9 ms·

Windows support will continue to at least 2025, so it's hardly like users are being left behind - they have multiple years to upgrade, and Microsoft has typical

Windows support will continue to at least 2025, so it's hardly like users are being left behind - they have multiple years to upgrade, and Microsoft has typically extended its support window when the time comes. What MS is doing here is forcing OEMs to package TPM 2.0, which will be a massive win for security. The intel generation is seemingly a bit arbitrary, we'll see how that plays out. But again, it's not like people are being left behind - they have 4+ years of support left.

userbinator 5y ago
"security" that is against the user. Some people knew what was coming 12 years ago... http://techrights.org/2009/04/23/bill-gates-security-as-a-lockin-comes/ http://techrights.org/2009/04/23/bill-gates-security-as-a-lo... http://techrights.org/2009/06/25/security-as-a-lock-in-gates/ http://techrights.org/2009/06/25/security-as-a-lock-in-gates...
- dane-pgp 5y ago
  You're correct, and the dangers of this redefinition of "security" were known even further back: "Unfortunately, the attestation model in TCG's current design can equally effectively prevent the software on a computer from being changed deliberately by the computer owner with his or her full knowledge and consent. While the owner is always free to alter software, attestation adds a new risk: doing so may now eliminate the computer's ability to interoperate with other computers." https://www.eff.org/files/20031001_tc.pdf https://www.eff.org/files/20031001_tc.pdf
  - iggldiggl 5y ago
    Which can already be seen in action on Android: Various apps refuse to work if you're rooted, and Google is now slowly moving over to hardware-based attestation that probably can no longer be easily fooled.
- IntelMiner 5y ago
  Techrights is the Alex Jones of the Linux world. They are an absolute nutter and should not be held in serious regard
  - userbinator 5y ago
    Remember what they said about Stallman 20 years ago... Alex Jones is associated with fake news and there is plenty of evidence about that; the same can't be said of Techrights, or at least I didn't find any such claims.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    Please link to the many false statements made by this supposed Alex Jones-alike. Or fail to.
tehbeard 5y ago
If people are going to downvote the other child comment for either FUD or whatever, could they at least provide reading material/counterpoints as to the benefits for those of us without the MSc in cryptographic systems?
- staticassertion 5y ago
  A TPM holds a secret. It's useful for establishing identity, performing signing, etc. Think about the fact that an attacker on your system can take a session cookie, move to another computer, and connect as you. A TPM can prevent this by establishing a cryptographic, hardware backed identity. This is a very significant win and critical to 'zero trust', which is now something the government is telling people to embrace. The whole thing with security is silly. They said it about UEFI - and yet I run Linux on UEFI systems all the time. I also have systems with TPMs that run Linux. Works fine. edit: People are downvoting you now, though I think your question is very reasonable and worth answering. Such is HN, though.
  - tehbeard 5y ago
    ...So my session cookie gets tied to a crypto key that (for all intents and purposes of what I've gleamed from the marketing speak, is burned into the TPM at the factory) is unique? I thought we were trying to get away from identifiable fingerprints? This seems like the most unique one you could get. I'm trying to learn about it, but all google wants to throw up these days is news articles on win11's requirement if it, marketing none-speak about "securing the platform" (which does to a layman, read similar to the other comments cry of lock-in), or dense whitepapers on threat models and cryptographic math.
    - staticassertion 5y ago
      So, first off, the entire point of a session cookie is to uniquely identify you. Like, if you log into a website, it should be you, right? Second, you're close but just a bit off. While the TPM has a secret internally, it wouldn't expose that - it would be used to generate other secrets, or to sign things, basically it's sort of like putting a crypto library into your device so that you can perform cryptographic operations without knowing the secrets involved. But yes, there's a seed that gets soldered into the device itself. I use TPMs to ensure that no one can access our AWS environments from devices other than those we own, for example. I'm not really an expert on this sort of thing, though I do work in security professionally - hopefully I'm not butchering this. There are quite a few experts on the matter who comment on HN though, maybe one of them can speak more authoritatively on this. edit: Actually, I misread maybe - you aren't off. The session cookie is tied to the TPM - either existing within it, or requiring re-validation via the TPM.
gentleman11 5y ago
What if we don’t want to upgrade, but our hardware qualifies? Will we be sneakily forced to upgrade with Ux dark patterns again?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  My understanding is you will be getting it whether you want it or not.
avereveard 5y ago
But why upgrade at all, my gaming PC still has an age old q6600 and it runs absolutely fine paired with a good, recent gpu
- staticassertion 5y ago
  So don't upgrade? You can just not upgrade. Windows 10 is EOL in 2025 at the earliest.
  - michaelmrose 5y ago
    Computers can be in sales channels a long while after they were last made, are kept an average of 6 years and in the case of many machines as much as 12. Intel stopped taking orders for such chips in April 2020 https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/dominic-moass/intel-discontinues-its-7th-gen-kaby-lake-cpus/ https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/dominic-moass/intel-d... presumably you could expect devices to be in use until around 2027 with some sticking around until 2033
    - staticassertion 5y ago
      I don't really get what you're saying, but Windows 10 was released 6 years ago, and they're committing to another 4, so that's a decade of support at minimum.
      - spijdar 5y ago
        Windows 10 has a decade of support but devices that were sold relatively recently will have significantly less time supported. You could have bought a new laptop just 3 or even 2 years ago that will now be effectively obsolete in 4 years. It's basically the Chromebook model, if you think of it -- and kind of radical of Microsoft to go that route when historically they've never really had stringent hardware requirements beyond the ones for OEMs to put those Windows Ready stickers on.
        5y ago
foobar33333 5y ago
This is a typical hacker news comment. Not everyone upgrades their PC every week. I know many people using computers much older than the newest unsupported hardware and they will still be using it after 2025. They just won't be getting security updates I guess.
xfer 5y ago
So now 3 year old hardware won't work on windows 11 which will be the only available option for a lot of people in 4 years. That's 7 years only, a lot of perfectly usable computers will be get rid of for no reason other than mild security benefit. Seems like they want to go in mobile direction forcing people to buy new hardware every 4 years.
- HideousKojima 5y ago
  Just checked and I've been using my CPU for 6 years, and have no immediate need to upgrade
  - userbinator 5y ago
    Over 10 years here (first-generation i7) - and indeed the hardware is more than fast enough for what I need. Then again, I've stayed away from Windows 10 too. Full-time Linux use is looking more and more pleasing...
  - tffgg 5y ago
    I use a more than 10 year old CPU and it runs just fine with Windows 10
- pjmlp 5y ago
  I still remember back when the OS was partially shipped in ROM. You don't turn an Amiga 500 into a 600 by upgrading the OS.
  - orionblastar 5y ago
    the 500 and 600 have different chipsets. The 600 has more expansion options than the 500. Kickstart is in ROM you need 1.3 to play the old Amiga games, and 3.1 for the AmigaOS 3.X stuff.
    - pjmlp 5y ago
      Exactly, because the whole package was the experience, not just some bits shipped in on a floppy.

