19 ms·

As an American Jew who grew up with a distorted and racist world view in regard to Palestine this just feels like history repeating itself. The troubles that fa

by werber 5y ago

As an American Jew who grew up with a distorted and racist world view in regard to Palestine this just feels like history repeating itself. The troubles that face Israelis have always been amplified over those of Palestinians in my experience. That control of the narrative led me to be actively racist for most of my life while thinking I was not and also morally superior. This kind of censorship has a body count, and it lets war crimes happen in clear view while the on lookers think they are doing the right thing.

DoctorNick 5y ago
Americans are more prone to this kind of thing because they're already used to overriding settler-colonial propaganda influencing their mindset; Zionist propaganda is just another flavor.
- slipframe 5y ago
  Lots of countries have similar sorts of histories I think; while I'm sure what you say is part of the equation, I think it doesn't fully explain why Americans are much more likely to support Israel than people in other countries (for instance, Australia.) I think another piece of this puzzle is the popularity of Evangelical Christianity in America, particularly Christian Zionism and the belief that the state of Israel is a necessary precondition for the return of their Messiah. That's the sort of rhetoric I was raised with anyway.
  - Bayart 5y ago
    It's rooted in British Israelism [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism
    - joecool1029 5y ago
      That's an absolutely wild read. I've never heard of this before today, thanks.
- xupybd 5y ago
  It is hard to say Israel has less right to the land it took over than say New Zealand. The main difference is how long ago the settling happened.
  - 2939223 5y ago
    Except Pakeha aren't carpet-bombing Maori in droves.
  - DoctorNick 5y ago
    Yes, that's correct.
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    New Zealand is a bad example to use, given that it's one of the few cases where settlement was based on a non-coerced treaty intended to actively integrate the native people as equal citizens with the settlers. While the NZ government later spent about a hundred years ignoring the treaty and treating the Maori badly, the treaty itself, the process that led to it, and the actions of the settler leaders at the time of its signing had a legitimacy that most other cases of colonization and settlement (including that of Israel) have generally lacked.
    - refurb 5y ago
      Israel has a lack of legitimacy? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Pla...
  - let_me_ask_this 5y ago
    In that case Israel should follow New Zealand's example and allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews, stop with the racism and start behaving like the progressive country they pretend to be.
    - 2939223 5y ago
      Such behaviour conflicts with a core tenet of Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people
- rayiner 5y ago
  That’s a hilarious assertion. One of the things we found puzzling when we moved here was why Americans spent so much time in school studying all the bad things the country did. Totally bizarre to us, coming from Asia.
  - istjohn 5y ago
    Why wouldn't we want to learn from our mistakes? Ignoring past mistakes is a recipe to repeat them. German students are taught about the Holocaust for the same reason.
    - rayiner 5y ago
      I’m making a different point. The idea that Americans whitewash their history is absurd compared how kids are educated in nearly the whole rest of the world.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    Which bad things should we stop studying in school?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - refurb 5y ago
    I don’t have any issues with teaching about American history and things that were done that were wrong (in hindsight or at the time). But what you might be referring to is this bizarre self-flagellation that has grown in popularity which focuses exclusively on the errors and ignores any of the good things about America. My personal opinion is it’s because the people doing it want to remake America - throw away the old and create a “more just” society (obviously following their politics). If you can use this self-criticism to destroy the foundation of America (through association) you can get rid of those pesky ideals preventing you from transforming society. Things like individual freedom, personal responsibility, inalienable rights, judging the individuals by their own actions and not the sins of their ancestors, etc.
