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The impressive thing here isn't that some random company is doing it but how many don't recognize it is a dark pattern even when told it is one on HN.

by Tenoke 5y ago

raxxorrax 5y ago
Some larger companies have trained psychologists to nudge people to rationalize their deeds. You aren't just working for an ad company. You are working for the benefit of manind. You bring joy to everyone and restore justice in this world... with ads.
- belval 5y ago
  It's THE thing that I don't like about modern corporate culture, most of us (like +95%) aren't building a new tomorrow or addressing rising inequalities. We build stuff to make money. That's it. That's the goal. It makes me angry when you have internal corporate propaganda trying to spin this as a greater mission. Then you have the coworkers that drink the koolaid and talk as if you were in a cult.
  - sdoering 5y ago
    Thanks. Exactly that. I once was lucky (OK expected to attend the all hands) listening to the world lead of our business unit talking about how we would make the world a better place by making hospital emergency rooms more efficient by applying a Uber model to it. How Uber was the epitome of making a bad experience better for the end user and how this company's mindset should be applied to the world. The ER experience was just an example that would be ripe for disruption in his view as it had not changed in the last few decades from a "user perspective". I filed his talk under "corporate bs for 500" but sadly our local leadership drank the cool aid. I do not have a problem with making money. Or helping companies do so. I know that this is the center piece of capitalism. Great if you provide added value with your offering but making money is paying our mortgage in the end. But for the sake of it. Don't try to brainwash me into believing that what I do makes the world a better place in any significant way.
    - JasonFruit 5y ago
      > I do not have a problem with making money. Or helping companies do so. I know that this is the center piece of capitalism. Great if you provide added value with your offering but making money is paying our mortgage in the end. Exactly! Why do we have to pretend we have a goal other than making money without compromising our principles? The best way to make money and keep on doing so is to give people something that is worth spending their money on. A good product at a fair price isn't healing the world, but it's not breaking anyone's leg either. I wonder if a lot of this goes back to early 20th-century businessmen who tried to apply Transcendentalist thought to business, promoting unity and loyalty by creating a feeling of a noble cause in their employees (Charles Ives, an insurance executive and composer, is the example I'm most familiar with).
      - erikerikson 5y ago
        The restorative power of meeting people's needs can be underestimated.
    - erikerikson 5y ago
      The centerpiece (or perhaps incentive) of capitalism is the cooperation between people that money facilitates more efficiently. Not to ignore the challenges of liberalized economies or the way this can be twisted... Not sure about your scenario but writing code does at least sometimes improve the world. I helped create a product that was later used to restore the rule of law in a country trying to recover from genocide. The homicide and assault rates for the entire country dropped by double digits following use. That seemed significant. While most of my efforts since have had far less dramatic outcomes but the general circumstance is that even mundane things like keeping the lights on are instrumental for peace in our societies. Such things are far from the dark patterns side of the industry but there's something about babies and bathwater. We can contribute to supporting the more constructive and healthy efforts.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago
  And if you call them out on this obvious bullshit you get fired for creating a hostile work environment or some equally bullshit reason.
JohnDeHope 5y ago
"even when told it is one on HN" I think this is an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. https://www.thoughtco.com/logical-fallacies-appeal-to-authority-250336 https://www.thoughtco.com/logical-fallacies-appeal-to-author... Is there a reasonable list of "dark patterns" that this tactic in the OP falls into? I don't doubt it is a dark pattern. I'd just like to know which one it is, and have it explained to me in a little bit more detail. Thanks!
- JasonFruit 5y ago
  I think the point of that part was, "Even the dark-pattern-addicted HN crowd recognizes that this is a dark pattern, so why doesn't everyone?"
ryantgtg 5y ago
I’m seeing a lot of people who didn’t understand what is being described. I’m a front-end dev (kind of) and didn’t understand the description in the blog post. Once it’s been explained on HN, most people here seem to agree.

