics prefer menthol cigarettes. Opposite of which, several of the pardons issued by the previous admin were for non-violent drug related crimes thrown in prison for life thanks to the 90s crime bill written by Biden.

mholm 5y ago
It seems disingenuous to me to ignore the absolute harm that menthol cigarettes have done to communities over the past several decades, lump that in with marijuana, and act like they should be treated similarly. This change will likely save hundreds of thousands of lives in the United States[1]. Yes, small freedoms are being taken away. This violates the libertarian ideal. The 90's crime bill you cite is absolutely an issue, and the pardons were good. But sometimes objective freedom and making America better go in different directions, and not always on political lines. [1]: https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/tobaccocontrol-2020-056259 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/toba...
- busymom0 5y ago
  > But sometimes objective freedom and making America better go in different directions I don't see how thousands of people locked up for exercising their basic liberties is somehow "making America better". > It seems disingenuous to me to ignore the absolute harm that menthol cigarettes have done to communities over the past several decades Nobody is ignoring the harm. It's obvious. But that can be said about all the drugs, pharmaceuticals too. And alcohol, sugars and junk food has done a lot more damage than what some cigarettes or drugs could ever do. Even flavoured cigars are being banned. Why??? I don't want the government to play nanny state. That's why I want all drugs legalized, not just weed. More black families and several white families have been destroyed because of the failed war on drugs which has led to kids growing without fathers who are locked up in prison. "On average, African Americans initiate smoking at a later age compared to Whites." and "African Americans smoke fewer cigarettes per day": https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/disparities/african-americans/in... So most adult blacks are making conscious decisions themselves to start smoking when they are adults and not kids. And since 86% of blacks and 46% of hispanics prefer menthol cigarettes over regular ones, the adults enjoy that flavour. But this ban is patronizing them as if the adult blacks are too stupid to think for themselves, so the politicians must treat them as they treat kids and make the decisions to take away bad things from them. https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-components/menthol-and-other-flavors-tobacco-products https://www.fda.gov/tobacco-products/products-ingredients-co... Instead of making changes so that youth can't get a hand on it, they are banning it because according to their own set standards, somehow adults of these communities are unable to think for themselves. This will end up locking more people of these communities in prison.
  - mholm 5y ago
    You're making some good points, but I think addiction, as a whole, subverts the ideal of 'think for themselves'. Your own CDC link states that 72.8% of African Americans want to quit. Addiction cessation programs might seem patronizing, but the vast majority of people can't do it alone. Even adults don't have access to all the information when they make a choice, especially those in lower income communities. If we had better publicly available addiction treatments, or improved the conditions that lead people to start smoking, then sure, legalize them. The current market doesn't reflect honest and fully informed consumer choice, and that's where I believe the state should come in. It's likely that we won't find a middle ground here.
    - busymom0 5y ago
      All of that can be applied to every single decision we make in life. Pretty much every human "want to quit" sugars, junk food, exercise more, eat healthy etc. It's definitely more than the % which wants to quit smoking. That doesn't mean we should government come in and ban sugars, junk food, force exercise and force people to eat salads. That's straight out of a Black Mirror episode where people are forced to do these things. > The current market doesn't reflect honest and fully informed consumer choice I don't think you are correct here at all. The tobacco industry and sales is very heavily regulated. They can't even have ads broadcast plus are hidden behind counter at stores. And as I presented in the CDC stats, vast majority of the blacks pick up smoking when they become adults and not kids. So they are already making "fully informed consumer choice". And a significantly small population actually smokes anyway. Junk food on the other hand which takes more lives, has more addiction and is consumed by kids doesn't have much regulation. There can be better steps which can be taken such as "those who don't smoke" get a tax rebate for example.

jrnichols 5y ago

the GOP does not have the House, Senate, or White House right now. Several of the states recently legalizing it have been GOP controlled states. The Dems have passed absolutely nothing to move legalization forward. Sorry, but this is squarely in Biden's hands now, and we have all seen how his track record on drug policy has been - a disappointment.

raunak 5y ago
It doesn’t matter if the GOP doesn’t control the House, Senate, or White House - if the reason legalization isn’t moving forward is because 50 GOP Senators vote no, and 1 Dem Senator votes no, it’s still squarely the GOP’s fault. If a legalization bill isn’t even ever going to move past the senate, it really doesn’t matter if the House/WH are Dem controlled. I fail to see how it’s squarely in Biden’s hands at this point, unless I’m sorely misunderstanding the US legislative process. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress-schumer-marijuana/2021/04/20/28bb7c4a-a1f8-11eb-a7ee-949c574a09ac_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/congress-schumer-mar...
- rkuykendall-com 5y ago
  > 50 GOP Senators vote no, and 1 Dem Senator votes no, it’s still squarely the GOP’s fault Even worse, you can have 59 Dem & GOP Senators, but if a single GOP Senator objects, the bill is dead.