- LarryEt 5y ago
  Do you not realize how dumb this makes you sound?
  - dang 5y ago
    Hacker News is for a different sort of discussion than this, as the site guidelines make clear: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You can't break them like this, regardless of how dumb something sounds or you feel it sounds. We ban accounts that do that, and since you've already done this at least once elsewhere (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27642465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27642465) I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
- jdjdbxbfn 5y ago
  Jews and christians were there before Islam even existed and Arabs invade. Talking about propaganda, indeed the craziest of the world is Pallywood because it's so blunt, using takkia like this will give good points to go to heaven faster. I'm from Algeria so I could go on all day long and even complain about the Arabs of FLN who stripped my grand parents from their lands. But instead, I'd rather complain about how silly a lot of people are, eating pallywood propaganda without a single doubt, I mean, it's not like this article was showing the posts in question at all, the mere partial description they made of it are tailored to correspond the propaganda, really is there someone to believe that using the word "resist" online is enough to get an Israeli arrest? > I will not succumb to the “peaceful solution,” Yeah, maybe they were arrested for incitation because of the part that was before the "resist" line pointed by this article. So that's some nice takkia right there, all this to get some good points, and y'all fall for it like school kids, that's so cute!
TX0098812 5y ago
Maybe I just have the same distorted perspective... but isn't Palestine still denying Israels right to exist? There seems to be a major campaign right now by Palestinians and their supporters (and other people who don't like Jews which strongly correlates with Israelis) to portray them only as innocent victims, but that seems disingenuous if, assuming it's correct, wiping out Israel is still policy. Edit: Oh the irony, I've been both downvoted and flagged. Something something blackout. Hypocrites.
rayiner 5y ago
As an American who moved here from a Muslim country let me assure you Muslims are socialized to feel the same way about Jews. Took me a long time to see it. In high school I obviously supported Palestine and thought Israel was a settler colony (all of it, not just Gaza). Then I realized: wait why do I even care? I’m from 3,000 miles away in Bangladesh. In Bangladesh, people don’t even care about Bangladeshis being held in near-slavery conditions in Qatar. (More Bangladeshi workers have died in the Middle East since 2010 than Palestinians killed in the conflict with Israel since 1947.) They don’t care about the Rohingya. They don’t care what Saudi is doing in Yemen. They’re very friendly with China and don’t care about Uighurs. But everyone has an opinion on how Israel is oppressing Palestine.
- xupybd 5y ago
  This is what war has done in almost every conflict. The enemy is a monster so attacking the monster justifies far too much.
  - drran 5y ago
    (Non-native English speaker) It can be in two kinds: a) they are DOING something bad: attacking, occupying, oppressing, blocking, so we need to stop them, kick them out, liberate from their oppression, break their block, etc. b) they ARE (Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., or a nation, or a group), and they are bad because (list of historical or invented reasons), so we need to kill or enslave them or force assimilation of them. For example, recent Russian-Ukrainian war, from Russian side: * Ukrainians are bad, because they are Nazi. Reasons: Ukraine is Nazi country because it is independent Nation, which is bad for Russian Empire/Soviet Union/Russian Federation. Thus: kill Ukrainians, close Ukrainian schools, magazines, sites, TV and radio stations, force Ukrainians to abandon Ukrainian culture. * Ukrainian are oppressing Ukrainians, speaking in Russish. Reasons: nobody will speak in dumb Ukrainian language at their own will, when they can use Great and Mighty Russish Tongue (Великий и Могучий Русский Язык), so, obviously, Ukrainians are forcing Ukrainians to speak in Ukrainian language, AKA «forceful ukrainization»/«насильственная украинизация» (and Ukrainian language is dumb, obviously, because it causes laugh, when a Russish hear it). Thus: invade Eastern Ukraine to protect Russissh-speaking Ukrainians from forceful ukrainization (direct speech: «защитить русско-язычных жителей Юго-Востока Украины от насильственной украинизации»). From Ukrainian side: * Russians are invading Ukraine. Reasons: they want to destroy Ukrainian nation and make it part of Russian Empire/Soviet Union/Russian Federation. Thus: Ukraine must stop invasion.
