4 ms·

Posted this on the other thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27653450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27653450), I'll copy it here... I don't rea

Posted this on the other thread (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27653450 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27653450), I'll copy it here... I don't really know what to say here. I didn't know them personally, but I saw their work and was truly stunned. Most people don't achieve in their entire lives what Near (aka Byuu) did in their comparatively short one. To say I was impressed is an understatement. I simply don't have the words. What happened, shouldn't have happened. There needs to be a wider discussion of responsibility of hosting providers for the actions of their customers, and especially Cloudflare for shielding illegal acts. But that's a discussion for another day. Tonight, the sky is darker, for the loss of one of its brightest stars.

umvi 5y ago
> There needs to be a wider discussion of responsibility of hosting providers for the actions of their customers How about holding the actual bullies accountable instead of shifting accountability to the ISP/Host? What happens in real life (i.e. outside the context of the internet) if bullies harass someone with hate mail until that person commits suicide? Does the blame shift away from the bullies to USPS or FedEx for failing to shield the recipient from the hate mail? I could see a case made against kiwi farms, but cloudflare? They are infrastructure level and should not get in user content moderation imo
- falcolas 5y ago
  Cloudflare has already proven willing to stop supporting sites based on their content. They’ve opened the doors, so it’s not unreasonable to expect that they could/would/should do it again.
  - philpem 5y ago
    People have been complaining for years about some of the content they shield (KF especially). The site is responsible for at least one previous suicide. Their response is always the same... to forward the complaints onto the abuser for them to laugh at. Cloudflare has only ever intervened in matters like this when the mainstream press has given them an absolute and utter kicking. The sad fact is, when you have your own AS-number and peering agreement, you can do pretty much whatever you like on the Internet. De-peering a few of the worst network abusers and "it's not my problem, I just want the money" merchants would go a long way to improving the internet for the rest of us. This might seem hardline, but it's not without precedent: the precedent is the Internet itself, in its earlier days.
    - shadowgovt 5y ago
      Would anything stop the de-peered providers from peeing with each other, leading to a balkanized internet?
      - sitkack 5y ago
        ISVs would love it, you could sign up for multiple networks. It would be like paying for a gateway provider to reach an existing walled garden like China.
- to11mtm 5y ago
  One challenge that may be perceived is that while 'eggshell rule' exists [0], any wrongful death case involves a jury of people, a decent portion of which would rather not think about the damages their own bad actions towards others have caused. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
- philpem 5y ago
  I absolutely agree with making the bullies accountable, and making the networks accountable should only be in addition to that. The guy who runs the site is a US citizen. If the police don't give a damn (which seems to be the case)... why aren't US citizens writing to their representatives about this?
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    > why aren't US citizens writing to their representatives about this? Does that actually do anything?
- user-the-name 5y ago
  The aim here is to stop the people who bully others to suicide. That is what is important. Kiwifarms is self hosted, there is no host to complain to.
yourapostasy 5y ago
> Most people don't achieve in their entire lives what Near (aka Byuu) did in their comparatively short one. I'm astonished that someone with this caliber of attention to detail and proven track record to deliver was not already in at least an internship program. Would have definitely earned at least a closer scrutiny from me and I would have pulled strings to accommodate their special needs if that closer look held up. KF depravity, if practiced upon a puppy with mapped-over harassment as say, constant yelling or similar behavior, if documented, would net the perps with harsher consequences than the nada they will get. An individual's character is measured by how they behave when no one is watching. A civilization's strength is measured by how it behaves when its weakest members are preyed upon.
nrook 5y ago
I had a mathematics teacher in high school who had a line about the Romans: "The biggest impact the Romans had on mathematics was killing Archimedes." The biggest impact Matthew Prince, CEO of Cloudflare, had on the technology community is killing Near and so many others by standing behind these sites. This is the principle for which he stands.

umvi 5y ago

> There needs to be a wider discussion of responsibility of hosting providers for the actions of their customers How about holding the actual bullies accountable instead of shifting accountability to the ISP/Host? What happens in real life (i.e. outside the context of the internet) if bullies harass someone with hate mail until that person commits suicide? Does the blame shift away from the bullies to USPS or FedEx for failing to shield the recipient from the hate mail? I could see a case made against kiwi farms, but cloudflare? They are infrastructure level and should not get in user content moderation imo

falcolas 5y ago
Cloudflare has already proven willing to stop supporting sites based on their content. They’ve opened the doors, so it’s not unreasonable to expect that they could/would/should do it again.
- philpem 5y ago
  People have been complaining for years about some of the content they shield (KF especially). The site is responsible for at least one previous suicide. Their response is always the same... to forward the complaints onto the abuser for them to laugh at. Cloudflare has only ever intervened in matters like this when the mainstream press has given them an absolute and utter kicking. The sad fact is, when you have your own AS-number and peering agreement, you can do pretty much whatever you like on the Internet. De-peering a few of the worst network abusers and "it's not my problem, I just want the money" merchants would go a long way to improving the internet for the rest of us. This might seem hardline, but it's not without precedent: the precedent is the Internet itself, in its earlier days.
  - shadowgovt 5y ago
    Would anything stop the de-peered providers from peeing with each other, leading to a balkanized internet?
    - sitkack 5y ago
      ISVs would love it, you could sign up for multiple networks. It would be like paying for a gateway provider to reach an existing walled garden like China.
to11mtm 5y ago
One challenge that may be perceived is that while 'eggshell rule' exists [0], any wrongful death case involves a jury of people, a decent portion of which would rather not think about the damages their own bad actions towards others have caused. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull
philpem 5y ago
I absolutely agree with making the bullies accountable, and making the networks accountable should only be in addition to that. The guy who runs the site is a US citizen. If the police don't give a damn (which seems to be the case)... why aren't US citizens writing to their representatives about this?
- dahfizz 5y ago
  > why aren't US citizens writing to their representatives about this? Does that actually do anything?
user-the-name 5y ago
The aim here is to stop the people who bully others to suicide. That is what is important. Kiwifarms is self hosted, there is no host to complain to.

yourapostasy 5y ago

> Most people don't achieve in their entire lives what Near (aka Byuu) did in their comparatively short one. I'm astonished that someone with this caliber of attention to detail and proven track record to deliver was not already in at least an internship program. Would have definitely earned at least a closer scrutiny from me and I would have pulled strings to accommodate their special needs if that closer look held up. KF depravity, if practiced upon a puppy with mapped-over harassment as say, constant yelling or similar behavior, if documented, would net the perps with harsher consequences than the nada they will get. An individual's character is measured by how they behave when no one is watching. A civilization's strength is measured by how it behaves when its weakest members are preyed upon.

nrook 5y ago

I had a mathematics teacher in high school who had a line about the Romans: "The biggest impact the Romans had on mathematics was killing Archimedes." The biggest impact Matthew Prince, CEO of Cloudflare, had on the technology community is killing Near and so many others by standing behind these sites. This is the principle for which he stands.