8 ms·
Microsoft really is one of the worst examples in the dark pattern department that I've ever seen. Same with their email service, where you can register an acco
by alpaca128 5y ago
Microsoft really is one of the worst examples in the dark pattern department that I've ever seen.
Same with their email service, where you can register an account without issues and after a few weeks of use I was presented with an unskippable input field for my phone number. Don't want to give MS your phone number? Too bad, better hope you don't need those emails anymore.
- GuB-42 5y agoGoogle does that too.
- dzdt 5y agoTwitter also. You can create an account without a phone number but in about 2 weeks it is locked unless you supply and verify one.
- SketchySeaBeast 5y agoI got my account reported and locked on twitter and they would only unlock it if I supplied my phone number. Now I have no twitter and am honestly happier for it.
- diogenesjunior 5y agoYep. Main reason why I do not use Twitter. I'll stick to HN.
- croes 5y agoMy Twitter account got locked in about a minute.
- b0tzzzzzzman 5y agoTook about 5 for me.
- gentleman11 5y agoTook me a day
- pansa2 5y agoFacebook does exactly the same.
- Asooka 5y agoIn my case they accepted a shady Romanian SMS service account. Had to try several until one worked.
- tu7001 5y agoI have twitter without phone number, typing from Poland
- probably_wrong 5y agoThat's how I lost my GMail account - they demanded a telephone number so I relented and gave them mine, but they refuse to accept it. They won't take my work number either.
- saul_goodman 5y agoPhone numbers have become the new SSN tied to your physical identity. In most cases you have provide extremely detailed personal info to get a working phone number. There are probably still some ways crafty folks can get a working phone number without it being tied to your physical identity, but you must go way out of your way to do so. Privacy and freedom of speech are dead, long live the constitution.
- wyldfire 5y agoIt's frustrating for sure but the reason that they want a phone number is because it's an excellent key to join lots of independent records about you. The companies who ask for your phone number don't care if the phone company knows where you live. They don't even need to ask the phone company, all they have to do is join up with a vendor who you did disclose your address to. You can at least do yourself a mild favor and don't tell your phone number to all those brick n mortar companies who ask for it. "we'll never call you" -- of course they don't, they just want your individual identity to track you.
- dolmen 5y agoIt's at least an excellent key that they can provide to country authorities if they request one. That's also an excellent way to ensure the user juridiction based on the IP address and phone number country code for 99% of users.
- at-fates-hands 5y agoI've tried several privacy apps where you can set up phone numbers not attached to your identity and google refused to let me use any of them.
- 5y ago
- nix23 5y agoI really don't get it. Microsoft has an OS and a Cloud (Azure and Windows) and make pretty much good money with it, but both have a great need for privacy. I really don't get what Microsoft is thinking.
- toyg 5y agoMicrosoft is thinking that Apple somehow manages to have billions of people creating "iTunes" accounts, and they don't, and what the hell, John, why don't WE get all that sweet data and them big account numbers, can't we do what they do? Sure, Bob, but some people will get upse--Screw them, John! what they gonna do, move to Apple and pay more get the same treatment? Just fix the damn process, John, I want those account numbers up 300% by Q3. ...Alright Bob, you're the boss.
- agloeregrets 5y ago....actually you do not need an iCloud account to use a mac or iPhone, but on iPhone you do need an iCloud account to download apps. On mac you can setup and use the machine entirely offline forever. The same irony goes for the Windows 11 CPU support, the next version of macOS supports machines twice as old as Windows 11 supports. Microsoft embraces alt payment methods in the store and supports regulation, Apple doesn't and is the monopoly. The world is upside down in such strange ways in 2021.
- toyg 5y ago> you do not need an iCloud account to use a mac or iPhone ... but you are similarly prompted and dark-patterned to create one anyway. It is just marginally easier to skip the choice, if you don't mind being nagged or diving into the buried option you need to switch it all off. And without an account, loads of features like family Screen Time don't even work. Apple paved the way, while MS was being cautious because of the browser-related legal challenges. They made all this socially acceptable, so at one point the guys in Redmond rightly went "why can't we do the same?" and here we are.