hoka-one-one 5y ago
Jews are not white so by definition they can't be racist. Racism has to do with systemic power structures. Most of the problems in the middle east have been caused by white colonialism. What's going on between Jews and Palestinians is warfare that sometimes gets out of hand. That's distinct from racism.
- dang 5y ago
  We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. Please don't create accounts to troll HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
Ozzie_osman 5y ago
The sad part is that you can get called an anti-Semite (or self-hating Jew) for expressing any sort of solidarity with Palestinians. The sadder part is that actual anti-Semites then jump in and use that situation to further their agenda.
- tartoran 5y ago
  Yes, labels are prepared for any type of criticism. The sad part is that there is some genuine anti-semitism out there (same is true for racism) and lumping this acusation with any criticism will weaken a real cause (again, same is true for racism).
- tinyhouse 5y ago
  The sad part is that many American jews are so worried about their image that they will automatically go against Israel no matter what.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Who? When? That's a baseless, slanderous attack, usually used to silence Jewish people (and others too, I'm sure) saying unpopular things.
    - tinyhouse 5y ago
      Check how many US based Jews are part of anti Israel organizations such as BDS compared to other organizations that are anti other countries. Why? because they care more about the image of Israel in the world than the image of Iran or China for example. Even though they don't live in Israel and are not Israelis. That's because non-Jews often put Israelis and Jews in the same bucket, due to ignorance and/or racism. Similar to how many people put all Arabs/Muslims together.
- werber 5y ago
  I’ve been ostracized by my family, which I think is much worse.
coryrc 5y ago
How many more wars do they need to start and lose before leaving Israel alone? The USA would flatten Tijuana in a hot minute if they were throwing rockets into San Diego and the Mexican military wasn't stopping them. Additionally, democracy doesn't always work. Two wolves and a lamb voting for dinner isn't fair or right.
bkirkby 5y ago
Can you share with us the most egregious example of a war crime committed by Israel that caused you to change your view? Please be specific about the laws, actions, and outcomes that resulted in the crime.
- random314 5y ago
  Apartheid is sufficient.
  - Papirola 5y ago
    [citation needed] there's an Arab party in the Israeli government _as_we_speak_.
    - random314 5y ago
      You got me!
- werber 5y ago
  Most recently, bombing the offices of multiple news outlets during a conflict comes to mind. But what made me change my mind was actively seeking out Palestinians to talk to one on one after a close friend told me I was racist. This isn’t particularly profound or anything, but a now very close friend of mine talked to me about how she could barely see her family in Palestine and that I could get a free trip and citizenship with no connection to the land because I was Jewish. That seemed so completely bonkers to me and still does.
  - poisonarena 5y ago
    How do you feel about Gaza launching 4000+ rockets at Israeli population centers indiscriminately ?
    - user982 5y ago
      Clearly the Gazans need missile guidance systems to get their kill count down to Israel's levels.
YZF 5y ago
