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The problem is, what power allows the developer to refuse? If they do, a manager can find someone who won't, and developers who stand by their principles will

The problem is, what power allows the developer to refuse? If they do, a manager can find someone who won't, and developers who stand by their principles will lose to competition. A building engineer could probably drop a hint somewhere and have all kinds of inspectors come knocking, but there's no "building code" for software except in very specific cases; it's perfectly legal to develop insecure software otherwise, and to keep that insecurity a secret from users.

josephg 5y ago
> The problem is, what power allows the developer to refuse? One power we all have is how valuable we are in the jobs market. If you’re a decent engineer in today’s climate, you could get a new software job in days. And it’ll take your company weeks to replace you if they’re lucky, and months to bring your replacement up to speed on what you were working on. The idea that you’re stuck simply working at the whims of management is a self defeating illusion. It is only as true as you believe it to be.
- username90 5y ago
  There are tons of engineers out there who aren't decent, what would you say they do in this scenario?
- bsenftner 5y ago
  ...but that is an illusion power, because all we'd be doing is shifting from one poorly managed code dump to another, just shifting the faces on the pointy haired bosses. Finding a technology developing organization that is not a shit show of unmanaged personalities and a teetering tower of technical debt is extremely difficult.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  I find most employees over estimate their importance. Everyone is replaceable especially a software developer, there are hundreds of just as good developers waiting to take your place if the salary is right. In addition if they fire you on the spot, you are the one that has to deal with that. If the developer does not have a very good emergency fund that further compounds the stress to do as you are told. Not everyone in software makes a US FAANG, SF, NYC salary.
- voakbasda 5y ago
  As a remote only 10xer, it take me months to find a new position. Last two search took over six months. I cannot afford to be principled and walk out every time my employer wants to ship buggy code. And we ship bugs pretty much on a weekly basis, because there is no profit in doing things correctly.
  - josephg 5y ago
    > I cannot afford to be principled and walk out every time my employer wants to ship buggy code And your manager can't afford to fire everyone who pushes back on shipping insecure code. And its not a black and white thing. There's almost always paths which work for everyone. Actively looking for those paths isn't the sign of a bad employee. Its the sign of leadership. In my experience people who step into that sort of responsibility don't get fired. They get promoted.
    - KronisLV 5y ago
      > And your manager can't afford to fire everyone who pushes back on shipping insecure code. I feel like they actually can, since: - most people want to get paid and to have a job, not get fired over principles - therefore, they will bend to the whims of management and release whatever they're told to release - they don't actually have any sort of leverage, as most developers, and are easily replaceable It is good that your experience is so positive, yet that's not the reality in numerous places. Here's a similar post from today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27629543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27629543
bsenftner 5y ago
This is the key reason. Because software products are compiled black boxes, and there is no logical way for a 'software construction building code' or the existence of an 'independent outside-the-company software infrastructure inspector" to exist the industry must develop these roles and must empower them to enforce a structure that the line working developers are not paid to prioritize. It is an extremely tricky mess, of the nature Nobel Prizes in Economics are awarded.

josephg 5y ago

> The problem is, what power allows the developer to refuse? One power we all have is how valuable we are in the jobs market. If you’re a decent engineer in today’s climate, you could get a new software job in days. And it’ll take your company weeks to replace you if they’re lucky, and months to bring your replacement up to speed on what you were working on. The idea that you’re stuck simply working at the whims of management is a self defeating illusion. It is only as true as you believe it to be.

username90 5y ago
There are tons of engineers out there who aren't decent, what would you say they do in this scenario?
bsenftner 5y ago
...but that is an illusion power, because all we'd be doing is shifting from one poorly managed code dump to another, just shifting the faces on the pointy haired bosses. Finding a technology developing organization that is not a shit show of unmanaged personalities and a teetering tower of technical debt is extremely difficult.
wonderwonder 5y ago
I find most employees over estimate their importance. Everyone is replaceable especially a software developer, there are hundreds of just as good developers waiting to take your place if the salary is right. In addition if they fire you on the spot, you are the one that has to deal with that. If the developer does not have a very good emergency fund that further compounds the stress to do as you are told. Not everyone in software makes a US FAANG, SF, NYC salary.
voakbasda 5y ago
As a remote only 10xer, it take me months to find a new position. Last two search took over six months. I cannot afford to be principled and walk out every time my employer wants to ship buggy code. And we ship bugs pretty much on a weekly basis, because there is no profit in doing things correctly.
- josephg 5y ago
  > I cannot afford to be principled and walk out every time my employer wants to ship buggy code And your manager can't afford to fire everyone who pushes back on shipping insecure code. And its not a black and white thing. There's almost always paths which work for everyone. Actively looking for those paths isn't the sign of a bad employee. Its the sign of leadership. In my experience people who step into that sort of responsibility don't get fired. They get promoted.
  - KronisLV 5y ago
    > And your manager can't afford to fire everyone who pushes back on shipping insecure code. I feel like they actually can, since: - most people want to get paid and to have a job, not get fired over principles - therefore, they will bend to the whims of management and release whatever they're told to release - they don't actually have any sort of leverage, as most developers, and are easily replaceable It is good that your experience is so positive, yet that's not the reality in numerous places. Here's a similar post from today: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27629543 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27629543

bsenftner 5y ago

This is the key reason. Because software products are compiled black boxes, and there is no logical way for a 'software construction building code' or the existence of an 'independent outside-the-company software infrastructure inspector" to exist the industry must develop these roles and must empower them to enforce a structure that the line working developers are not paid to prioritize. It is an extremely tricky mess, of the nature Nobel Prizes in Economics are awarded.