6 ms·

What about: - those that use different VCSs? - people who don't have the time (due to their job or other circumstances) to work on things they can open source

by cletus 15y ago

What about: - those that use different VCSs? - people who don't have the time (due to their job or other circumstances) to work on things they can open source? - people who work at companies that essentially own everything they might do so you can't work on open source? and - companies where hiring goes through HR who won't know what the hell Github is? Having work on Github is probably a good idea for college students and recent grads but once people are employed it's value drops off significantly (IMHO). From a hiring perspective, you're also greatly limited your field of candidates if you only look at Github profiles.

jjm 15y ago
While this post talks about GitHub, i think it very well applies to any distributed version control system. Having an open source project is another means of visibly showing your enthusiasm, and even skill set. Notice how I don't say actual 'skill'. That is always subject to the eye of the beholder. By your definition, someone better tell https://github.com/jeresig https://github.com/jeresig & https://github.com/zedshaw https://github.com/zedshaw they're JR developers and should go back to school.
- mishmash 15y ago
  Both of your examples are of people who are and were extremely well known both before and outside of GitHub.
  - jjm 15y ago
    Well, I've met some extremely talented people through GitHub who would otherwise be unknown. People who have built now popular libraries and frameworks.
kfalter 15y ago
Github is to coders what an online portfolio/web presence is for designers. Look at the design industry... corporate designers and grads and freelancers used to all have a hard copy, artfully crafted portfolio on sensual-to-touch paper stock. That's gone. And no one cared if the corporate designers didn't have time to create a website. Even if you still have an amazing portfolio (which is the resume for the designer), you better have something online (whether they are personal projects done outside of work, or glimpses of projects done at work). The paper resume is going away anyway. And then when HR finally gets up with the times, do you really think they are going to say, "Aww, it's ok, we understand you didn't get on Github because you were waiting for us..." No. HR people hiring designers using their online portfolio is a lagging indicator. And the same will go for HR people hiring developers based on Github.
- eropple 15y ago
  No. Github is that to some coders. The overwhelming majority of programmers do not use Github for their projects. I would bet that not even a majority of open-source programmers use Github for their projects. There are alternatives. Quit thinking yours is the only way. It is not.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
  - kfalter 15y ago
    Not going to speak for dblock, but I don't think that Github is the point here. Whether on Github or some other open source project depository, the point is that you're self-publishing the code behind a creation. He says, "If you don’t have a website, tech blog or any kind of useful online presence,..." thennn use Github or in conjunction use Github. Really, imo, it's more about the fact that people will probably Google you before they try to contact you about a pdf/paper resume.
vailripper 15y ago
Whenever I'm hiring developers (junior through senior) I ask to see any portfolios they might have - github, websites they've built, a zip file of stuff they've written. I don't care what format it comes in. That said, expecting companies to be able to make good hires without having ANY code to look at isn't very realistic. I understand that sometimes people don't have the time / can't share work they do during the course of their job, but it DOES hurt your chances when there is nothing for someone hiring to look at. That said, if you're dedicating all your time to your day job, and presumably you're doing a great job there, then referrals are the way to go. We're always looking for referrals from employees within our company, and have always had the best experience with those hires.
swanson 15y ago
Regarding different VCSs, the point is that code is the new resume and Github happens to be the most popular place to find it. Links to bitbucket, sourceforge, google code, etc etc are all equally valuable and would have the same impact. Personal time commitments are understandable, but I feel like they are just an excuse in 90% of the cases. As 37signals puts it, "No time is no excuse". If you are serious about improving your abilities and buy into the craftmanship model at all, you can surely find a few hours of month to work on something, anything. Trade an hour of TV watching for an hour of writing your own blog engine or a Todo list app. Or write something to improve some small bit of your life (a program that emails you once a month to remind you to take your SO out for a nice dinner), put that on github. Don't make it out like you have to write the next Rails or jQuery to put code online. The rest of your issues are largely related to workplace culture. If you work at a company that uses any open source code (and I know there are some cases that don't due to federal validation and redtape etc etc), you have probably found a bug at some point. Put in an issue on github - send a pull request if you feel ambitious or if you had to monkeypatch the code for your project anyways. I have a feeling that people that work for closed/IP-hungry companies will go to the same kind of company when they change jobs. And that is fine, for some people software is just a job; but those are not the kind of people that read HN or software blogs anyways. I know you are probably playing devil's advocate here, but every time someone posts about why developers should have side projects or github accounts, these points all get brought up and it bugs me.
- econgeeker 15y ago
  You're expressing a prejudice here and advocating discrimination based on it. It seems ideological. You're saying "Don't hire people if they don't contribute to open source projects." You assume they are watching TV, rather than, say, working on an iOS game that they are selling. Resumes are for deciding who you're going to interview. If github is the new resume, then you're not going to know about the side projects.
  - swanson 15y ago
    I don't want to turn this into a game of forum post logical proofs. I don't advocate "don't hire if no OSS". I work with smart people that get stuff done and don't have a Github account. That's fine, it's a personal choice how you use your time. What rubs me the wrong way is when people say "It's unfair to look at Github as the new resume because I don't have enough time to do open source". Like I said originally, I'm sure someone is going to come along and post about how every hour of their day is being used for meaningful activities, but for the majority of people I don't think that's true.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
pnathan 15y ago
As someone who works in a 'bigco' culture, I would definitely be looking for a github (or other vcs) link on a new hire, regardless of seniority. Of course they might have their own website with some portfolio code, and that is fine too in my eyes. What I'm looking for is the signal that says, "I care about my profession, I go the extra mile".
- econgeeker 15y ago
  No, you're saying you want an excuse not to hire people who don't contribute to open source on your favorite source hosting site.
  - eropple 15y ago
    I would suggest gently that pnathan is saying the exact opposite of that. Certain others with an odd veneration for Github seem to be saying otherwise (see kfalter's post on another subthread), but they are not a majority.
  - pnathan 15y ago
    No, I want to see someone who has contributed in ways I can see that I can look up and also consider the quality of his work. My corporate contributions almost certainly will never leave the purview of the company servers. Ergo, if I ever want to show code samples, I will have to write them at home, on my own time.
- bartonfink 15y ago
  I care about my profession. I go the extra mile. Last year, I read Programming Language Pragmatics and the Dragon book because the semester I wanted to take programming languages, the course was offered when I had to work and I never got a formal background. Last month I read 22 research papers in ad-hoc mobile networking in an effort to broaden my horizons beyond what I'm currently working on. Sure, I could write ns-2 simulations (and I did plenty of them as part of my MS) but once I understand what I've read, writing the simulation doesn't hold much benefit for me, does it? None of the work I invest in myself will be available in any form on github because it simply doesn't fit there in any meaningful sense (unless you want me to upload some sort of .txt book report). I spend my "self-improvement" time on conceptual problems that don't map to github or other repositories in any way. If I want to solve a trivial problem, I assume someone else already has (it's probably on github) and there's no point in me reinventing the wheel. What does me writing another ORM tool tell you except that I'm able to copy someone else's ideas?

