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I was fired by an algorithm in early 2019 when working for Amazon Flex. Basically, on the app, "blocks" would appear, which would be a set $ amount for approxim

I was fired by an algorithm in early 2019 when working for Amazon Flex. Basically, on the app, "blocks" would appear, which would be a set $ amount for approximate X number of deliveries to X location. Then you would drive to a "fulfillment" center to pick up your boxes. You had to be quick to grab a block before someone else did. Occasionally I would drop a block and grab a higher-yielding one. It wasn't clear to me that this was frowned upon by the app. After a few weeks of this work, I was "deactivated" without any warning. I called their customer "service" line and was told that I was deactivated in their system and there was no recourse for me. That really sucked.

zouhair 5y ago
This reads like from some dystopian sci-fi book.
- kache_ 5y ago
  You're in one
- the_lonely_road 5y ago
  It’s better to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. But what happens when there is no one to ask for forgiveness from?
- fumar 5y ago
  Don’t you ever think – “what would the world be like if the bad guys won?” Who said they didn’t? It is all in the eye of the beholder. If we apply some ethics like the golden rule to modern existence, then you spend your time debating where to apply it because it’s near impossible.
  - excalibur 5y ago
    Yet still preferable to the alternative
    - SQueeeeeL 5y ago
      I guess we could literally be shot as soon as you leave the womb, so I guess you're right
    - hanniabu 5y ago
      I'll bite, what's the alternative?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - moosey 5y ago
      At a minimum, this is a false dichotomy. Stopping for a moment to think creatively, there are many alternatives. Many of those alternatives would probably serve human welfare better than what we have today. Living in the country that produces and exports the most weapons, and that also extracts the most hydrocarbons, I came to believe that I lived a superior life via effective propaganda. Now I come to see that these actions are not only against my values, but that they also cause great harm. There must be superior alternatives.
      - asteroidbelt 5y ago
        The only superior alternative is robots and UBI. And it is inevitable. Deliveries can be done by wheeled drones, and drones are cheaper.
      - selestify 5y ago
        I’m really curious, as another citizen of that country, how does the exports of weapons to foreign places cause us personal harm?
  - egypturnash 5y ago
    I have been reading SF for most of my entire life and I am not sure I can think of a single book that presented "de facto rule by extremely powerful corporations" as a good thing. They're pretty much always villains when they show up.
    - fumar 5y ago
      By the time I've eaten lunch, I've been exposed to propaganda from every media portal in a fairly relentless manner both in the form of advertising and manufactured messages disguised as news. That may include comments created by algorithms and posted by bots impersonating persons. I can't deny that existence increasingly feels inauthentic by design and that alone creates subtle anxiety every day. Add in the constant high-attention grabbing headlines, images, or videos – are those the cause of my escapist dreams? Like you, science fiction has been a cornerstone of my life since early childhood. For the longest time, I believed our digital selves we're capable of being functional alter egos in a new digital medium separated from physical existence, but that is not what happened. Instead, our real selves and the digital world have merged and in many ways they are inseparable. The pitfalls of this intertwined world are all too visible as society finds itself in drastic divides ranging from political views to music tastes. This coming from someone who believed positive technology advancements would outweigh the negatives, but I can only see the downsides lately. I think I lost the plot and it is all too blurry now. Maybe I need a vacation.
- pasquinelli 5y ago
  to me it sounds idiotic. i guess if you consider idiocracy a dystopia. "the computer did the auto-layoff thing and now we don't have any money!"
  - thatguy0900 5y ago
    Amazon has plenty of money though? Their bet is that no matter how badly they treat their workers, there will be more. They seem to be right. Worse case they have to start treating them well now and still saved all that money in the past. Hardly idiocracy.
    - pasquinelli 5y ago
      brawno made a lot of money too
    - pasquinelli 5y ago
      oh, i just realized that maybe you don't know i'm referring to the movie "idiocracy".
      - thatguy0900 5y ago
        Oh, I knew the reference,I just had you confused.I thought you meant Amazon was the idiot running out of money in this situation, but I think now you meant the workers working for them are? That makes more sense.
    - akudha 5y ago
      The only question was how much poo we wanted there to be. Though gross, That one sentence should tell us their entire line of thinking. Absolutely nothing will happen to them and they know it. Mistreat one guy, there are 10 others to take his place. There is zero incentive to treat people well. Unionizing would help, but that doesn’t seem to be happening either