How do we measure this sort of amplification objectively? How do we account for context? I would say that it's exactly the opposite, that through most of the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict (of which the Palestinian issue has been a sub-conflict) the Arab voice has been amplified over the Israeli. Israel has faced many boycotts, many attempts to destroy it, and generally as less than favorable in world public opinion. It is maybe true that there's been a little shift with the collapse of the soviet union and the split in the Arab world. I would still say that Israel gets more negative coverage in comparison to other world events and even within the specific conflict. Just a recent example, at some point during the Covid crisis Israel was extensively criticized for not treating Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza equitably with regard to vaccine distribution. Nobody even mentions that Israeli Palestinians are treated equitably in this regard. Nuances are lost. Recently when Israel did agree to provide Palestinians with vaccines the Palestinians rejected them: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-covid-19-vaccines-rejected-by-palestinians-were-safe-2021-06-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-covid-... EDIT: And forgot to add my point, that this did not receive as wide of a coverage. Lack of "censorship" also has a body count. What about all the Covid conspiracy theories? Should we give those guys a free stage on social media? Incitement to commit real violence is also common in social platforms. To give an example from the "other" side some mobs that gathered to attack Israeli Arabs during the last conflicts organized on social media. Would you be critical if those voices were suppressed? I can be really critical of Israel for many things. But I'm really not buying that the balance is set the wrong way. Keep in mind a lot of us are consuming the kind of news that amplifies our world views anyways. Which brings me back to how do we measure this in a controlled way?
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > through most of the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict (of which the Palestinian issue has been a sub-conflict) the Arab voice has been amplified over the Israeli There is absolutely no question that Israel has more support in the West. The US doesn't give billions a year in military support to the Palestinians or Arabs - except Egypt, when signed a treaty not to attack Israel. The head of the Palestinians doesn't give speeches to join sessions of Congress. Yes, Israel gets criticized (as does everyone), and they do a lot of shit; it's laughable to portray Israel as a victim - and an old rhetorical tactic to claim victimhood when you do something wrong and take heat for it.
wolverine876 5y ago
Note that the Israeli right-wing's biggest supporters in the US are Christian Evangelicals, not Jews. Most Jewish Americans vote Democrat and are liberal. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=evangelical+support+for+israel+site%3Anytimes.com&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=evangelical+support+for+israel+sit...
- throwaway2048 5y ago
  American democrats and liberals strongly support israel too.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Yes, but they don't support the Israeli right wing, as specified in the GP.
poisonarena 5y ago
As an Israeli who lives in the Southern part of Israel, and who lived here during the Second Intifada, I think you would change your mind if you walked a mile in my shoes. I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been absorbed by social justice movements in the USA and people apply it to the BLM movement. It just does not fit the same narrative no badly how much Americans and Europeans want it to, but it is terribly convenient to pretend and act as though it is.
- mslm 5y ago
  If you sincerely walked a mile in the Palestinian side of your shoes, you would say the complete opposite.
realYitzi 5y ago
> As an American Jew... The troubles that face Israelis have always been amplified over those of Palestinians in my experience. As an American Jew, what experience do you have of the troubles that face Israelis or Palestinians?
jdjdbxbfn 5y ago
Good step, but keep in mind you will have to stay in repentance all your life.
pizzazzaro 5y ago
https://youtu.be/MxL0mLXV604 https://youtu.be/MxL0mLXV604 Please spread word to report the app "Act.IL" on all phone app stores
saargrin 5y ago
as an israeli jew that gets shouted down and banned from every platform where a pro-palestinian opinion is present, i can tell you i can easily assemble similiar facts about the "erasure" of Israeli opinion while violent anti-semitic and ofter plain murderous opinions stay online (especially if you consider arabic language media)