by cletus 15y ago

jjm 15y ago

While this post talks about GitHub, i think it very well applies to any distributed version control system. Having an open source project is another means of visibly showing your enthusiasm, and even skill set. Notice how I don't say actual 'skill'. That is always subject to the eye of the beholder. By your definition, someone better tell https://github.com/jeresig https://github.com/jeresig & https://github.com/zedshaw https://github.com/zedshaw they're JR developers and should go back to school.

mishmash 15y ago
Both of your examples are of people who are and were extremely well known both before and outside of GitHub.
- jjm 15y ago
  Well, I've met some extremely talented people through GitHub who would otherwise be unknown. People who have built now popular libraries and frameworks.

kfalter 15y ago

Github is to coders what an online portfolio/web presence is for designers. Look at the design industry... corporate designers and grads and freelancers used to all have a hard copy, artfully crafted portfolio on sensual-to-touch paper stock. That's gone. And no one cared if the corporate designers didn't have time to create a website. Even if you still have an amazing portfolio (which is the resume for the designer), you better have something online (whether they are personal projects done outside of work, or glimpses of projects done at work). The paper resume is going away anyway. And then when HR finally gets up with the times, do you really think they are going to say, "Aww, it's ok, we understand you didn't get on Github because you were waiting for us..." No. HR people hiring designers using their online portfolio is a lagging indicator. And the same will go for HR people hiring developers based on Github.

eropple 15y ago
No. Github is that to some coders. The overwhelming majority of programmers do not use Github for their projects. I would bet that not even a majority of open-source programmers use Github for their projects. There are alternatives. Quit thinking yours is the only way. It is not.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- kfalter 15y ago
  Not going to speak for dblock, but I don't think that Github is the point here. Whether on Github or some other open source project depository, the point is that you're self-publishing the code behind a creation. He says, "If you don’t have a website, tech blog or any kind of useful online presence,..." thennn use Github or in conjunction use Github. Really, imo, it's more about the fact that people will probably Google you before they try to contact you about a pdf/paper resume.

