7 ms·

The Reign of Introverts Is Here

51 points by bhalina 5y ago

marcinzm 5y ago
I don't see remote work necessarily helping introverts since communication and online social connection is even more important when it doesn't happen by simply being in the same physical space. There is also even less social context to draw upon which is a problem for people who struggle in understanding social nuance. Introverts can very easily not make the extra effort to stay connected with co-workers which will put them at a disadvantage in terms of promotions and so on. I can see it helping those who have things like social anxiety with in person communication but that's very different from being an introvert.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  > There is also even less social context to draw upon which is a problem for people who struggle in understanding social nuance. I find that very beneficial though as people know that written situations lack context (so they add more info) and are more accepting of misinterpretations (so there is a lower penalty).
  - vladvasiliu 5y ago
    I don't agree with this. I oftentimes see colleagues from "distant" teams who have a tendency to use their own, opaque acronyms even when they specifically look for me to help them with something. My first response is always, basically, "what's XYZ?". I think people have a tendency to assume that their context is shared by the other people. Also, on a wider level, I think that the infamous "twitter wars" are due to people taking short sentences out of context. Of course, this is likely not the only reason, but it's probably a contributor.
  - wccrawford 5y ago
    My experience in the past has been the opposite. People who communicated face to face were less likely to scream at each other than people who communicated by text. Video helps with that in remote work, but it's still not everything, and introverts tend to shy away from that as well. During Covid, I think a lot of people are also feeling stressed in weird new ways, and so there's a lot of empathy for whatever people are going through right now. Without it, I think tempers would flare quicker.
ve55 5y ago
While there is definitely a real notable shift to be described here, I wouldn't want to go as far as saying that being an introvert is a true advantage over being an extrovert now (similarly, I wouldn't describe people like Bezos and Zuckerberg as 'quiet' - they are definitely spending their days communicating with a lot more people than I do, rather than programming alone in their bedrooms. Sure they're not taking interviews from journalists all day, but why would they?). I make this comment because the largest mistake I made in my adolescence was continually being too quiet, which later on I realized made just about any goal I had harder on myself, whether it was basic networking, meeting potential co-founders, customers, partners, or whatever it may be. It took me many years to realize how to be extroverted in a much more effective way, and even longer to become comfortable with things like cold-emailing people to ask for things. The skills and mindset of an introvert may be more valuable now, but knowing when you should put on your extrovert hat is still one of the highest ROI skills that one can learn (and also can be pretty difficult for many introverted mindsets to become comfortable with).
tyingq 5y ago
I wonder how much other traits and attributes that previously had high benefit have fallen off due to the increased amount of remote work. For example, there is some correlation with being tall and being successful. Probably similar for attractiveness things that don't show up in a video of just your face.
claudiulodro 5y ago
> High-paying careers favor those with the stomach for deep, solitary work. Where can I get some of this high-paid, deep, solitary work? These days software engineering is ultra-collaborative, and I doubt anybody would say that doctors/nurses, managers, finance people, or lawyers are doing deep, solitary work.
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  Deep, Solitary work does not mean non-collaborative. You can, without talking to a single human being, complete design reviews, claim and fix 1000s of bugs, review PRs, update and ship documentation or releases, etc etc. Deep Solitary just means "asynchronous", "uninterrupted", and "self-scheduled" in this context.
  - thebackup 5y ago
    Where can I get some of this high paid, asynchronous, uninterrupted, and self-scheduled work?
  - pxue 5y ago
    No it doesn’t. Reviewing other people’s PR is a collaborative task, fixing bugs "reported by others" is a collaborative work, updating docs and release notes for "other" stakeholder's consumption is collaborative work. Unless you're building a house deep in the woods for you by you, you're collaborating with other people on different levels. Let's be honest, introversion is a gradient scale, maybe we've shifted a bit more towards cutting out the office Watercooler talks but everything we do as a species is still highly collaborative.
    - jvanderbot 5y ago
      Exactly, those are obviously "collaborative" things that can happen by people working alone and without every seeing or talking to another person. The definition of collaborative that includes "In person" is just wrong.
- arcturus17 5y ago
Graffur 5y ago
One thing I have noticed when WFH is that random calls are more disruptive than someone calling to your desk. When someone calls to your desk you're already in that environment. When someone calls you when WFH they're entering your environment - if that makes sense. I also notice that status update meetings seem to be more common.
- TheDudeMan 5y ago
  You can choose to not answer (not always, but sometimes).
  - teddyh 5y ago
    “Meyerhof was about to pass on down the list when the summons came. It wasn’t really a summons. No one could summon a Grand Master. It was only a message that Division Head Trask would like very much to see Grand Master Meyerhof if Grand Master Meyerhof could spare him the time. Meyerhof might, with impunity, have tossed the message to one side and continued with whatever he was doing. He was not subject to discipline. On the other hand, were he to do that, they would continue to bother him—oh, very respectfully, but they would continue to bother him.” — Jokester, Isaac Asimov, 1956 <https://archive.org/details/Infinity_v01n06_1956-12_LennyS-cape1736/page/n39/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/Infinity_v01n06_1956-12_LennyS-c...>