by werber 5y ago

DoctorNick 5y ago

Americans are more prone to this kind of thing because they're already used to overriding settler-colonial propaganda influencing their mindset; Zionist propaganda is just another flavor.

slipframe 5y ago
Lots of countries have similar sorts of histories I think; while I'm sure what you say is part of the equation, I think it doesn't fully explain why Americans are much more likely to support Israel than people in other countries (for instance, Australia.) I think another piece of this puzzle is the popularity of Evangelical Christianity in America, particularly Christian Zionism and the belief that the state of Israel is a necessary precondition for the return of their Messiah. That's the sort of rhetoric I was raised with anyway.
- Bayart 5y ago
  It's rooted in British Israelism [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Israelism
  - joecool1029 5y ago
    That's an absolutely wild read. I've never heard of this before today, thanks.
xupybd 5y ago
It is hard to say Israel has less right to the land it took over than say New Zealand. The main difference is how long ago the settling happened.
- 2939223 5y ago
  Except Pakeha aren't carpet-bombing Maori in droves.
- DoctorNick 5y ago
  Yes, that's correct.
- crooked-v 5y ago
  New Zealand is a bad example to use, given that it's one of the few cases where settlement was based on a non-coerced treaty intended to actively integrate the native people as equal citizens with the settlers. While the NZ government later spent about a hundred years ignoring the treaty and treating the Maori badly, the treaty itself, the process that led to it, and the actions of the settler leaders at the time of its signing had a legitimacy that most other cases of colonization and settlement (including that of Israel) have generally lacked.
  - refurb 5y ago
    Israel has a lack of legitimacy? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Pla...
- let_me_ask_this 5y ago
  In that case Israel should follow New Zealand's example and allow all Palestinians to become citizens, with full rights, stop being an ethnostate for Jews, stop with the racism and start behaving like the progressive country they pretend to be.
  - 2939223 5y ago
    Such behaviour conflicts with a core tenet of Judaism: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews_as_the_chosen_people
rayiner 5y ago
That’s a hilarious assertion. One of the things we found puzzling when we moved here was why Americans spent so much time in school studying all the bad things the country did. Totally bizarre to us, coming from Asia.
- istjohn 5y ago
  Why wouldn't we want to learn from our mistakes? Ignoring past mistakes is a recipe to repeat them. German students are taught about the Holocaust for the same reason.
  - rayiner 5y ago
    I’m making a different point. The idea that Americans whitewash their history is absurd compared how kids are educated in nearly the whole rest of the world.
- tptacek 5y ago
  Which bad things should we stop studying in school?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- refurb 5y ago
  I don’t have any issues with teaching about American history and things that were done that were wrong (in hindsight or at the time). But what you might be referring to is this bizarre self-flagellation that has grown in popularity which focuses exclusively on the errors and ignores any of the good things about America. My personal opinion is it’s because the people doing it want to remake America - throw away the old and create a “more just” society (obviously following their politics). If you can use this self-criticism to destroy the foundation of America (through association) you can get rid of those pesky ideals preventing you from transforming society. Things like individual freedom, personal responsibility, inalienable rights, judging the individuals by their own actions and not the sins of their ancestors, etc.
LarryEt 5y ago
Do you not realize how dumb this makes you sound?
- dang 5y ago
  Hacker News is for a different sort of discussion than this, as the site guidelines make clear: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html. You can't break them like this, regardless of how dumb something sounds or you feel it sounds. We ban accounts that do that, and since you've already done this at least once elsewhere (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27642465 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27642465) I've banned this account. If you don't want to be banned on HN, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
jdjdbxbfn 5y ago
Jews and christians were there before Islam even existed and Arabs invade. Talking about propaganda, indeed the craziest of the world is Pallywood because it's so blunt, using takkia like this will give good points to go to heaven faster. I'm from Algeria so I could go on all day long and even complain about the Arabs of FLN who stripped my grand parents from their lands. But instead, I'd rather complain about how silly a lot of people are, eating pallywood propaganda without a single doubt, I mean, it's not like this article was showing the posts in question at all, the mere partial description they made of it are tailored to correspond the propaganda, really is there someone to believe that using the word "resist" online is enough to get an Israeli arrest? > I will not succumb to the “peaceful solution,” Yeah, maybe they were arrested for incitation because of the part that was before the "resist" line pointed by this article. So that's some nice takkia right there, all this to get some good points, and y'all fall for it like school kids, that's so cute!

TX0098812 5y ago

Maybe I just have the same distorted perspective... but isn't Palestine still denying Israels right to exist? There seems to be a major campaign right now by Palestinians and their supporters (and other people who don't like Jews which strongly correlates with Israelis) to portray them only as innocent victims, but that seems disingenuous if, assuming it's correct, wiping out Israel is still policy. Edit: Oh the irony, I've been both downvoted and flagged. Something something blackout. Hypocrites.

rayiner 5y ago

As an American who moved here from a Muslim country let me assure you Muslims are socialized to feel the same way about Jews. Took me a long time to see it. In high school I obviously supported Palestine and thought Israel was a settler colony (all of it, not just Gaza). Then I realized: wait why do I even care? I’m from 3,000 miles away in Bangladesh. In Bangladesh, people don’t even care about Bangladeshis being held in near-slavery conditions in Qatar. (More Bangladeshi workers have died in the Middle East since 2010 than Palestinians killed in the conflict with Israel since 1947.) They don’t care about the Rohingya. They don’t care what Saudi is doing in Yemen. They’re very friendly with China and don’t care about Uighurs. But everyone has an opinion on how Israel is oppressing Palestine.