The impressive thing here isn't that some random company is doing it but how many don't recognize it is a dark pattern even when told it is one on HN.

by Tenoke 5y ago

The impressive thing here isn't that some random company is doing it but how many don't recognize it is a dark pattern even when told it is one on HN.

raxxorrax 5y ago

Some larger companies have trained psychologists to nudge people to rationalize their deeds. You aren't just working for an ad company. You are working for the benefit of manind. You bring joy to everyone and restore justice in this world... with ads.

belval 5y ago
It's THE thing that I don't like about modern corporate culture, most of us (like +95%) aren't building a new tomorrow or addressing rising inequalities. We build stuff to make money. That's it. That's the goal. It makes me angry when you have internal corporate propaganda trying to spin this as a greater mission. Then you have the coworkers that drink the koolaid and talk as if you were in a cult.
- sdoering 5y ago
  Thanks. Exactly that. I once was lucky (OK expected to attend the all hands) listening to the world lead of our business unit talking about how we would make the world a better place by making hospital emergency rooms more efficient by applying a Uber model to it. How Uber was the epitome of making a bad experience better for the end user and how this company's mindset should be applied to the world. The ER experience was just an example that would be ripe for disruption in his view as it had not changed in the last few decades from a "user perspective". I filed his talk under "corporate bs for 500" but sadly our local leadership drank the cool aid. I do not have a problem with making money. Or helping companies do so. I know that this is the center piece of capitalism. Great if you provide added value with your offering but making money is paying our mortgage in the end. But for the sake of it. Don't try to brainwash me into believing that what I do makes the world a better place in any significant way.
  - JasonFruit 5y ago
    > I do not have a problem with making money. Or helping companies do so. I know that this is the center piece of capitalism. Great if you provide added value with your offering but making money is paying our mortgage in the end. Exactly! Why do we have to pretend we have a goal other than making money without compromising our principles? The best way to make money and keep on doing so is to give people something that is worth spending their money on. A good product at a fair price isn't healing the world, but it's not breaking anyone's leg either. I wonder if a lot of this goes back to early 20th-century businessmen who tried to apply Transcendentalist thought to business, promoting unity and loyalty by creating a feeling of a noble cause in their employees (Charles Ives, an insurance executive and composer, is the example I'm most familiar with).
    - erikerikson 5y ago
      The restorative power of meeting people's needs can be underestimated.
  - erikerikson 5y ago
    The centerpiece (or perhaps incentive) of capitalism is the cooperation between people that money facilitates more efficiently. Not to ignore the challenges of liberalized economies or the way this can be twisted... Not sure about your scenario but writing code does at least sometimes improve the world. I helped create a product that was later used to restore the rule of law in a country trying to recover from genocide. The homicide and assault rates for the entire country dropped by double digits following use. That seemed significant. While most of my efforts since have had far less dramatic outcomes but the general circumstance is that even mundane things like keeping the lights on are instrumental for peace in our societies. Such things are far from the dark patterns side of the industry but there's something about babies and bathwater. We can contribute to supporting the more constructive and healthy efforts.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
And if you call them out on this obvious bullshit you get fired for creating a hostile work environment or some equally bullshit reason.

JohnDeHope 5y ago

"even when told it is one on HN" I think this is an appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. https://www.thoughtco.com/logical-fallacies-appeal-to-authority-250336 https://www.thoughtco.com/logical-fallacies-appeal-to-author... Is there a reasonable list of "dark patterns" that this tactic in the OP falls into? I don't doubt it is a dark pattern. I'd just like to know which one it is, and have it explained to me in a little bit more detail. Thanks!

JasonFruit 5y ago
I think the point of that part was, "Even the dark-pattern-addicted HN crowd recognizes that this is a dark pattern, so why doesn't everyone?"

ryantgtg 5y ago

I’m seeing a lot of people who didn’t understand what is being described. I’m a front-end dev (kind of) and didn’t understand the description in the blog post. Once it’s been explained on HN, most people here seem to agree.