  - Graffur 5y ago
    True, and I do if its an unprompted call with no obvious reason.
- silicon2401 5y ago
  I disagree. I hate being at the office and at the mercy of whoever wants to walk by and talk to me. Even if I have an excuse for not talking, I'm still disrupted. At home, all interactions are filtered through my laptop, which is more predictable and manageable.
marcosscriven 5y ago
Sign in… no.
arcturus17 5y ago
> Expect the balance of wealth and power to shift accordingly Haha, no, absolutely not. Power and wealth will still be accumulated primarily through persuading and influencing others. Good luck accumulating significant capital without that!
- jvanderbot 5y ago
  I hope we understand that influencing others can happen without meeting them in a room on their schedule? If we do, then perhaps the general zeitgeist will evolve to recognize the superpower therein?
  - arcturus17 5y ago
    > I hope we understand that influencing others can happen without meeting them in a room on their schedule OK, but this marginally favors introverts, if at all. People will still need to be aggressive in building relationships and influencing them. Does this sound to you like something introverts would enjoy, even if they're able to do it on Zoom?
    - marcinzm 5y ago
      Me and some other introverts I know actually find Zoom calls more draining than in person conversations. Not sure why.
      - arcturus17 5y ago
        I'm not sure I'm an introvert, I think I live in a broad range between the two poles, but I definitely notice that sometimes too.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - toyg 5y ago
    In that case, it might favour "people who can type fast", not "introverts".
unethical_ban 5y ago
I'd be more receptive to the discussion if they didn't seem to be so "rub it in your face" about it. I have gotten the feeling that introverts (especially those who write about it on blogs) have a chip on their shoulder about silly things like "needing to communicate clearly" or "having to interact with other human beings". If you want to be successful, you need to know how to communicate clearly, and you need to be diplomatic and know how to affect the outcome you're looking to. "How to win friends and influence people" is still a good book to read on the subject. And what the hell is that "dating app" section, as if "witty one liners on an app" is somehow a contrast, or even a good thing, compared to meeting people at a bar or social event? The whole article is whack. As someone who has historically been an extrovert but has become more introverted in the past two years, I feel like I have gotten a handicap - I feel I have lost skills that I need to regain. I also think the WFH revolution (and the glee with which it is embraced) is a pendulum on the far end of positive, which I think will swing back a bit when people realize all the dreams of WFH don't materialize. Many people won't become nomadic. Many people won't move to that low-cost midwest city, save hundreds of thousands and FIRE at 45. All the things people are taking for granted now, like having an existing network of work contacts from the pre-covid days) will evaporate, and they'll be left trying to replicate what they took for granted, from home.
Clubber 5y ago
I think the author is making a lot of assumptions here. I'll break them down. > High-paying careers favor those with the stomach for deep, solitary work. I assume he means programming. Just because you work in a solitary environment doesn't mean you're an introvert. It really more requires the ability to focus more than anything in my experience. I've known a bunch of great programmers who were also extroverts. > In-person schmoozing has taken a backseat to an online workday where the ability to self-motivate matters most. I don't think this has changed because promotion is based largely on human bias more than anything. Making an impression on someone is still as important as it ever was, we just do it using a different medium. (zoom, teams, slack, email). > Crafting a witty one-liner on apps determines your dating success — not the ability to pick someone up at a bar. It might get you a date, but your personality gets you the second date.
abvdasker 5y ago
I've always felt that the introvert/extrovert dichotomy is such an oversimplification that it fails to be useful as a form of categorization. The degree to which someone is outgoing vs reserved is highly context dependent: maybe an individual is extraverted in their personal life but more restrained in a professional environment. Measuring these things is also so subjective that much of this is just a wash. Pieces of business-pop psychology like this one seem mostly designed to tell their audience wants to hear with just enough of an edge to provoke engagement.
- fallat 5y ago
  This is how I feel about most categorizations. I did some research the other night about problems with categorization, but surprisingly couldn't find much. While categorization is good for quick communication, it usually abstracts too much. Rather than category, we should see things as types? Maybe this is one in the same?
- vidarh 5y ago
  Being introvert vs extrovert is not about how one acts in social situations but whether one finds social situations draining or giving energy. For some introverts that translates into avoiding social activity, but that is by no means a given. I like many social situations and can be outgoing and animated in the right context, but no matter how much I might enjoy that, it is still exhausting to me, and that is what makes me introverted. I need solitude to recharge.
  - didibus 5y ago
    In this classification, it begs the question, do extroverts feel drained and demotivated when not in social contexts?
    - gwoplock 5y ago