xupybd 5y ago
This is what war has done in almost every conflict. The enemy is a monster so attacking the monster justifies far too much.
- drran 5y ago
  (Non-native English speaker) It can be in two kinds: a) they are DOING something bad: attacking, occupying, oppressing, blocking, so we need to stop them, kick them out, liberate from their oppression, break their block, etc. b) they ARE (Jews, Christians, Muslims, etc., or a nation, or a group), and they are bad because (list of historical or invented reasons), so we need to kill or enslave them or force assimilation of them. For example, recent Russian-Ukrainian war, from Russian side: * Ukrainians are bad, because they are Nazi. Reasons: Ukraine is Nazi country because it is independent Nation, which is bad for Russian Empire/Soviet Union/Russian Federation. Thus: kill Ukrainians, close Ukrainian schools, magazines, sites, TV and radio stations, force Ukrainians to abandon Ukrainian culture. * Ukrainian are oppressing Ukrainians, speaking in Russish. Reasons: nobody will speak in dumb Ukrainian language at their own will, when they can use Great and Mighty Russish Tongue (Великий и Могучий Русский Язык), so, obviously, Ukrainians are forcing Ukrainians to speak in Ukrainian language, AKA «forceful ukrainization»/«насильственная украинизация» (and Ukrainian language is dumb, obviously, because it causes laugh, when a Russish hear it). Thus: invade Eastern Ukraine to protect Russissh-speaking Ukrainians from forceful ukrainization (direct speech: «защитить русско-язычных жителей Юго-Востока Украины от насильственной украинизации»). From Ukrainian side: * Russians are invading Ukraine. Reasons: they want to destroy Ukrainian nation and make it part of Russian Empire/Soviet Union/Russian Federation. Thus: Ukraine must stop invasion.

hoka-one-one 5y ago

Jews are not white so by definition they can't be racist. Racism has to do with systemic power structures. Most of the problems in the middle east have been caused by white colonialism. What's going on between Jews and Palestinians is warfare that sometimes gets out of hand. That's distinct from racism.

dang 5y ago
We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. Please don't create accounts to troll HN. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

Ozzie_osman 5y ago

The sad part is that you can get called an anti-Semite (or self-hating Jew) for expressing any sort of solidarity with Palestinians. The sadder part is that actual anti-Semites then jump in and use that situation to further their agenda.

tartoran 5y ago
Yes, labels are prepared for any type of criticism. The sad part is that there is some genuine anti-semitism out there (same is true for racism) and lumping this acusation with any criticism will weaken a real cause (again, same is true for racism).
tinyhouse 5y ago
The sad part is that many American jews are so worried about their image that they will automatically go against Israel no matter what.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Who? When? That's a baseless, slanderous attack, usually used to silence Jewish people (and others too, I'm sure) saying unpopular things.
  - tinyhouse 5y ago
    Check how many US based Jews are part of anti Israel organizations such as BDS compared to other organizations that are anti other countries. Why? because they care more about the image of Israel in the world than the image of Iran or China for example. Even though they don't live in Israel and are not Israelis. That's because non-Jews often put Israelis and Jews in the same bucket, due to ignorance and/or racism. Similar to how many people put all Arabs/Muslims together.
werber 5y ago
I’ve been ostracized by my family, which I think is much worse.

coryrc 5y ago

How many more wars do they need to start and lose before leaving Israel alone? The USA would flatten Tijuana in a hot minute if they were throwing rockets into San Diego and the Mexican military wasn't stopping them. Additionally, democracy doesn't always work. Two wolves and a lamb voting for dinner isn't fair or right.

bkirkby 5y ago

Can you share with us the most egregious example of a war crime committed by Israel that caused you to change your view? Please be specific about the laws, actions, and outcomes that resulted in the crime.

random314 5y ago
Apartheid is sufficient.
- Papirola 5y ago
  [citation needed] there's an Arab party in the Israeli government _as_we_speak_.
  - random314 5y ago
    You got me!
werber 5y ago
Most recently, bombing the offices of multiple news outlets during a conflict comes to mind. But what made me change my mind was actively seeking out Palestinians to talk to one on one after a close friend told me I was racist. This isn’t particularly profound or anything, but a now very close friend of mine talked to me about how she could barely see her family in Palestine and that I could get a free trip and citizenship with no connection to the land because I was Jewish. That seemed so completely bonkers to me and still does.
- poisonarena 5y ago
  How do you feel about Gaza launching 4000+ rockets at Israeli population centers indiscriminately ?
  - user982 5y ago
    Clearly the Gazans need missile guidance systems to get their kill count down to Israel's levels.