userbinator 5y ago

"security" that is against the user. Some people knew what was coming 12 years ago... http://techrights.org/2009/04/23/bill-gates-security-as-a-lockin-comes/ http://techrights.org/2009/04/23/bill-gates-security-as-a-lo... http://techrights.org/2009/06/25/security-as-a-lock-in-gates/ http://techrights.org/2009/06/25/security-as-a-lock-in-gates...

dane-pgp 5y ago
You're correct, and the dangers of this redefinition of "security" were known even further back: "Unfortunately, the attestation model in TCG's current design can equally effectively prevent the software on a computer from being changed deliberately by the computer owner with his or her full knowledge and consent. While the owner is always free to alter software, attestation adds a new risk: doing so may now eliminate the computer's ability to interoperate with other computers." https://www.eff.org/files/20031001_tc.pdf https://www.eff.org/files/20031001_tc.pdf
- iggldiggl 5y ago
  Which can already be seen in action on Android: Various apps refuse to work if you're rooted, and Google is now slowly moving over to hardware-based attestation that probably can no longer be easily fooled.
IntelMiner 5y ago
Techrights is the Alex Jones of the Linux world. They are an absolute nutter and should not be held in serious regard
- userbinator 5y ago
  Remember what they said about Stallman 20 years ago... Alex Jones is associated with fake news and there is plenty of evidence about that; the same can't be said of Techrights, or at least I didn't find any such claims.
- Brian_K_White 5y ago
  Please link to the many false statements made by this supposed Alex Jones-alike. Or fail to.

tehbeard 5y ago

If people are going to downvote the other child comment for either FUD or whatever, could they at least provide reading material/counterpoints as to the benefits for those of us without the MSc in cryptographic systems?