      I think that's generally the idea. Extroverts drain their "battery" in isolation and recharge in social settings.
yuy910616 5y ago
Good idea and poorly written. This low-brow content should really be posted on Reddit and not HN: 1. Definition of Introvert is wrong: introvert can be gregarious, loud, and fun at parties. Introvert vs extrovert is more determined by where you get your energy from. 2. Mostly copies idea from this article [1] [1] https://marker.medium.com/context-sensitivity-and-the-introvert-experience-a73002d3ca84 https://marker.medium.com/context-sensitivity-and-the-introv...
- prionassembly 5y ago
  I'd argue that bad content shouldn't be posted anywhere.
- choxi 5y ago
  Is there any good research to support "introvert vs extrovert is more determined by where you get your energy from" or is it just one of those folk wisdoms like power posing and ego depletion?
  - yuy910616 5y ago
    I'm not sure actually, it was taught at my college's psy 101 class
paulpauper 5y ago
It is not so much about intorversion vs. extorverson but rather IQ. Similar the 2008 financial crisis, the biggest losers of the Covid crisis and its recovery are the untalented, whose jobs are pay little and are replaceable and interchangeable like cogs. And the biggest winners, similar again to the post-2008 recovery, are the talented, whose wages exceed inflation and whose contributions are valued and are harder to replace. Yet I have heard about plenty of people in major tech cmpanies like google and apple feeling like they are in a rut despite the good pay. So if you measure satisfaction by just money you miss out on other factors. It's not like a tech job guantees a path to deep and fulfilling work.
- AnotherTechie 5y ago
  IQ and pay are not related
  - sz4kerto 5y ago
    They're correlated. The correlation is not 1, of course, but definitely positive. (Won't provide references -- there's plenty on the internet.) People in the bottom 30 percentile earn way less than people in the top 30.
    - paulpauper 5y ago
      I dunno why this is such a hard concept for people to understand Imagine you want to earn money and thus you need learn a skill. Which would earn you more money: learning to code or learning to stock shelves.
      - username90 5y ago
        Those people would argue that learning to code has nothing to do with IQ.
      - gwoplock 5y ago
        > Imagine you want to earn money and thus you need learn a skill. Which would earn you more money: learning to code or learning to weld? Highly skilled work is highly paid work.
AnotherTechie 5y ago
Introvert vs. Extrovert isn't really backed by anything. Perhaps an equally meaningful title would be "the reign of gemini is here" and we could all enjoy that cosmopolitan article together :')
aviraldg 5y ago
One of the changes due to WFH that I'm happiest about is how all meetings are now online, which makes my inability* to find the right time to take a turn speaking in a conversation less of a problem (since it's possible to "raise a hand" in most online meeting apps, or just drop a message in chat.) Better still, most meetings can be converted to emails, so this situation doesn't arise in the first place. I don't think most people realise how much anxiety this kind of stuff causes "introverts". * Also shared by most people with ADHD.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  I also like that I can effectively opt out of the meeting just by moving my real work to my forward facing monitor and putting the meeting on the side.
11thEarlOfMar 5y ago
Companies cannot grow and be successful without a wide variety of roles. And different roles tend to attract different personality types. The personality type for sales and the personality type for accounting are likely to have much less overlap than the personality types for media relations and human resources. It's not hard to imagine the archetype for each of those roles, and they are typically distinct personalities. The gamut of personality types includes both introverts and extroverts. And not only are those not the only two, even among introverts and extroverts, there are degrees of introversion and extroversion. Companies need all types to be optimally successful. Conflating personality types with goodness and badness is simply creating conflict. Don't fall for it.
luffapi 5y ago
I want to like this because I’m an introvert and a wfh advocate, but it doesn’t make a very good case. Gates and Musk aren’t successful because they are introverts, they’re are successful because they are sociopaths from rich families.
opinion-is-bad 5y ago
As an introvert myself, I found the book “Quiet” by Susan Cain to be an excellent read on the differences, strengths, and weaknesses of introverts vs extroverts.
DrBazza 5y ago
The reign of the introverts is definitely not here nor will it ever be. I'm increasingly of the opinion that most people in this industry think they're introverts, when actually they're just a victim of extremely poor working environments, i.e. open plan offices. No other industry I can think of has such a disparity between what an employee needs for the best productivity versus what they're given by their employer, i.e. solitude to concentrate. The longer I've spent away from an open plan office, the more sociable I've become, especially over the last 15 months. Similarly as you rise 'up the ladder', you have to communicate more, you cannot be an introvert.
- nostromo 5y ago
  I also think introversion is confused with social exhaustion. If you crave some alone time after several hours on back-to-back meetings, you’re not necessarily an introvert, you’re just human.
- paulcole 5y ago
  > Similarly as you rise 'up the ladder', you have to communicate more, you cannot be an introvert. Introverts can be excellent communicators both in 1:1 and group settings. Introversion doesn’t equal shyness. I’m an introvert who communicates all day at work. When work is done, I’m quiet and recharge.
- haswell 5y ago