- ihsw 5y ago
  Amazon gets a free pass because they posted "BLM" and "Pride" on their Twitter page and they hire ~~party secretaries~~ diversity officers. Pay your tithe pleb.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  This is the reality for anyone working in an app-based marketplace. The workers are the product, and they're treated like a product.
- tmm84 5y ago
  More like the scene from Maximum Overdrive where the trucks come to the fuel station and demand to be filled with fuel.
kobalsky 5y ago
The gig economy industry has managed to steal back decades worth of workers rights, and the worst thing is that this will take decades to undo. Almost everyone has been groomed to defend these corporate behemots' rights to stomp on our lives like if they were defending the right of a small mom and pop shop to kick out a rowdy drunkard. When a company has a bigger revenue than most contries' gdp they shouldn't play by the same rules, they need to be held to a different set of standards.
- sneak 5y ago
  > The gig economy industry has managed to steal back decades worth of workers rights If workers didn't think these jobs were better options than whatever existed before, they'd still be working jobs other than these. People opted in to this.
  - alksjdalkj 5y ago
    Workers were convinced that the jobs are better based on advertising from these companies. That doesn't mean the jobs actually are better options.
    - asteroidbelt 5y ago
      If workers are that dumb to get such jobs and stay on it forever instead of returning back, maybe it’s right jobs for them. I think better of working class people though.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    The jobs aren't outcomes of nature. The legal and regulatory landscape creates a situation where these are the best jobs available. Those laws and the regulators may be strongly influenced by deep-pocketed employers such as Amazon.
  - cafard 5y ago
    That, or maybe a bunch of better jobs went away.
- 5y ago
frereubu 5y ago
This makes me think of the part of the GDPR that deals with automated decision making: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/automated-decision-making-and-profiling/what-does-the-uk-gdpr-say-about-automated-decision-making-and-profiling/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio... "The UK GDPR gives people the right not to be subject to solely automated decisions, including profiling, which have a legal or similarly significant effect on them." I guess that would probably be buried in an employment contract at Amazon, but it might form the basis for a court case if it wasn't actually spelt out. Just because a human has designed the algorithm doesn't make it non-automated: "A process might still be considered solely automated if a human inputs the data to be processed, and then the decision-making is carried out by an automated system. A process won’t be considered solely automated if someone weighs up and interprets the result of an automated decision before applying it to the individual."
- sebasvisser 5y ago
  Even of spelt out in the contract, laws trump contracts. Just a matter of having the patience, and money, to fight the court battle…
  - frereubu 5y ago
    Yeah, for sure. But if GP was fired like this then a bet a bunch of people were, and if they were in the EU they might be able to make it a class action.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Just because a human has designed the algorithm doesn't make it non-automated: "A process might still be considered solely automated if a human inputs the data to be processed, and then the decision-making is carried out by an automated system. A process won’t be considered solely automated if someone weighs up and interprets the result of an automated decision before applying it to the individual." Lawyers have a tendency to create employment for other lawyer-type professions it seems.
bluegroper 5y ago
I was working in early 2019 as well. I used a program to grab blocks quickly instead of just looking at the screen for hours to wait for a block. I did receive an email warning but did not get fired. I also spoofed location so I can tell the app I am at the warehouse on time even if I was late.
- TylerE 5y ago
  > I also spoofed location so I can tell the app I am at the warehouse on time even if I was late. This is called fraud. It isn't legal.
  - bobthebuilders 5y ago
    By using a fraud retransmitter algorithim, you can spoof the system to retrofit the app and hyperconverge onto an optimal, legal solution.
swiley 5y ago
People say you miss out on things by not owning a smartphone but I think it's becoming increasingly clear that you really don't.
npteljes 5y ago
I think this is horrible treatment. For one, it was not transparent as to what's happening. For two, the termination was instant with no recourse. I don't think human vs automation is the question here. This would not look better if a human boss would evaluate you, and just say in one morning that you're fired, so don't come in. Like in the Back to the Future movie.

