4 ms·

It's a pipe dream as long as cities are dependent on areas beyond their rail transit networks for labor. The infrastructure of every major city would need to b

It's a pipe dream as long as cities are dependent on areas beyond their rail transit networks for labor. The infrastructure of every major city would need to be re-worked to make it not a pipe dream. The kind of re-work it would need simply doesn't happen to existing development. There's too many stake holders and too much valuable existing construction would need to be gotten rid of. Cities in Europe still have the original street layouts of their medieval cores that were left mostly intact when trains and then cars came onto the scene. If something displaces cars it will likely result in new development, not re-work of old development.

aeternum 5y ago
Electric bikes could be the game-changer that makes this work. It used to be that most people were opposed to biking due to many issues: safety, arriving sweaty, difficulty riding up hills. Nowadays with the general easy availability of electric bikes in city bikeshare the main complaint is now safety around cars.
- jandrese 5y ago
  What about rain and snow?
  - jwalton 5y ago
    Rain is not as bad as you think it is. With a not-e-bike, I’m generally pretty warm from cycling, and a little cold rain is usually welcome. Fenders are required for a commuter bike if you want to bike in the rain, and you have to clean your bike more often if you bike in the rain often. Snow is suicidal, not because of your bike, it because of the drivers.
    - jandrese 5y ago
      The problem is that you then arrive at work soaking wet, so you have to change clothes and then store your wet stuff somewhere all day. Then change back into the wet stuff for the ride back (which might be in the rain again).
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > What about rain and snow? Goretex. I'm in Toronto, Canada and generally cycle (pre-pandemic) from March to December, rain or shine. I skip January and February mostly because of road conditions. Our urban winters aren't that bad, relatively speaking, so it's reasonable most days. I do have all the funny looking clothing, but that's mostly because I like to push things a bit to get some cardio. More leisurely pedalling would reduce sweating and probably not need a change. I shower first thing in the morning at home: it's not the sweat that gets stinky, it's the bacteria, so if you're reasonably clean it won't be a problem.
  - timbit42 5y ago
    Try a Better Bike PEDL.
- asah 5y ago
  Indeed! NYC has been revolutionized by ebikes and bike lanes: suddenly you can go quite far and it's not a big deal. Food deliveries can come from much further thanks to ebikes, and Amazon prime now/whole foods uses ebikes to haul substantial cargo: https://www.boweryboogie.com/content/uploads/2019/09/Whole-foods-bikes-2.jpg https://www.boweryboogie.com/content/uploads/2019/09/Whole-f...
- jwalton 5y ago
  I’m an avid cyclist, but here in Ottawa for half the year it’s -20C and the roads are treacherous. I’d be willing to cycle on the roads when it’s warmish in the winter, when it’s just below zero, but I’m unwilling to have someone who forgot to put winter tires on slide over me and my bike (and I’d need a sacrificial winter bike because the salt water from out streets would eat bikes alive).
  - estebank 5y ago