  First, I do think you’re right that open floor plans and many other factors have a major impact on people in this industry. Introversion is one potential contributor to why this is a big deal. But something about the way you’re describing introversion doesn’t quite match the traditional introvert’s reality. > Similarly as you rise 'up the ladder', you have to communicate more, you cannot be an introvert. Having to communicate more (and being successful at it) do not make one an extrovert. Anecdotal: I’ve risen up the ladder, and I am without question, an introvert. The difference between me and my extroverted colleagues is that they’re energized by it, and I’m not. I have to take intentional steps to recharge later, while they're charged up by the process itself. This also means that I'm not better or worse than my extroverted colleagues at communicating or climbing the ladder, I just need to think about my source of energy differently. While I’m sure there is some truth to the broader issues caused by shared work spaces, etc. I also find that the concept of introversion/extroversion is often not what people think it is. Introverts can be well adjusted, social, and easy to talk to. People often mistake the lack of these traits for introversion, and while there can be some overlap in observed behaviors at times, the two should not be confused.
raverbashing 5y ago
> Some of the most successful introverts — Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet But, who says they are? I don't think Gates, Bezos or Zuck fit the "introvert" profile. Of course they are technical, but not necessarily introverted.
tus89 5y ago
Extroverts are mentally ill usually suffering from ADHD. This propaganda that extroverts are somehow normal and to aspire to...is just that, propaganda from the noisy, mentally ill extrovert.
every 5y ago
Both sets of "verts" have historically had their realms, strongholds and fiefdoms. What may have changed is where the profits are now increasingly flowing from...
delaynomore 5y ago
>Quiet nerds are now revered as the next generation of powerful and wealthy. Why? Because they, most likely, will be. lol what? More stereotypes?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
AnimalMuppet 5y ago
If the reign of introverts is here, then the introverts should hold enough power to get technology and/or laws that will actually stop spam phone calls and texts. Those things are brutal to introverts. The deeper you are in thought, the more damaging they are.
- HKH2 5y ago
  Or they could use the 'do not disturb' function on their phone.
smlss_sftwr 5y ago
I have a few counterpoints to those made in the article: - As much as current developments have made for more accommodating work/social environments for introverts, I wouldn't go as far as to say that "introverts have the upper hand". If anything, I would say the shift towards increasingly digital modes of interaction tends to reward those with a flair for self-advocacy even more -- just think about who tends to dominate discourse in online forums/social media/conference calls. I personally rely heavily on non-verbal cues to express myself/gauge others in social settings but there isn't really a channel for that type of expression in digital environments. That in turn leads to me feeling like I need to be more verbally engaged despite that not being my natural inclination, which then feeds back into a spiral of mental exhaustion -> degraded conversation and thinking -> more exhaustion. - The characterization of extroverts as shmoozers and social climbers and introverts as doing "actual work" is rather unfair -- in the past, I've worked with both "introverts" who recognized they could skate by just doing the bare minimum to say they did something in standup and staying out of the way of everyone else and "extroverts" who would actively drop by to check if I needed help with anything. Moreover, in roles like that of a technical lead or solutions architect, being able to clearly articulate and discuss designs is a far more important skill than being a code-cranking steam engine which by the definitions of the article are "extroverted" qualities. When it comes to implementation I'd agree that heads-down, interruption-free environments are the most conducive, but the further I progress as a software engineer the more I've come to realize that implementation is only the tip of the iceberg. I think introverts as characterized in the article do have it as good as ever as employees, but that is still far from a "reign of introverts". With the growing trends of creator economies and self-employment, self-advocacy is only going to become an even more crucial skill set and mentality to develop -- I can anecdotally attest that the notion that dedication to your craft alone is enough to carry you is a fallacy, and I think those most prone to burnout/depression in creative and self-employed endeavors are those who don't anticipate the level of self-advocacy needed to break through.
flax 5y ago
Unfortunately, the balance of power will inherently never tip to introverts for the simple reason that introverts generally do not want power over other people. We want power over our own situations. We want to be left alone. That social power over others is then claimed by those who desire it.
mgh2 5y ago
I think the article is referring to the way introverts vs. extroverts think. The work is always going to be collaborative, that is a given and the purpose of teams, but the shift right now is that as data and tech becomes more prevalent, the old times when extroverts governed by mere non-technical skills is going to wane in importance, because everything could be automated and quantified, leading to less room for human BS to climb the corporate ladder. As the article mentions which I totally agree, communication becomes more important as you move up the ladder. But here is the key: it is easier for a technical person to learn soft skills than for a nontechnical person to do the reverse. That is why the combination of engineering + MBA is so dangerous. It is because introverts are not given/interested in the chance to rule, that we don't see it often. But for a future where tech is going to dominate almost every industry, a firm's survival is going to depend on introverts. For those interested, I recommend reading the book "Quiet" by Susan Cain, it explains this pretty well.

