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Suicide attempts have always been way more frequent among women/girls, whereas men/boys actually commit suicide more often. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gende

by float4 5y ago

Suicide attempts have always been way more frequent among women/girls, whereas men/boys actually commit suicide more often. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_differences_in_suicide

supergirl 5y ago
Yeah, I was thinking about this. probably the definition of "suicide attempt" is too broad then.
- slipframe 5y ago
  How do you come to that conclusion? The CDC data is tracking the number of hospitalizations. If the suicide attempt results in a hospitalization, that sounds pretty serious to me.
  - GavinMcG 5y ago
    Hospitalization is generally mandated for any expression of an immediate intent to kill one's self, even if there isn't an attempt at all. So there is a line-drawing problem; if someone says they tried to kill themselves even if what they tried obviously wouldn't work (e.g. surface-level cuts away from blood vessels) their attempt could "result in hospitalization" even though hospitalization would have theoretically resulted even if no attempt had been made.
    - slipframe 5y ago
      This still doesn't sound like an overly broad definition of suicide-attempt to me. Somebody saying they want to die and giving themselves minor cuts seems like a pretty serious situation. Unless the supposition is that boys don't get hospitalized when they do the same sort of thing, number of hospitalizations sounds like a robust metric.
      - GavinMcG 5y ago
        It is serious. Just pointing out a way that someone could think there's room for narrowing the definition. Obviously any suicidal ideation may need help; categories that aren't totally clear can just make it harder to decide what sorts of resources and interventions to prioritize on a systems level.
  - supergirl 5y ago
    how else to explain the fact that number of attempts is higher for women yet number of suicides is lower? it means number of attempts can't predict number of suicides, so it is counting something unrelated.
    - slipframe 5y ago
      It's counting suicide attempts, not suicides. Obviously one rate does not predict the other, but does that mean suicide attempts aren't worth tracking? I don't think so. And I don't know how to explain the discrepancy, but that's what the data says. Being unable to explain the data doesn't mean the data is wrong.
  - zepto 5y ago
    Serious is not the same as fatal. People who aren’t being listened to sometimes take an overdose as a cry for help, expecting to be found. They still go to hospital. That is quite different from shooting yourself in the head.
    - slipframe 5y ago
      We're talking about suicide attempts right? So yes, not fatal, obviously.
      - zepto 5y ago
        No - the context from upthread is this: > Suicide attempts have always been way more frequent among women/girls, whereas men/boys actually commit suicide more often.
        slipframe 5y ago
        Sure... but I was responding to the assertion that the discrepancy in suicide attempts comes from suicide attempts being over-counted. I don't think that holds water.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        If you're expecting to be found, it's arguable how much that counts as a suicide attempt.
        zepto 5y ago
        It shouldn’t, but it does because hospitals only see an overdose and don’t have access to the patients prior beliefs.
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
This is actually a myth. The data for suicide statistics have been polluted in in some rather peculiar ways. Hospitalizations for any self-harm-related injury, no matter how obviously sublethal, are categorized as suicide attempts. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/82-003-x/2001002/article/6060-eng.pdf?st=hGT4w_AQ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/82-003-x/2001002/arti... (pdf) >Hospitalizations related to suicide attempts were defined as the presence of ICD-9 codes E950 to E959 in the first accident code for a patient discharged alive. This ICD-9 category includes injuries resulting from attempted suicide, as well as self-inflicted injuries specified as intentional, but without suicidal intent. So that will deceptively inflate the statistics for whichever gender self harms more frequently... which turns out to be girls and women. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25795294 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25795294 >The goal of the current study was to use meta-analytic techniques to better conceptualize the presence and size of gender differences in the prevalence of NSSI (non-suicidal self injury) The results showed that across studies women were significantly more likely to report a history of NSSI than men. This next study tries to investigate that issue by breaking down "suicide attempts" by degree of actual suicidal intent. They devised a spectrum ranging from deliberate self harm to suicidal gestures to serious attempts to end one's life. Surprise surprise, the self-harm end of that spectrum is more populated by females and the serious-attempt end is more populated by males. >*A significant association between suicide intent and gender was found, where ‘Serious Suicide Attempts’ (SSA) were rated significantly more frequently in males than females.* There is also an undercounting of men who attempt suicide by hospital staff. A recent Australian study showed that the number of men attempting suicide was much greater based on reports of first responders compared to hospital staff, but the latter being the current source of statistics. https://www.beyondblue.org.au/media/news/news/2019/05/28/suicide-figures-are-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-new-research https://www.beyondblue.org.au/media/news/news/2019/05/28/sui...
- float4 5y ago
  Thanks for commenting; interesting sources.