    > I’m unwilling to have someone who forgot to put winter tires on slide over me and my bike Part of the argument is that traffic should be segregated[1] and infrastructure for bikes should be well-kept year round, regardless of local conditions[2]. If a car can slide in snow and run you over, a distracted driver can do that on ideal conditions as well. If the roads are not in a ridable condition, that means that bike infrastructure is not being prioritized, usually because it is not considered a valid commuting mechanism. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMJaMy-0ChA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMJaMy-0ChA [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > I’m an avid cyclist, but here in Ottawa for half the year it’s -20C and the roads are treacherous. The Not Just Bikes channel, produced by an ex-pat Canadian, has a video asking why can't people in Canada cycle in the winter if the folks in Finland can? > When talking about bicycle infrastructure in Canada, the number one excuse I hear is "winter." Many Canadians see the cold and snow as a fundamental barrier to year round cycling. But one city, Oulu in Finland, with winter weather worse than most Canadian cities, shows that winter cycling has nothing to do with the weather, and everything to do with safe cycling infrastructure. […] * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
  - jamincan 5y ago
    If cities actually make efforts to accommodate cyclists in winter, it actually ends up being quite practical and the temperature isn't really an issue. Montreal is an example of a city that has made efforts to do just that and has seen a huge increase in winter cycling. The reality right now for most cities in Canada is that the cyclist is relegated to making their way through slush and snow filling the bike line while cars zoom pass spraying them with more slush - of course, people don't ride their bike in those conditions.
Dylan16807 5y ago
> It's a pipe dream as long as cities are dependent on areas beyond their rail transit networks for labor. You can set up parking at the edge of the transit network and have people drive to there. And transit can use busses too.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
guerrilla 5y ago
People could just drive to exterior subways or bus stations...
Arnt 5y ago
I live in one of those cities; a street I biked along yesterday was a village path four hundred years ago. Last Friday, a politician here said that in her opinion, most cars will be banned from the central area in about six years. UPS vans will drive anywhere, taxis will too, plumbers will, you won't. UPS, taxis and plumbers are necessary, justified, you're just loud. Her predictions have been good before. The set of necessary cars is a small subset of cars. Plumbers need to have a van full of spare parts, but that justifies letting them drive, it doesn't justify letting everyone drive everywhere.
- klipklop 5y ago
  >it doesn't justify letting everyone drive everywhere. Where do you draw the line? Who "deserves" the freedom of free movement and who does not? Assuming the near-future cars are quiet and tailpipe emission-free EV's, why would you care who does/does not drive? If you like to walk, walk. If you need to drive, drive. Why try to force everyone into the lifestyle you think is best? Not letting "everyone drive everywhere" is a scary future that I would not like to live in. If I have the means and wish to drive, I will.
  - Arnt 5y ago
    That is indeed a question, and I observe that the democratic process that decides it is a bit skewed, at least from some people's points of view. AFAICT, a fair summary is that almost everyone wants restrictive rules where they live, but some/many also want permissive rules in other places (to which they can then drive). The suburban voters who want to drive in the inner city are quick to complain if one of the navigation systems starts recommending a shortcut through residential streets in their suburb. Since voting happens according to where one lives, the suburban voters have next to no say in inner-city matters. This may be seen as fair or unfair. Unfair, because it means that the most car-unfriendly voters tend to set the rules where it matters most, while the most car-friendly voters don't matter much. Fair, because it depresses the number of cars in the noisiest areas, somewhat equalising the noise/traffic people have to suffer where they live.
  - Steltek 5y ago

