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neild 15y ago
You can't maintain the same level of housing no matter where you are. That's what my example comparing my home town (backwoods Connecticut) with San Francisco is about--it simply doesn't make any sense at all to compare a hundred acres in rural farmland with the equivalent housing situation in a major metropolis. Cost doesn't really enter into it. The type of housing you can afford is a quality of life issue as much or more than it is a cost of living issue. If you live in San Francisco or New York, you accept a smaller living space than you'd get elsewhere. In return, you get access to nightlife, concert venues, and other amenities that can only be had in a densely-populated area. If living on a hundred acres of woodland is important to you, you will not live in San Francisco. If being able to bike to work is important to you, you will not live in Los Angeles. If staying out of the cold is important to you, you will not live in Minneapolis. Money won't buy you any of these things. At some levels, it may seem that it's just an issue of money. You can, of course, buy a detached, single-family house in San Francisco. It'll cost you millions, but you can do it if you're rich enough. Attempting to paint this as a difference in cost of living, however, is simply disingenuous--the detached home in San Francisco is the local equivalent of a mansion in my home town. It's not equivalent, any more than hiring Michael Franti to make a personal trip out to Connecticut to play for you would be equivalent to catching a show at a local concert hall. And, finally, it's important to remember that unless you're living entirely hand-to-mouth, not all of your income goes to living expenses. If you're in the well-paid engineer club, then hopefully only a relatively small portion of your income goes to living expenses. Moving from a cheap location to an expensive one may increase that portion, but it doesn't make any sense at all to multiply your current income by a constant factor to determine the "equivalent" in a different location. That's what that calculator does, and it's deceptive and wrong.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  > You can't maintain the same level of housing no matter where you are. I realize that, and what you said. My point was, the numbers there had housing playing a major role in affecting your cost of living. Simply put, if I wanted the same 4 bedroom, 2500 sqft house between here and San Francisco, it's going to cost me a LOT more. However, if I ignore the housing, the rest of the estimates are still useful, and as a result, you can still find out how much more or less you need to make to maintain what you are used to. > That's what that calculator does, and it's deceptive and wrong. If you look at the numbers blindly, sure. But their is value in knowing the comparative values in things besides housing. After all, it's not just giving you one single number. My argument isn't that the calculator is completely right, only that it's not completely useless as you make it out to be. Finally, you also talk a lot about other factors. While it's true, it's also pointless. Of course people aren't going to just look at the calculator and base everything off that. However, for many people, it's a helpful indication of what to expect. A 20% increase across the board for all expenses could mean someone moving for a job for a small pay raise might need to plan accordingly. Basically, knowing how much things cost relative to where you are now is important. Yes, the more money you make, the less it matters, but there are far fewer people in that situation.

mendocino 15y ago

The buckets might have a Valley bias. It seems the only programmers at SV companies that make less than 100k these days are interns.

sukuriant 15y ago
Actually, this is a serious consideration. Location greatly affects pay, as cost of living changes. For example, it's substantially more expensive to live in Silicon Valley than it is to live in Cocoa Beach, FL or Seattle, WA
- dasil003 15y ago
  On the other hand London is more expensive than Silicon Valley and salaries are much lower. The correlation to cost of living is loose at best. In the case of Silicon Valley I'm convinced it's actually the tech money that raises the cost of living.
  - scythe 15y ago
    Salaries in Britain are in general lower than the US, especially as measured by purchasing power parity; the difference is about 30%. This is recouped in theory by the increased services provided by the British government (e.g. NHS and the Dole). On the other hand, New York is more expensive than the Valley and salaries are, IIRC, even higher.
    - gopi 15y ago
      Actually this is a big misconception in UK/Europe. Unless you are a independent software contractor you get insurance thro your company in US. So the salary posted here excludes the benefits (insurance, vacation, 401k etc)... IMO, with lesser US taxes & cost of living the US software programmer makes atleast twice than that of his eurpoean counterpart!
      - X-Istence 15y ago
        Even if you get it through your company sometimes, if not most of the time the employee is required to put in Y out of X amount where X is the amount of the plan.
kstenerud 15y ago
And founders
code_devil 15y ago
Also it might have a bias towards Web/Mobile Apps. So, I created another poll to verify that. http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=2764570 http://news.ycombinator.org/item?id=2764570
arcdrag 15y ago
Agreed. 100k is a tech-lead salary in St. Louis area...but houses can be bought for under 100k so I guess it balances out.
thebandrews 15y ago
I would agree. The company I work for gives a 25% boost in pay just for relocating to the SV branch from other branches. This is merely a cost of living bump for the exact same job title.