zouhair 5y ago

This reads like from some dystopian sci-fi book.

kache_ 5y ago
You're in one
the_lonely_road 5y ago
It’s better to ask for forgiveness than it is to ask for permission. But what happens when there is no one to ask for forgiveness from?
fumar 5y ago
Don’t you ever think – “what would the world be like if the bad guys won?” Who said they didn’t? It is all in the eye of the beholder. If we apply some ethics like the golden rule to modern existence, then you spend your time debating where to apply it because it’s near impossible.
- excalibur 5y ago
  Yet still preferable to the alternative
  - SQueeeeeL 5y ago
    I guess we could literally be shot as soon as you leave the womb, so I guess you're right
  - hanniabu 5y ago
    I'll bite, what's the alternative?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - moosey 5y ago
    At a minimum, this is a false dichotomy. Stopping for a moment to think creatively, there are many alternatives. Many of those alternatives would probably serve human welfare better than what we have today. Living in the country that produces and exports the most weapons, and that also extracts the most hydrocarbons, I came to believe that I lived a superior life via effective propaganda. Now I come to see that these actions are not only against my values, but that they also cause great harm. There must be superior alternatives.
    - asteroidbelt 5y ago
      The only superior alternative is robots and UBI. And it is inevitable. Deliveries can be done by wheeled drones, and drones are cheaper.
    - selestify 5y ago
      I’m really curious, as another citizen of that country, how does the exports of weapons to foreign places cause us personal harm?
- egypturnash 5y ago
  I have been reading SF for most of my entire life and I am not sure I can think of a single book that presented "de facto rule by extremely powerful corporations" as a good thing. They're pretty much always villains when they show up.
  - fumar 5y ago
    By the time I've eaten lunch, I've been exposed to propaganda from every media portal in a fairly relentless manner both in the form of advertising and manufactured messages disguised as news. That may include comments created by algorithms and posted by bots impersonating persons. I can't deny that existence increasingly feels inauthentic by design and that alone creates subtle anxiety every day. Add in the constant high-attention grabbing headlines, images, or videos – are those the cause of my escapist dreams? Like you, science fiction has been a cornerstone of my life since early childhood. For the longest time, I believed our digital selves we're capable of being functional alter egos in a new digital medium separated from physical existence, but that is not what happened. Instead, our real selves and the digital world have merged and in many ways they are inseparable. The pitfalls of this intertwined world are all too visible as society finds itself in drastic divides ranging from political views to music tastes. This coming from someone who believed positive technology advancements would outweigh the negatives, but I can only see the downsides lately. I think I lost the plot and it is all too blurry now. Maybe I need a vacation.
pasquinelli 5y ago
to me it sounds idiotic. i guess if you consider idiocracy a dystopia. "the computer did the auto-layoff thing and now we don't have any money!"
- thatguy0900 5y ago
  Amazon has plenty of money though? Their bet is that no matter how badly they treat their workers, there will be more. They seem to be right. Worse case they have to start treating them well now and still saved all that money in the past. Hardly idiocracy.
  - pasquinelli 5y ago
    brawno made a lot of money too
  - pasquinelli 5y ago
    oh, i just realized that maybe you don't know i'm referring to the movie "idiocracy".
    - thatguy0900 5y ago
      Oh, I knew the reference,I just had you confused.I thought you meant Amazon was the idiot running out of money in this situation, but I think now you meant the workers working for them are? That makes more sense.
  - akudha 5y ago
    The only question was how much poo we wanted there to be. Though gross, That one sentence should tell us their entire line of thinking. Absolutely nothing will happen to them and they know it. Mistreat one guy, there are 10 others to take his place. There is zero incentive to treat people well. Unionizing would help, but that doesn’t seem to be happening either
ihsw 5y ago
Amazon gets a free pass because they posted "BLM" and "Pride" on their Twitter page and they hire ~~party secretaries~~ diversity officers. Pay your tithe pleb.
heavyset_go 5y ago
This is the reality for anyone working in an app-based marketplace. The workers are the product, and they're treated like a product.
tmm84 5y ago
More like the scene from Maximum Overdrive where the trucks come to the fuel station and demand to be filled with fuel.