51 points by bhalina 5y ago

I don't see remote work necessarily helping introverts since communication and online social connection is even more important when it doesn't happen by simply being in the same physical space. There is also even less social context to draw upon which is a problem for people who struggle in understanding social nuance. Introverts can very easily not make the extra effort to stay connected with co-workers which will put them at a disadvantage in terms of promotions and so on. I can see it helping those who have things like social anxiety with in person communication but that's very different from being an introvert.

MattGaiser 5y ago
> There is also even less social context to draw upon which is a problem for people who struggle in understanding social nuance. I find that very beneficial though as people know that written situations lack context (so they add more info) and are more accepting of misinterpretations (so there is a lower penalty).
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  I don't agree with this. I oftentimes see colleagues from "distant" teams who have a tendency to use their own, opaque acronyms even when they specifically look for me to help them with something. My first response is always, basically, "what's XYZ?". I think people have a tendency to assume that their context is shared by the other people. Also, on a wider level, I think that the infamous "twitter wars" are due to people taking short sentences out of context. Of course, this is likely not the only reason, but it's probably a contributor.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  My experience in the past has been the opposite. People who communicated face to face were less likely to scream at each other than people who communicated by text. Video helps with that in remote work, but it's still not everything, and introverts tend to shy away from that as well. During Covid, I think a lot of people are also feeling stressed in weird new ways, and so there's a lot of empathy for whatever people are going through right now. Without it, I think tempers would flare quicker.

ve55 5y ago

While there is definitely a real notable shift to be described here, I wouldn't want to go as far as saying that being an introvert is a true advantage over being an extrovert now (similarly, I wouldn't describe people like Bezos and Zuckerberg as 'quiet' - they are definitely spending their days communicating with a lot more people than I do, rather than programming alone in their bedrooms. Sure they're not taking interviews from journalists all day, but why would they?). I make this comment because the largest mistake I made in my adolescence was continually being too quiet, which later on I realized made just about any goal I had harder on myself, whether it was basic networking, meeting potential co-founders, customers, partners, or whatever it may be. It took me many years to realize how to be extroverted in a much more effective way, and even longer to become comfortable with things like cold-emailing people to ask for things. The skills and mindset of an introvert may be more valuable now, but knowing when you should put on your extrovert hat is still one of the highest ROI skills that one can learn (and also can be pretty difficult for many introverted mindsets to become comfortable with).

tyingq 5y ago

I wonder how much other traits and attributes that previously had high benefit have fallen off due to the increased amount of remote work. For example, there is some correlation with being tall and being successful. Probably similar for attractiveness things that don't show up in a video of just your face.

claudiulodro 5y ago

> High-paying careers favor those with the stomach for deep, solitary work. Where can I get some of this high-paid, deep, solitary work? These days software engineering is ultra-collaborative, and I doubt anybody would say that doctors/nurses, managers, finance people, or lawyers are doing deep, solitary work.

jvanderbot 5y ago
Deep, Solitary work does not mean non-collaborative. You can, without talking to a single human being, complete design reviews, claim and fix 1000s of bugs, review PRs, update and ship documentation or releases, etc etc. Deep Solitary just means "asynchronous", "uninterrupted", and "self-scheduled" in this context.
- thebackup 5y ago
  Where can I get some of this high paid, asynchronous, uninterrupted, and self-scheduled work?
- pxue 5y ago
  No it doesn’t. Reviewing other people’s PR is a collaborative task, fixing bugs "reported by others" is a collaborative work, updating docs and release notes for "other" stakeholder's consumption is collaborative work. Unless you're building a house deep in the woods for you by you, you're collaborating with other people on different levels. Let's be honest, introversion is a gradient scale, maybe we've shifted a bit more towards cutting out the office Watercooler talks but everything we do as a species is still highly collaborative.
  - jvanderbot 5y ago
    Exactly, those are obviously "collaborative" things that can happen by people working alone and without every seeing or talking to another person. The definition of collaborative that includes "In person" is just wrong.
arcturus17 5y ago

Graffur 5y ago

One thing I have noticed when WFH is that random calls are more disruptive than someone calling to your desk. When someone calls to your desk you're already in that environment. When someone calls you when WFH they're entering your environment - if that makes sense. I also notice that status update meetings seem to be more common.