sshumaker 15y ago

Interesting. When doing hiring, I've always mentally divided developers into different categories than you've been suggesting: - 65k (entry-level) - under 100k (intermediate, or junior with a lot of promise) - 100-125 - most of my hires have been in this range - mid-level, talented, solid programmers - 150k+ - 'lead' / superstar level. It's very rare to find candidates that meet this level. Beyond 150-200k range, most of the compensation tends to come from bonuses, stock, and options - which can vastly exceed base salary.

skrebbel 15y ago
I'm amazed at what people in the US earn. Seems like the Netherlands is a developing country after all. I'm rather certain that my employer rates me in at least what you describe as the "under 100k" range, but I earn 40k euros per year. Do you guys all go on holidays to Latin America 3x per year? And have six broadscreen TVs? And villas with seaside views? Or is a 1 liter bottle of coke just also 10$ in the US?
- deleted 15y ago
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- BrandonM 15y ago
  A 1 liter bottle of coke is about $1.50-2. Some people do have several large screen TVs. Mostly, though, college education is really expensive, minimum wage is comparatively low, medical coverage isn't nationalized, and debt is (or at least used to be) easy to acquire. In other words, it's easy to come out of college with $50-100K in student loans. It's also easy to get a major injury without medical insurance, pay $10K out of pocket to rectify it, and rack up another $10-15K by living on credit for a year.
  - BrandonM 15y ago
    Paying a student loan of $60K over 25 years at 3.5% interest is $300 per month. Paying the medical bills of $10K over 2 years at 0% interest is $415 per month. Paying the credit card bills of $15K over 5 years at 14% interest is $350 per month. Ugh... $1K in debt payment alone.
- burgerbrain 15y ago
  As I understand it, Americans actually get/take far less vacation than Europeans. Couple that with comparatively no social services and this should start to make sense.
- tripzilch 15y ago
  hee skrebbel! :D see this http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7413/2008usincomedistributio.png http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/7413/2008usincomedistribu... I had to massage a whole bunch of numbers from bls.gov to get this histogram (huge list of annual income per county per occupation group), it's not exactly the kind of data they like to publish :) Of course this is 2008, mostly before the recession. Would be interesting to see if they got new data and how it changed. And this is for all occupation groups, computer programmers are of course on the higher end of this graph. And yeah, depending on where you are in the US, things you'd expect to be cheap in the supermarkets here generally tend to be a bit more expensive. Also because they always list the prices excluding VAT [in most states]. If they list the prices correctly, or at all. And actually charge you the same amount at the checkout. Outside of supermarkets, prices seem reasonable, until you find you need to pay 15-20% in tips because waiting staff doesn't get minimum wage [in most states] and it's up to the customers to make sure they don't starve. So yeah, not very developed after all :-) [also: healthcare. unless you're rich you get none. half the people on the street walk around with visible ailments of some kind. but I'm getting OT] A bottle of coke, however, is much, much cheaper than over here. Also, bigger. groetjes - ritz
  - deleted 15y ago
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- drinian 15y ago
  What rights do you have as an employee? Vacation time, maternity leave, severance pay? In the US, these things are not mandatory. Good employers (like mine) are relatively generous, but not like what I've heard in Europe.