kobalsky 5y ago

The gig economy industry has managed to steal back decades worth of workers rights, and the worst thing is that this will take decades to undo. Almost everyone has been groomed to defend these corporate behemots' rights to stomp on our lives like if they were defending the right of a small mom and pop shop to kick out a rowdy drunkard. When a company has a bigger revenue than most contries' gdp they shouldn't play by the same rules, they need to be held to a different set of standards.

sneak 5y ago
> The gig economy industry has managed to steal back decades worth of workers rights If workers didn't think these jobs were better options than whatever existed before, they'd still be working jobs other than these. People opted in to this.
- alksjdalkj 5y ago
  Workers were convinced that the jobs are better based on advertising from these companies. That doesn't mean the jobs actually are better options.
  - asteroidbelt 5y ago
    If workers are that dumb to get such jobs and stay on it forever instead of returning back, maybe it’s right jobs for them. I think better of working class people though.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  The jobs aren't outcomes of nature. The legal and regulatory landscape creates a situation where these are the best jobs available. Those laws and the regulators may be strongly influenced by deep-pocketed employers such as Amazon.
- cafard 5y ago
  That, or maybe a bunch of better jobs went away.
5y ago

frereubu 5y ago

This makes me think of the part of the GDPR that deals with automated decision making: https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/automated-decision-making-and-profiling/what-does-the-uk-gdpr-say-about-automated-decision-making-and-profiling/ https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protectio... "The UK GDPR gives people the right not to be subject to solely automated decisions, including profiling, which have a legal or similarly significant effect on them." I guess that would probably be buried in an employment contract at Amazon, but it might form the basis for a court case if it wasn't actually spelt out. Just because a human has designed the algorithm doesn't make it non-automated: "A process might still be considered solely automated if a human inputs the data to be processed, and then the decision-making is carried out by an automated system. A process won’t be considered solely automated if someone weighs up and interprets the result of an automated decision before applying it to the individual."

sebasvisser 5y ago
Even of spelt out in the contract, laws trump contracts. Just a matter of having the patience, and money, to fight the court battle…
- frereubu 5y ago
  Yeah, for sure. But if GP was fired like this then a bet a bunch of people were, and if they were in the EU they might be able to make it a class action.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Just because a human has designed the algorithm doesn't make it non-automated: "A process might still be considered solely automated if a human inputs the data to be processed, and then the decision-making is carried out by an automated system. A process won’t be considered solely automated if someone weighs up and interprets the result of an automated decision before applying it to the individual." Lawyers have a tendency to create employment for other lawyer-type professions it seems.

bluegroper 5y ago

I was working in early 2019 as well. I used a program to grab blocks quickly instead of just looking at the screen for hours to wait for a block. I did receive an email warning but did not get fired. I also spoofed location so I can tell the app I am at the warehouse on time even if I was late.

TylerE 5y ago
> I also spoofed location so I can tell the app I am at the warehouse on time even if I was late. This is called fraud. It isn't legal.
- bobthebuilders 5y ago
  By using a fraud retransmitter algorithim, you can spoof the system to retrofit the app and hyperconverge onto an optimal, legal solution.

swiley 5y ago

People say you miss out on things by not owning a smartphone but I think it's becoming increasingly clear that you really don't.

npteljes 5y ago

I think this is horrible treatment. For one, it was not transparent as to what's happening. For two, the termination was instant with no recourse. I don't think human vs automation is the question here. This would not look better if a human boss would evaluate you, and just say in one morning that you're fired, so don't come in. Like in the Back to the Future movie.