vailripper 15y ago

Whenever I'm hiring developers (junior through senior) I ask to see any portfolios they might have - github, websites they've built, a zip file of stuff they've written. I don't care what format it comes in. That said, expecting companies to be able to make good hires without having ANY code to look at isn't very realistic. I understand that sometimes people don't have the time / can't share work they do during the course of their job, but it DOES hurt your chances when there is nothing for someone hiring to look at. That said, if you're dedicating all your time to your day job, and presumably you're doing a great job there, then referrals are the way to go. We're always looking for referrals from employees within our company, and have always had the best experience with those hires.

swanson 15y ago

Regarding different VCSs, the point is that code is the new resume and Github happens to be the most popular place to find it. Links to bitbucket, sourceforge, google code, etc etc are all equally valuable and would have the same impact. Personal time commitments are understandable, but I feel like they are just an excuse in 90% of the cases. As 37signals puts it, "No time is no excuse". If you are serious about improving your abilities and buy into the craftmanship model at all, you can surely find a few hours of month to work on something, anything. Trade an hour of TV watching for an hour of writing your own blog engine or a Todo list app. Or write something to improve some small bit of your life (a program that emails you once a month to remind you to take your SO out for a nice dinner), put that on github. Don't make it out like you have to write the next Rails or jQuery to put code online. The rest of your issues are largely related to workplace culture. If you work at a company that uses any open source code (and I know there are some cases that don't due to federal validation and redtape etc etc), you have probably found a bug at some point. Put in an issue on github - send a pull request if you feel ambitious or if you had to monkeypatch the code for your project anyways. I have a feeling that people that work for closed/IP-hungry companies will go to the same kind of company when they change jobs. And that is fine, for some people software is just a job; but those are not the kind of people that read HN or software blogs anyways. I know you are probably playing devil's advocate here, but every time someone posts about why developers should have side projects or github accounts, these points all get brought up and it bugs me.

econgeeker 15y ago
You're expressing a prejudice here and advocating discrimination based on it. It seems ideological. You're saying "Don't hire people if they don't contribute to open source projects." You assume they are watching TV, rather than, say, working on an iOS game that they are selling. Resumes are for deciding who you're going to interview. If github is the new resume, then you're not going to know about the side projects.
- swanson 15y ago
  I don't want to turn this into a game of forum post logical proofs. I don't advocate "don't hire if no OSS". I work with smart people that get stuff done and don't have a Github account. That's fine, it's a personal choice how you use your time. What rubs me the wrong way is when people say "It's unfair to look at Github as the new resume because I don't have enough time to do open source". Like I said originally, I'm sure someone is going to come along and post about how every hour of their day is being used for meaningful activities, but for the majority of people I don't think that's true.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

pnathan 15y ago

As someone who works in a 'bigco' culture, I would definitely be looking for a github (or other vcs) link on a new hire, regardless of seniority. Of course they might have their own website with some portfolio code, and that is fine too in my eyes. What I'm looking for is the signal that says, "I care about my profession, I go the extra mile".

econgeeker 15y ago
No, you're saying you want an excuse not to hire people who don't contribute to open source on your favorite source hosting site.
- eropple 15y ago
  I would suggest gently that pnathan is saying the exact opposite of that. Certain others with an odd veneration for Github seem to be saying otherwise (see kfalter's post on another subthread), but they are not a majority.
- pnathan 15y ago
  No, I want to see someone who has contributed in ways I can see that I can look up and also consider the quality of his work. My corporate contributions almost certainly will never leave the purview of the company servers. Ergo, if I ever want to show code samples, I will have to write them at home, on my own time.
bartonfink 15y ago
I care about my profession. I go the extra mile. Last year, I read Programming Language Pragmatics and the Dragon book because the semester I wanted to take programming languages, the course was offered when I had to work and I never got a formal background. Last month I read 22 research papers in ad-hoc mobile networking in an effort to broaden my horizons beyond what I'm currently working on. Sure, I could write ns-2 simulations (and I did plenty of them as part of my MS) but once I understand what I've read, writing the simulation doesn't hold much benefit for me, does it? None of the work I invest in myself will be available in any form on github because it simply doesn't fit there in any meaningful sense (unless you want me to upload some sort of .txt book report). I spend my "self-improvement" time on conceptual problems that don't map to github or other repositories in any way. If I want to solve a trivial problem, I assume someone else already has (it's probably on github) and there's no point in me reinventing the wheel. What does me writing another ORM tool tell you except that I'm able to copy someone else's ideas?