aeternum 5y ago

Electric bikes could be the game-changer that makes this work. It used to be that most people were opposed to biking due to many issues: safety, arriving sweaty, difficulty riding up hills. Nowadays with the general easy availability of electric bikes in city bikeshare the main complaint is now safety around cars.

jandrese 5y ago
What about rain and snow?
- jwalton 5y ago
  Rain is not as bad as you think it is. With a not-e-bike, I’m generally pretty warm from cycling, and a little cold rain is usually welcome. Fenders are required for a commuter bike if you want to bike in the rain, and you have to clean your bike more often if you bike in the rain often. Snow is suicidal, not because of your bike, it because of the drivers.
  - jandrese 5y ago
    The problem is that you then arrive at work soaking wet, so you have to change clothes and then store your wet stuff somewhere all day. Then change back into the wet stuff for the ride back (which might be in the rain again).
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > What about rain and snow? Goretex. I'm in Toronto, Canada and generally cycle (pre-pandemic) from March to December, rain or shine. I skip January and February mostly because of road conditions. Our urban winters aren't that bad, relatively speaking, so it's reasonable most days. I do have all the funny looking clothing, but that's mostly because I like to push things a bit to get some cardio. More leisurely pedalling would reduce sweating and probably not need a change. I shower first thing in the morning at home: it's not the sweat that gets stinky, it's the bacteria, so if you're reasonably clean it won't be a problem.
- timbit42 5y ago
  Try a Better Bike PEDL.
asah 5y ago
Indeed! NYC has been revolutionized by ebikes and bike lanes: suddenly you can go quite far and it's not a big deal. Food deliveries can come from much further thanks to ebikes, and Amazon prime now/whole foods uses ebikes to haul substantial cargo: https://www.boweryboogie.com/content/uploads/2019/09/Whole-foods-bikes-2.jpg https://www.boweryboogie.com/content/uploads/2019/09/Whole-f...
jwalton 5y ago
I’m an avid cyclist, but here in Ottawa for half the year it’s -20C and the roads are treacherous. I’d be willing to cycle on the roads when it’s warmish in the winter, when it’s just below zero, but I’m unwilling to have someone who forgot to put winter tires on slide over me and my bike (and I’d need a sacrificial winter bike because the salt water from out streets would eat bikes alive).
- estebank 5y ago
  > I’m unwilling to have someone who forgot to put winter tires on slide over me and my bike Part of the argument is that traffic should be segregated[1] and infrastructure for bikes should be well-kept year round, regardless of local conditions[2]. If a car can slide in snow and run you over, a distracted driver can do that on ideal conditions as well. If the roads are not in a ridable condition, that means that bike infrastructure is not being prioritized, usually because it is not considered a valid commuting mechanism. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMJaMy-0ChA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMJaMy-0ChA [2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > I’m an avid cyclist, but here in Ottawa for half the year it’s -20C and the roads are treacherous. The Not Just Bikes channel, produced by an ex-pat Canadian, has a video asking why can't people in Canada cycle in the winter if the folks in Finland can? > When talking about bicycle infrastructure in Canada, the number one excuse I hear is "winter." Many Canadians see the cold and snow as a fundamental barrier to year round cycling. But one city, Oulu in Finland, with winter weather worse than most Canadian cities, shows that winter cycling has nothing to do with the weather, and everything to do with safe cycling infrastructure. […] * https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uhx-26GfCBU
- jamincan 5y ago
  If cities actually make efforts to accommodate cyclists in winter, it actually ends up being quite practical and the temperature isn't really an issue. Montreal is an example of a city that has made efforts to do just that and has seen a huge increase in winter cycling. The reality right now for most cities in Canada is that the cyclist is relegated to making their way through slush and snow filling the bike line while cars zoom pass spraying them with more slush - of course, people don't ride their bike in those conditions.

Dylan16807 5y ago

> It's a pipe dream as long as cities are dependent on areas beyond their rail transit networks for labor. You can set up parking at the edge of the transit network and have people drive to there. And transit can use busses too.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

guerrilla 5y ago

People could just drive to exterior subways or bus stations...

Arnt 5y ago

I live in one of those cities; a street I biked along yesterday was a village path four hundred years ago. Last Friday, a politician here said that in her opinion, most cars will be banned from the central area in about six years. UPS vans will drive anywhere, taxis will too, plumbers will, you won't. UPS, taxis and plumbers are necessary, justified, you're just loud. Her predictions have been good before. The set of necessary cars is a small subset of cars. Plumbers need to have a van full of spare parts, but that justifies letting them drive, it doesn't justify letting everyone drive everywhere.

klipklop 5y ago
>it doesn't justify letting everyone drive everywhere. Where do you draw the line? Who "deserves" the freedom of free movement and who does not? Assuming the near-future cars are quiet and tailpipe emission-free EV's, why would you care who does/does not drive? If you like to walk, walk. If you need to drive, drive. Why try to force everyone into the lifestyle you think is best? Not letting "everyone drive everywhere" is a scary future that I would not like to live in. If I have the means and wish to drive, I will.
- Arnt 5y ago
  That is indeed a question, and I observe that the democratic process that decides it is a bit skewed, at least from some people's points of view. AFAICT, a fair summary is that almost everyone wants restrictive rules where they live, but some/many also want permissive rules in other places (to which they can then drive). The suburban voters who want to drive in the inner city are quick to complain if one of the navigation systems starts recommending a shortcut through residential streets in their suburb. Since voting happens according to where one lives, the suburban voters have next to no say in inner-city matters. This may be seen as fair or unfair. Unfair, because it means that the most car-unfriendly voters tend to set the rules where it matters most, while the most car-friendly voters don't matter much. Fair, because it depresses the number of cars in the noisiest areas, somewhat equalising the noise/traffic people have to suffer where they live.
- Steltek 5y ago