4 ms·

>"The Old World supplied the immigrants. It seems to be very weird that you’re saying that people can’t take culture with them," You can take the culture, not

by Bayart 5y ago

>"The Old World supplied the immigrants. It seems to be very weird that you’re saying that people can’t take culture with them," You can take the culture, not the terroir, that's the point. Actual buffalo mozzarella from Campania, to take something that would be familiar to an English-speaking audience, just tastes different. Using the same process isn't enough. And that's assuming the culture survives untouched, which it never does.

djbebs 5y ago
Theres no such thing as "terroir" the whole concept is bullshit intended to justify the unjustifiable.
- Bayart 5y ago
  It's a core part of how we think about food. And pretty much all of the Old World works the same, really. There's a reason why it's a complete non-issue in Asia. What's that so-called « unjustifiable », dare I ask ?
- dariosalvi78 5y ago
  then try the real buffalo mozzarella and any other copy you find elsewhere. I am from Naples and I have lived about half of my life in other countries, and in each country I have tried to find a decent local substitute of mozzarella: I couldn't. Maybe it's a secret technique, maybe it's the air, who knows, but the fact remains that the only real mozzarella comes from there.
  - quesera 5y ago
    I agree and I sympathize, but ... Your preferences and your conditioning bias you to believe that there is only one correct interpretation. It is your favorite, and you can justify that by believing that it is the original and the only proper version. You miss that product when you are away from home. I feel the same way about some local foods that I grew up with, but I don't support Global Trade Law that would prevent someone else from trying to reproduce (or interpret) the food in question without being required to invent a new name for it. I think a more equitable (and workable) approach to this problem is to establish organizations whose members a) create defensible trademarks, b) accept memberships from producers who meet quality/regionality/whatever standards, c) promote this differentiation in the market. I understand that "Champagne" means something special to residents (and economic development groups!) in that region of France. But to the vast bulk of the world, "champagne" is just a product and usually a pretty crappy one. Buffalo wings, and buffalo mozzarella. Two great tastes that taste great together. You might not think this is an even exchange, but many will disagree, and it's entirely subjective anyway. So I say "Thank you and you're welcome!" :)
    - dariosalvi78 5y ago
      My comment was related to the fact that there actually is "something", call it terroir, call it local knowledge or whatever that makes those products different, no matter how hard you try to reproduce them outside (and no, it's not nostalgia, people I know who are not even Italian have the same opinion). For what regards the rule, the main reason it exists is to protect local businesses I think. Many of these productions are local and small. If someone big from US or China comes with a product of the same name the industry where the product was created is lost forever.
api 5y ago
I find it hard to believe we can’t figure out why it tastes different.
- ska 5y ago
  We mostly know what makes it taste different. The problem is, most of it is expensive and time consuming. People would like to take cheaper approaches and market as the same thing. The terroir aspect is often overblown but does contribute. Far more often the issues is something like "milk is milk, right?" which just isn't true.
  - api 5y ago
    That seems like a clearer description of the problem. The issue isn’t so much where it comes from as how it’s made. Someone in the original place of origin could cut corners too.
    - riffraff 5y ago
      The EU system is pretty weak, but it's the result of trade offs, like everything else. You could be more strict, as France and Italy do for wines for example: italian wine can come with either an IGT label ("made in the right place") or a DOC one ("made in the right place in the right way") or a DOCG one ("made in the right place, the right way, and we actually checked the specific production"). The alternative is to have a local consortium certify the producers/products: parmigiano reggiano can only be labeled such if the local Consorzio checked it (all wheels are checked). The PDO system ensures that there is no abuse cross-border (no polish "parmesan"), while the Consorzio guarantees the quality (no corners cut). Worth saying that you can have great products with no label and made wherever, but the system exists to avoid someone capitalizing on the work of others.
      - fennecfoxen 5y ago
        The PDO approach impairs competition by making it impossible to legally refer to food with a name that people understand. In the US we see similar complaints arise from time to time when various agencies declare that you may not name your product "oat milk" because milk is defined as cow milk that is fortified with vitamins A and D (skim milk that is not fortified, for instance, gets to be named "imitation skim milk" or "imitation milk product"). Similar complaints abound around labeling meat substitutes as "burgers" (Tofurky had to sue the state of Louisiana over this one). French wine regulators have even sent sternly worded letters to the maker of "Cat Wine," an artificially colored liquid catnip product sold in novelty bottles (they objected to "purrsecco", I believe it was?) There is something real all these product-identity labels are protecting — it's just that over 80% what they're protecting is some producer's grasp on the market; actual customer benefit is a distant second.
pvaldes 5y ago
Many traditional cheese is made in caves. Each cave has different temperature, humidity and with a unique microbiota that is exclusive and relatively stable. This is often the bottleneck in production. You can't made more cheese than the space available in caves. 1) Is not easy to replicate it, even if you steal the recipe. 2) The laws that regulate the process will differ for other countries, because the culture is different and there are also concepts like kosher, etc. 3) And you can't use a building always. The undesirable microorganisms in a house will overcome easily the desirable ones contaminating the product

by Bayart 5y ago

djbebs 5y ago

Theres no such thing as "terroir" the whole concept is bullshit intended to justify the unjustifiable.