TheDudeMan 5y ago
You can choose to not answer (not always, but sometimes).
- teddyh 5y ago
  “Meyerhof was about to pass on down the list when the summons came. It wasn’t really a summons. No one could summon a Grand Master. It was only a message that Division Head Trask would like very much to see Grand Master Meyerhof if Grand Master Meyerhof could spare him the time. Meyerhof might, with impunity, have tossed the message to one side and continued with whatever he was doing. He was not subject to discipline. On the other hand, were he to do that, they would continue to bother him—oh, very respectfully, but they would continue to bother him.” — Jokester, Isaac Asimov, 1956 <https://archive.org/details/Infinity_v01n06_1956-12_LennyS-cape1736/page/n39/mode/1up https://archive.org/details/Infinity_v01n06_1956-12_LennyS-c...>
- Graffur 5y ago
  True, and I do if its an unprompted call with no obvious reason.
silicon2401 5y ago
I disagree. I hate being at the office and at the mercy of whoever wants to walk by and talk to me. Even if I have an excuse for not talking, I'm still disrupted. At home, all interactions are filtered through my laptop, which is more predictable and manageable.

marcosscriven 5y ago

arcturus17 5y ago

> Expect the balance of wealth and power to shift accordingly Haha, no, absolutely not. Power and wealth will still be accumulated primarily through persuading and influencing others. Good luck accumulating significant capital without that!

jvanderbot 5y ago
I hope we understand that influencing others can happen without meeting them in a room on their schedule? If we do, then perhaps the general zeitgeist will evolve to recognize the superpower therein?
- arcturus17 5y ago
  > I hope we understand that influencing others can happen without meeting them in a room on their schedule OK, but this marginally favors introverts, if at all. People will still need to be aggressive in building relationships and influencing them. Does this sound to you like something introverts would enjoy, even if they're able to do it on Zoom?
  - marcinzm 5y ago
    Me and some other introverts I know actually find Zoom calls more draining than in person conversations. Not sure why.
    - arcturus17 5y ago
      I'm not sure I'm an introvert, I think I live in a broad range between the two poles, but I definitely notice that sometimes too.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- toyg 5y ago
  In that case, it might favour "people who can type fast", not "introverts".

unethical_ban 5y ago

I'd be more receptive to the discussion if they didn't seem to be so "rub it in your face" about it. I have gotten the feeling that introverts (especially those who write about it on blogs) have a chip on their shoulder about silly things like "needing to communicate clearly" or "having to interact with other human beings". If you want to be successful, you need to know how to communicate clearly, and you need to be diplomatic and know how to affect the outcome you're looking to. "How to win friends and influence people" is still a good book to read on the subject. And what the hell is that "dating app" section, as if "witty one liners on an app" is somehow a contrast, or even a good thing, compared to meeting people at a bar or social event? The whole article is whack. As someone who has historically been an extrovert but has become more introverted in the past two years, I feel like I have gotten a handicap - I feel I have lost skills that I need to regain. I also think the WFH revolution (and the glee with which it is embraced) is a pendulum on the far end of positive, which I think will swing back a bit when people realize all the dreams of WFH don't materialize. Many people won't become nomadic. Many people won't move to that low-cost midwest city, save hundreds of thousands and FIRE at 45. All the things people are taking for granted now, like having an existing network of work contacts from the pre-covid days) will evaporate, and they'll be left trying to replicate what they took for granted, from home.

Clubber 5y ago

I think the author is making a lot of assumptions here. I'll break them down. > High-paying careers favor those with the stomach for deep, solitary work. I assume he means programming. Just because you work in a solitary environment doesn't mean you're an introvert. It really more requires the ability to focus more than anything in my experience. I've known a bunch of great programmers who were also extroverts. > In-person schmoozing has taken a backseat to an online workday where the ability to self-motivate matters most. I don't think this has changed because promotion is based largely on human bias more than anything. Making an impression on someone is still as important as it ever was, we just do it using a different medium. (zoom, teams, slack, email). > Crafting a witty one-liner on apps determines your dating success — not the ability to pick someone up at a bar. It might get you a date, but your personality gets you the second date.

abvdasker 5y ago

I've always felt that the introvert/extrovert dichotomy is such an oversimplification that it fails to be useful as a form of categorization. The degree to which someone is outgoing vs reserved is highly context dependent: maybe an individual is extraverted in their personal life but more restrained in a professional environment. Measuring these things is also so subjective that much of this is just a wash. Pieces of business-pop psychology like this one seem mostly designed to tell their audience wants to hear with just enough of an edge to provoke engagement.

fallat 5y ago
This is how I feel about most categorizations. I did some research the other night about problems with categorization, but surprisingly couldn't find much. While categorization is good for quick communication, it usually abstracts too much. Rather than category, we should see things as types? Maybe this is one in the same?
vidarh 5y ago
Being introvert vs extrovert is not about how one acts in social situations but whether one finds social situations draining or giving energy. For some introverts that translates into avoiding social activity, but that is by no means a given. I like many social situations and can be outgoing and animated in the right context, but no matter how much I might enjoy that, it is still exhausting to me, and that is what makes me introverted. I need solitude to recharge.
- didibus 5y ago
  In this classification, it begs the question, do extroverts feel drained and demotivated when not in social contexts?
  - gwoplock 5y ago
    I think that's generally the idea. Extroverts drain their "battery" in isolation and recharge in social settings.