- 5y ago
- nayuki 5y agoThis makes Microsoft's purchase of LinkedIn a good fit as another master of dark patterns.
- gentleman11 5y agoLinkedIn is so full of dark patterns that there is barely room for the site any more. I keep missing recruiter messages because my LinkedIn email just goes to spam because they send so much junk to try and boost engagement. It’s like being stuck in a room with a car salesperson. I’m thinking of deleting it
- developer93 5y agoI have a separate email for job hunting which LinkedIn and Xing etc go to, and it only gets opened when I need a new job
- sm4rk0 5y agoI've deleted my LinkedIn account the same day I found my data and trust were sold out to MS without my consent. And I don't feel I'm missing anything.
- LightG 5y agoIncreasingly Google also ... hate it. Like, look, I don't want or need to give you my phone number, capiche? Try Tinder and get off my case. Thanks.
- tinus_hn 5y agoGoogle paved the way for that trick, Gmail does exactly the same.
- r00fus 5y agoSo is there a way to use Gmail without creating a "Google" account?
- BeetleB 5y agoI believe he is referring to the need to provide a number to continue to access your Gmail account.
- dolmen 5y agoAnd now Gmail does it for the birth date. After login I have to reload https://mail.google.com https://mail.google.com to skip the form.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- grishka 5y agoWhat happens if you use that account with an email client instead?
- gruez 5y agoAFAIK many mail providers have disabled password authentication via IMAP/SMTP. They force you to go through oauth flow (ie. opening a webview to log in).
- raxxorrax 5y agoIMAP does accept plain text passwords, but this is not a real security threat either because of TLS. I hate all the FUD security blogs that tell you otherwise. This "industry" has become extremely useless and doesn't even give sensible security advice anymore. Yes, of couse 2FA is theoretically better. Until facebooks leaks half a billion phone numbers + account information. That is a vastly more serious threat. I don't know a single case where TLS was compromised from an IMAP client. Perhaps if it is 15 years old? I hate this industry so damn much. People should be homeless, not security advisers...
- gruez 5y ago>I don't know a single case where TLS was compromised from an IMAP client. Perhaps if it is 15 years old? I hate this industry so damn much. People should be homeless, not security advisers... You're thinking of the wrong threat model. They're not concerned about passwords being stolen being in transit, but rather using the IMAP endpoint for credential stuffing attempts. An IMAP login attempt contains very little zero metadata, so it's very hard to judge whether it's legitimate or not. With a web login you can get tons of stuff to judge the authenticity of the user, eg. fingerprinting.
- grishka 5y agoOn a related note: people like criticizing Telegram because its encryption is "not industry standard". Except Telegram has existed for 8 years now, and MTProto encryption still hasn't been compromised.
- politelemon 5y agoSame with Google. Same with Apple. Each I feel are worse than MS. The other day I tried using an iPad and could not proceed without signing in, and giving over my credit card details. The dark pattern being that it tricks you into thinking that you _can_ proceed without either.
- no_time 5y ago>Microsoft really is one of the worst examples in the dark pattern department that I've ever seen. It's insane. Every I reinstall windows and try to download Firefox, the number of times Microsoft pleads to continue using Edge is increasing.
- naikrovek 5y agoit's not really a dark pattern if it's not trying to trick you.
- alpaca128 5y agoIt literally injects a "are you really, definitely sure you want to switch away from Edge?" kind of entry in the top search results when you use the preinstalled Edge to look up another browser. That is absolutely a dark pattern in my book, of the manipulative and desperate kind. Not to mention the constant struggle to (re)set your favorite browser as default where Windows fights you at every corner in pretty much the most extreme way that Microsoft can hope to get away with unless they want to risk sanctions from the EU.