Bayart 5y ago
It's a core part of how we think about food. And pretty much all of the Old World works the same, really. There's a reason why it's a complete non-issue in Asia. What's that so-called « unjustifiable », dare I ask ?
dariosalvi78 5y ago
then try the real buffalo mozzarella and any other copy you find elsewhere. I am from Naples and I have lived about half of my life in other countries, and in each country I have tried to find a decent local substitute of mozzarella: I couldn't. Maybe it's a secret technique, maybe it's the air, who knows, but the fact remains that the only real mozzarella comes from there.
- quesera 5y ago
  I agree and I sympathize, but ... Your preferences and your conditioning bias you to believe that there is only one correct interpretation. It is your favorite, and you can justify that by believing that it is the original and the only proper version. You miss that product when you are away from home. I feel the same way about some local foods that I grew up with, but I don't support Global Trade Law that would prevent someone else from trying to reproduce (or interpret) the food in question without being required to invent a new name for it. I think a more equitable (and workable) approach to this problem is to establish organizations whose members a) create defensible trademarks, b) accept memberships from producers who meet quality/regionality/whatever standards, c) promote this differentiation in the market. I understand that "Champagne" means something special to residents (and economic development groups!) in that region of France. But to the vast bulk of the world, "champagne" is just a product and usually a pretty crappy one. Buffalo wings, and buffalo mozzarella. Two great tastes that taste great together. You might not think this is an even exchange, but many will disagree, and it's entirely subjective anyway. So I say "Thank you and you're welcome!" :)
  - dariosalvi78 5y ago
    My comment was related to the fact that there actually is "something", call it terroir, call it local knowledge or whatever that makes those products different, no matter how hard you try to reproduce them outside (and no, it's not nostalgia, people I know who are not even Italian have the same opinion). For what regards the rule, the main reason it exists is to protect local businesses I think. Many of these productions are local and small. If someone big from US or China comes with a product of the same name the industry where the product was created is lost forever.

api 5y ago

I find it hard to believe we can’t figure out why it tastes different.

ska 5y ago
We mostly know what makes it taste different. The problem is, most of it is expensive and time consuming. People would like to take cheaper approaches and market as the same thing. The terroir aspect is often overblown but does contribute. Far more often the issues is something like "milk is milk, right?" which just isn't true.
- api 5y ago
  That seems like a clearer description of the problem. The issue isn’t so much where it comes from as how it’s made. Someone in the original place of origin could cut corners too.
  - riffraff 5y ago
    The EU system is pretty weak, but it's the result of trade offs, like everything else. You could be more strict, as France and Italy do for wines for example: italian wine can come with either an IGT label ("made in the right place") or a DOC one ("made in the right place in the right way") or a DOCG one ("made in the right place, the right way, and we actually checked the specific production"). The alternative is to have a local consortium certify the producers/products: parmigiano reggiano can only be labeled such if the local Consorzio checked it (all wheels are checked). The PDO system ensures that there is no abuse cross-border (no polish "parmesan"), while the Consorzio guarantees the quality (no corners cut). Worth saying that you can have great products with no label and made wherever, but the system exists to avoid someone capitalizing on the work of others.
    - fennecfoxen 5y ago
      The PDO approach impairs competition by making it impossible to legally refer to food with a name that people understand. In the US we see similar complaints arise from time to time when various agencies declare that you may not name your product "oat milk" because milk is defined as cow milk that is fortified with vitamins A and D (skim milk that is not fortified, for instance, gets to be named "imitation skim milk" or "imitation milk product"). Similar complaints abound around labeling meat substitutes as "burgers" (Tofurky had to sue the state of Louisiana over this one). French wine regulators have even sent sternly worded letters to the maker of "Cat Wine," an artificially colored liquid catnip product sold in novelty bottles (they objected to "purrsecco", I believe it was?) There is something real all these product-identity labels are protecting — it's just that over 80% what they're protecting is some producer's grasp on the market; actual customer benefit is a distant second.

pvaldes 5y ago

Many traditional cheese is made in caves. Each cave has different temperature, humidity and with a unique microbiota that is exclusive and relatively stable. This is often the bottleneck in production. You can't made more cheese than the space available in caves. 1) Is not easy to replicate it, even if you steal the recipe. 2) The laws that regulate the process will differ for other countries, because the culture is different and there are also concepts like kosher, etc. 3) And you can't use a building always. The undesirable microorganisms in a house will overcome easily the desirable ones contaminating the product