yuy910616 5y ago

Good idea and poorly written. This low-brow content should really be posted on Reddit and not HN: 1. Definition of Introvert is wrong: introvert can be gregarious, loud, and fun at parties. Introvert vs extrovert is more determined by where you get your energy from. 2. Mostly copies idea from this article [1] [1] https://marker.medium.com/context-sensitivity-and-the-introvert-experience-a73002d3ca84 https://marker.medium.com/context-sensitivity-and-the-introv...

prionassembly 5y ago
I'd argue that bad content shouldn't be posted anywhere.
choxi 5y ago
Is there any good research to support "introvert vs extrovert is more determined by where you get your energy from" or is it just one of those folk wisdoms like power posing and ego depletion?
- yuy910616 5y ago
  I'm not sure actually, it was taught at my college's psy 101 class

paulpauper 5y ago

It is not so much about intorversion vs. extorverson but rather IQ. Similar the 2008 financial crisis, the biggest losers of the Covid crisis and its recovery are the untalented, whose jobs are pay little and are replaceable and interchangeable like cogs. And the biggest winners, similar again to the post-2008 recovery, are the talented, whose wages exceed inflation and whose contributions are valued and are harder to replace. Yet I have heard about plenty of people in major tech cmpanies like google and apple feeling like they are in a rut despite the good pay. So if you measure satisfaction by just money you miss out on other factors. It's not like a tech job guantees a path to deep and fulfilling work.

AnotherTechie 5y ago
IQ and pay are not related
- sz4kerto 5y ago
  They're correlated. The correlation is not 1, of course, but definitely positive. (Won't provide references -- there's plenty on the internet.) People in the bottom 30 percentile earn way less than people in the top 30.
  - paulpauper 5y ago
    I dunno why this is such a hard concept for people to understand Imagine you want to earn money and thus you need learn a skill. Which would earn you more money: learning to code or learning to stock shelves.
    - username90 5y ago
      Those people would argue that learning to code has nothing to do with IQ.
    - gwoplock 5y ago
      > Imagine you want to earn money and thus you need learn a skill. Which would earn you more money: learning to code or learning to weld? Highly skilled work is highly paid work.

AnotherTechie 5y ago

Introvert vs. Extrovert isn't really backed by anything. Perhaps an equally meaningful title would be "the reign of gemini is here" and we could all enjoy that cosmopolitan article together :')

aviraldg 5y ago

One of the changes due to WFH that I'm happiest about is how all meetings are now online, which makes my inability* to find the right time to take a turn speaking in a conversation less of a problem (since it's possible to "raise a hand" in most online meeting apps, or just drop a message in chat.) Better still, most meetings can be converted to emails, so this situation doesn't arise in the first place. I don't think most people realise how much anxiety this kind of stuff causes "introverts". * Also shared by most people with ADHD.

MattGaiser 5y ago
I also like that I can effectively opt out of the meeting just by moving my real work to my forward facing monitor and putting the meeting on the side.

11thEarlOfMar 5y ago

Companies cannot grow and be successful without a wide variety of roles. And different roles tend to attract different personality types. The personality type for sales and the personality type for accounting are likely to have much less overlap than the personality types for media relations and human resources. It's not hard to imagine the archetype for each of those roles, and they are typically distinct personalities. The gamut of personality types includes both introverts and extroverts. And not only are those not the only two, even among introverts and extroverts, there are degrees of introversion and extroversion. Companies need all types to be optimally successful. Conflating personality types with goodness and badness is simply creating conflict. Don't fall for it.

luffapi 5y ago

I want to like this because I’m an introvert and a wfh advocate, but it doesn’t make a very good case. Gates and Musk aren’t successful because they are introverts, they’re are successful because they are sociopaths from rich families.

opinion-is-bad 5y ago

As an introvert myself, I found the book “Quiet” by Susan Cain to be an excellent read on the differences, strengths, and weaknesses of introverts vs extroverts.

DrBazza 5y ago

The reign of the introverts is definitely not here nor will it ever be. I'm increasingly of the opinion that most people in this industry think they're introverts, when actually they're just a victim of extremely poor working environments, i.e. open plan offices. No other industry I can think of has such a disparity between what an employee needs for the best productivity versus what they're given by their employer, i.e. solitude to concentrate. The longer I've spent away from an open plan office, the more sociable I've become, especially over the last 15 months. Similarly as you rise 'up the ladder', you have to communicate more, you cannot be an introvert.