by float4 5y ago

supergirl 5y ago

Yeah, I was thinking about this. probably the definition of "suicide attempt" is too broad then.

slipframe 5y ago
How do you come to that conclusion? The CDC data is tracking the number of hospitalizations. If the suicide attempt results in a hospitalization, that sounds pretty serious to me.
- GavinMcG 5y ago
  Hospitalization is generally mandated for any expression of an immediate intent to kill one's self, even if there isn't an attempt at all. So there is a line-drawing problem; if someone says they tried to kill themselves even if what they tried obviously wouldn't work (e.g. surface-level cuts away from blood vessels) their attempt could "result in hospitalization" even though hospitalization would have theoretically resulted even if no attempt had been made.
  - slipframe 5y ago
    This still doesn't sound like an overly broad definition of suicide-attempt to me. Somebody saying they want to die and giving themselves minor cuts seems like a pretty serious situation. Unless the supposition is that boys don't get hospitalized when they do the same sort of thing, number of hospitalizations sounds like a robust metric.
    - GavinMcG 5y ago
      It is serious. Just pointing out a way that someone could think there's room for narrowing the definition. Obviously any suicidal ideation may need help; categories that aren't totally clear can just make it harder to decide what sorts of resources and interventions to prioritize on a systems level.
- supergirl 5y ago
  how else to explain the fact that number of attempts is higher for women yet number of suicides is lower? it means number of attempts can't predict number of suicides, so it is counting something unrelated.
  - slipframe 5y ago
    It's counting suicide attempts, not suicides. Obviously one rate does not predict the other, but does that mean suicide attempts aren't worth tracking? I don't think so. And I don't know how to explain the discrepancy, but that's what the data says. Being unable to explain the data doesn't mean the data is wrong.
- zepto 5y ago
  Serious is not the same as fatal. People who aren’t being listened to sometimes take an overdose as a cry for help, expecting to be found. They still go to hospital. That is quite different from shooting yourself in the head.
  - slipframe 5y ago
    We're talking about suicide attempts right? So yes, not fatal, obviously.
    - zepto 5y ago
      No - the context from upthread is this: > Suicide attempts have always been way more frequent among women/girls, whereas men/boys actually commit suicide more often.
      - slipframe 5y ago
        Sure... but I was responding to the assertion that the discrepancy in suicide attempts comes from suicide attempts being over-counted. I don't think that holds water.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      If you're expecting to be found, it's arguable how much that counts as a suicide attempt.
      - zepto 5y ago
        It shouldn’t, but it does because hospitals only see an overdose and don’t have access to the patients prior beliefs.

NaturalPhallacy 5y ago

This is actually a myth. The data for suicide statistics have been polluted in in some rather peculiar ways. Hospitalizations for any self-harm-related injury, no matter how obviously sublethal, are categorized as suicide attempts. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/82-003-x/2001002/article/6060-eng.pdf?st=hGT4w_AQ https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/en/pub/82-003-x/2001002/arti... (pdf) >Hospitalizations related to suicide attempts were defined as the presence of ICD-9 codes E950 to E959 in the first accident code for a patient discharged alive. This ICD-9 category includes injuries resulting from attempted suicide, as well as self-inflicted injuries specified as intentional, but without suicidal intent. So that will deceptively inflate the statistics for whichever gender self harms more frequently... which turns out to be girls and women. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25795294 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25795294 >The goal of the current study was to use meta-analytic techniques to better conceptualize the presence and size of gender differences in the prevalence of NSSI (non-suicidal self injury) The results showed that across studies women were significantly more likely to report a history of NSSI than men. This next study tries to investigate that issue by breaking down "suicide attempts" by degree of actual suicidal intent. They devised a spectrum ranging from deliberate self harm to suicidal gestures to serious attempts to end one's life. Surprise surprise, the self-harm end of that spectrum is more populated by females and the serious-attempt end is more populated by males. >*A significant association between suicide intent and gender was found, where ‘Serious Suicide Attempts’ (SSA) were rated significantly more frequently in males than females.* There is also an undercounting of men who attempt suicide by hospital staff. A recent Australian study showed that the number of men attempting suicide was much greater based on reports of first responders compared to hospital staff, but the latter being the current source of statistics. https://www.beyondblue.org.au/media/news/news/2019/05/28/suicide-figures-are-the-tip-of-the-iceberg-new-research https://www.beyondblue.org.au/media/news/news/2019/05/28/sui...

float4 5y ago
Thanks for commenting; interesting sources.