YZF 5y ago

How do we measure this sort of amplification objectively? How do we account for context? I would say that it's exactly the opposite, that through most of the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict (of which the Palestinian issue has been a sub-conflict) the Arab voice has been amplified over the Israeli. Israel has faced many boycotts, many attempts to destroy it, and generally as less than favorable in world public opinion. It is maybe true that there's been a little shift with the collapse of the soviet union and the split in the Arab world. I would still say that Israel gets more negative coverage in comparison to other world events and even within the specific conflict. Just a recent example, at some point during the Covid crisis Israel was extensively criticized for not treating Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza equitably with regard to vaccine distribution. Nobody even mentions that Israeli Palestinians are treated equitably in this regard. Nuances are lost. Recently when Israel did agree to provide Palestinians with vaccines the Palestinians rejected them: https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-covid-19-vaccines-rejected-by-palestinians-were-safe-2021-06-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israel-says-covid-... EDIT: And forgot to add my point, that this did not receive as wide of a coverage. Lack of "censorship" also has a body count. What about all the Covid conspiracy theories? Should we give those guys a free stage on social media? Incitement to commit real violence is also common in social platforms. To give an example from the "other" side some mobs that gathered to attack Israeli Arabs during the last conflicts organized on social media. Would you be critical if those voices were suppressed? I can be really critical of Israel for many things. But I'm really not buying that the balance is set the wrong way. Keep in mind a lot of us are consuming the kind of news that amplifies our world views anyways. Which brings me back to how do we measure this in a controlled way?

wolverine876 5y ago
> through most of the history of the Arab-Israeli conflict (of which the Palestinian issue has been a sub-conflict) the Arab voice has been amplified over the Israeli There is absolutely no question that Israel has more support in the West. The US doesn't give billions a year in military support to the Palestinians or Arabs - except Egypt, when signed a treaty not to attack Israel. The head of the Palestinians doesn't give speeches to join sessions of Congress. Yes, Israel gets criticized (as does everyone), and they do a lot of shit; it's laughable to portray Israel as a victim - and an old rhetorical tactic to claim victimhood when you do something wrong and take heat for it.

wolverine876 5y ago

Note that the Israeli right-wing's biggest supporters in the US are Christian Evangelicals, not Jews. Most Jewish Americans vote Democrat and are liberal. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=evangelical+support+for+israel+site%3Anytimes.com&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=evangelical+support+for+israel+sit...

throwaway2048 5y ago
American democrats and liberals strongly support israel too.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  Yes, but they don't support the Israeli right wing, as specified in the GP.

poisonarena 5y ago

As an Israeli who lives in the Southern part of Israel, and who lived here during the Second Intifada, I think you would change your mind if you walked a mile in my shoes. I think the Israeli-Palestinian conflict has been absorbed by social justice movements in the USA and people apply it to the BLM movement. It just does not fit the same narrative no badly how much Americans and Europeans want it to, but it is terribly convenient to pretend and act as though it is.

mslm 5y ago
If you sincerely walked a mile in the Palestinian side of your shoes, you would say the complete opposite.

realYitzi 5y ago

> As an American Jew... The troubles that face Israelis have always been amplified over those of Palestinians in my experience. As an American Jew, what experience do you have of the troubles that face Israelis or Palestinians?

jdjdbxbfn 5y ago

Good step, but keep in mind you will have to stay in repentance all your life.

pizzazzaro 5y ago

https://youtu.be/MxL0mLXV604 https://youtu.be/MxL0mLXV604 Please spread word to report the app "Act.IL" on all phone app stores

saargrin 5y ago

as an israeli jew that gets shouted down and banned from every platform where a pro-palestinian opinion is present, i can tell you i can easily assemble similiar facts about the "erasure" of Israeli opinion while violent anti-semitic and ofter plain murderous opinions stay online (especially if you consider arabic language media)