nostromo 5y ago
I also think introversion is confused with social exhaustion. If you crave some alone time after several hours on back-to-back meetings, you’re not necessarily an introvert, you’re just human.
paulcole 5y ago
> Similarly as you rise 'up the ladder', you have to communicate more, you cannot be an introvert. Introverts can be excellent communicators both in 1:1 and group settings. Introversion doesn’t equal shyness. I’m an introvert who communicates all day at work. When work is done, I’m quiet and recharge.
haswell 5y ago
First, I do think you’re right that open floor plans and many other factors have a major impact on people in this industry. Introversion is one potential contributor to why this is a big deal. But something about the way you’re describing introversion doesn’t quite match the traditional introvert’s reality. > Similarly as you rise 'up the ladder', you have to communicate more, you cannot be an introvert. Having to communicate more (and being successful at it) do not make one an extrovert. Anecdotal: I’ve risen up the ladder, and I am without question, an introvert. The difference between me and my extroverted colleagues is that they’re energized by it, and I’m not. I have to take intentional steps to recharge later, while they're charged up by the process itself. This also means that I'm not better or worse than my extroverted colleagues at communicating or climbing the ladder, I just need to think about my source of energy differently. While I’m sure there is some truth to the broader issues caused by shared work spaces, etc. I also find that the concept of introversion/extroversion is often not what people think it is. Introverts can be well adjusted, social, and easy to talk to. People often mistake the lack of these traits for introversion, and while there can be some overlap in observed behaviors at times, the two should not be confused.

raverbashing 5y ago

> Some of the most successful introverts — Bill Gates, Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Warren Buffet But, who says they are? I don't think Gates, Bezos or Zuck fit the "introvert" profile. Of course they are technical, but not necessarily introverted.

tus89 5y ago

Extroverts are mentally ill usually suffering from ADHD. This propaganda that extroverts are somehow normal and to aspire to...is just that, propaganda from the noisy, mentally ill extrovert.

every 5y ago

Both sets of "verts" have historically had their realms, strongholds and fiefdoms. What may have changed is where the profits are now increasingly flowing from...

delaynomore 5y ago

>Quiet nerds are now revered as the next generation of powerful and wealthy. Why? Because they, most likely, will be. lol what? More stereotypes?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

AnimalMuppet 5y ago

If the reign of introverts is here, then the introverts should hold enough power to get technology and/or laws that will actually stop spam phone calls and texts. Those things are brutal to introverts. The deeper you are in thought, the more damaging they are.

HKH2 5y ago
Or they could use the 'do not disturb' function on their phone.

smlss_sftwr 5y ago

I have a few counterpoints to those made in the article: - As much as current developments have made for more accommodating work/social environments for introverts, I wouldn't go as far as to say that "introverts have the upper hand". If anything, I would say the shift towards increasingly digital modes of interaction tends to reward those with a flair for self-advocacy even more -- just think about who tends to dominate discourse in online forums/social media/conference calls. I personally rely heavily on non-verbal cues to express myself/gauge others in social settings but there isn't really a channel for that type of expression in digital environments. That in turn leads to me feeling like I need to be more verbally engaged despite that not being my natural inclination, which then feeds back into a spiral of mental exhaustion -> degraded conversation and thinking -> more exhaustion. - The characterization of extroverts as shmoozers and social climbers and introverts as doing "actual work" is rather unfair -- in the past, I've worked with both "introverts" who recognized they could skate by just doing the bare minimum to say they did something in standup and staying out of the way of everyone else and "extroverts" who would actively drop by to check if I needed help with anything. Moreover, in roles like that of a technical lead or solutions architect, being able to clearly articulate and discuss designs is a far more important skill than being a code-cranking steam engine which by the definitions of the article are "extroverted" qualities. When it comes to implementation I'd agree that heads-down, interruption-free environments are the most conducive, but the further I progress as a software engineer the more I've come to realize that implementation is only the tip of the iceberg. I think introverts as characterized in the article do have it as good as ever as employees, but that is still far from a "reign of introverts". With the growing trends of creator economies and self-employment, self-advocacy is only going to become an even more crucial skill set and mentality to develop -- I can anecdotally attest that the notion that dedication to your craft alone is enough to carry you is a fallacy, and I think those most prone to burnout/depression in creative and self-employed endeavors are those who don't anticipate the level of self-advocacy needed to break through.

flax 5y ago

Unfortunately, the balance of power will inherently never tip to introverts for the simple reason that introverts generally do not want power over other people. We want power over our own situations. We want to be left alone. That social power over others is then claimed by those who desire it.

mgh2 5y ago

I think the article is referring to the way introverts vs. extroverts think. The work is always going to be collaborative, that is a given and the purpose of teams, but the shift right now is that as data and tech becomes more prevalent, the old times when extroverts governed by mere non-technical skills is going to wane in importance, because everything could be automated and quantified, leading to less room for human BS to climb the corporate ladder. As the article mentions which I totally agree, communication becomes more important as you move up the ladder. But here is the key: it is easier for a technical person to learn soft skills than for a nontechnical person to do the reverse. That is why the combination of engineering + MBA is so dangerous. It is because introverts are not given/interested in the chance to rule, that we don't see it often. But for a future where tech is going to dominate almost every industry, a firm's survival is going to depend on introverts. For those interested, I recommend reading the book "Quiet" by Susan Cain, it explains this pretty well.