staticassertion 5y ago
A TPM holds a secret. It's useful for establishing identity, performing signing, etc. Think about the fact that an attacker on your system can take a session cookie, move to another computer, and connect as you. A TPM can prevent this by establishing a cryptographic, hardware backed identity. This is a very significant win and critical to 'zero trust', which is now something the government is telling people to embrace. The whole thing with security is silly. They said it about UEFI - and yet I run Linux on UEFI systems all the time. I also have systems with TPMs that run Linux. Works fine. edit: People are downvoting you now, though I think your question is very reasonable and worth answering. Such is HN, though.
- tehbeard 5y ago
  ...So my session cookie gets tied to a crypto key that (for all intents and purposes of what I've gleamed from the marketing speak, is burned into the TPM at the factory) is unique? I thought we were trying to get away from identifiable fingerprints? This seems like the most unique one you could get. I'm trying to learn about it, but all google wants to throw up these days is news articles on win11's requirement if it, marketing none-speak about "securing the platform" (which does to a layman, read similar to the other comments cry of lock-in), or dense whitepapers on threat models and cryptographic math.
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    So, first off, the entire point of a session cookie is to uniquely identify you. Like, if you log into a website, it should be you, right? Second, you're close but just a bit off. While the TPM has a secret internally, it wouldn't expose that - it would be used to generate other secrets, or to sign things, basically it's sort of like putting a crypto library into your device so that you can perform cryptographic operations without knowing the secrets involved. But yes, there's a seed that gets soldered into the device itself. I use TPMs to ensure that no one can access our AWS environments from devices other than those we own, for example. I'm not really an expert on this sort of thing, though I do work in security professionally - hopefully I'm not butchering this. There are quite a few experts on the matter who comment on HN though, maybe one of them can speak more authoritatively on this. edit: Actually, I misread maybe - you aren't off. The session cookie is tied to the TPM - either existing within it, or requiring re-validation via the TPM.

gentleman11 5y ago

What if we don’t want to upgrade, but our hardware qualifies? Will we be sneakily forced to upgrade with Ux dark patterns again?

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
tonyedgecombe 5y ago
My understanding is you will be getting it whether you want it or not.

avereveard 5y ago

But why upgrade at all, my gaming PC still has an age old q6600 and it runs absolutely fine paired with a good, recent gpu

staticassertion 5y ago
So don't upgrade? You can just not upgrade. Windows 10 is EOL in 2025 at the earliest.
- michaelmrose 5y ago
  Computers can be in sales channels a long while after they were last made, are kept an average of 6 years and in the case of many machines as much as 12. Intel stopped taking orders for such chips in April 2020 https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/dominic-moass/intel-discontinues-its-7th-gen-kaby-lake-cpus/ https://www.kitguru.net/components/cpu/dominic-moass/intel-d... presumably you could expect devices to be in use until around 2027 with some sticking around until 2033
  - staticassertion 5y ago
    I don't really get what you're saying, but Windows 10 was released 6 years ago, and they're committing to another 4, so that's a decade of support at minimum.
    - spijdar 5y ago
      Windows 10 has a decade of support but devices that were sold relatively recently will have significantly less time supported. You could have bought a new laptop just 3 or even 2 years ago that will now be effectively obsolete in 4 years. It's basically the Chromebook model, if you think of it -- and kind of radical of Microsoft to go that route when historically they've never really had stringent hardware requirements beyond the ones for OEMs to put those Windows Ready stickers on.
      - 5y ago

foobar33333 5y ago

This is a typical hacker news comment. Not everyone upgrades their PC every week. I know many people using computers much older than the newest unsupported hardware and they will still be using it after 2025. They just won't be getting security updates I guess.

xfer 5y ago

So now 3 year old hardware won't work on windows 11 which will be the only available option for a lot of people in 4 years. That's 7 years only, a lot of perfectly usable computers will be get rid of for no reason other than mild security benefit. Seems like they want to go in mobile direction forcing people to buy new hardware every 4 years.

HideousKojima 5y ago
Just checked and I've been using my CPU for 6 years, and have no immediate need to upgrade
- userbinator 5y ago
  Over 10 years here (first-generation i7) - and indeed the hardware is more than fast enough for what I need. Then again, I've stayed away from Windows 10 too. Full-time Linux use is looking more and more pleasing...
- tffgg 5y ago
  I use a more than 10 year old CPU and it runs just fine with Windows 10
pjmlp 5y ago
I still remember back when the OS was partially shipped in ROM. You don't turn an Amiga 500 into a 600 by upgrading the OS.
- orionblastar 5y ago
  the 500 and 600 have different chipsets. The 600 has more expansion options than the 500. Kickstart is in ROM you need 1.3 to play the old Amiga games, and 3.1 for the AmigaOS 3.X stuff.
  - pjmlp 5y ago
    Exactly, because the whole package was the experience, not just some bits shipped in on a floppy.