7 ms·

Some countries have public tax returns (Sweden? Norway? One of those Nordic countries.) I think probably they should be public data. That aside, for very rich

by eloff 5y ago

Some countries have public tax returns (Sweden? Norway? One of those Nordic countries.) I think probably they should be public data. That aside, for very rich people, having them be public is in the interest of the public as it reveals the shady stuff they do to dodge taxes (legally.)

cdolan 5y ago
Debating wether tax returns should or should not be public is a great debate to have, I agree. The country should be having that debate. And if we decide tax returns should be made public, it should happen in the future so everyone is on the same page. The fact is that US tax returns are private information, regardless of what other countries are doing or what you and I think should be done.
- machinebun 5y ago
  > Debating wether tax returns should or should not be public is a great debate to have, I agree. The country should be having that debate. And if we decide tax returns should be made public, it should happen in the future so everyone is on the same page. The same way the Snowden leaks were instrumental into regulation about surveillance, leaks like this are instrumental in crafting better tax policy, so I would say they are a public good. It's also not-quite possible to do it via completely legal means (as vested interest opposition is too big and has too much capital - the only way to battle against them seems to be to do it via not-so-legal means). So in this case the fight is punching up against people in positions of power, not down onto people that have no power, so I don't see a direct issue with it. If you have power, you should also have the proportionate responsibility.
  - cdolan 5y ago
    "Responsibility" is a very strange word in your comment to me. Snowden leaked government program details. How in the world is that the same about thousands of private citizens (aka not public figures) personal financial details? How are these individuals not being "responsible"? The only unresponsible person is the person(s) who leaked the details, and ProPublica for monetizing it.
    - machinebun 5y ago
      We have a disagreement in what makes a public figure then. I believe that over a certain level of wealth, the wealth alone makes someone a public figure or a figure of significance (since wealth = power, and public status also = power, and celebrity status = power). If someone is powerful enough to have power over other people (which the wealthy certainly are), then they should account for that power with appropriate responsibility. If you don't want to be a public figure, don't accumulate exorbitant amounts of wealth.
      - cdolan 5y ago
        When I say public figure (which Mr. Thiel is, despite his harassment by Gawker and other quirks, but I get your point) I am referring to the thousands of non-public figures who have had their personal tax details stolen and shared with ProPublica, who seemingly did nothing to deserve this.
        ryandrake 5y ago
        It is in the public's interest to transparently understand the activities and finances of anyone with outsized political power. Since money is freely convertible to and from political power, people with outsized amounts of money have outsized political power, and are therefore public figures. Are ProPublica publishing details of people who are not rich?
        cdolan 5y ago
        Do you know today what they will do with these thousands of files on other people’s personal details? Do you think they will just… delete them? Because if so I’ve got a great time traveling hot tub to sell you
- walshemj 5y ago
  Welcome to the great panopticon remember the Telescreen sees all citizen.
yupper32 5y ago
You want family and friends to know exactly how much you make? That's extremely problematic for a lot of people. Congress already has access to tax returns for the purpose of writing tax legislation. It's not perfect but I really don't want my finances public, and I'm not doing anything shady.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "You want family and friends to know exactly how much you make? That's extremely problematic for a lot of people." Can you explain why it's problematic?
  - yupper32 5y ago
    Family can be very manipulative when they know you have much more money than them. It can end up massively hurting relationships. I don't even tell my parents how much I make.
    - pmoriarty 5y ago
      "Family can be very manipulative when they know you have much more money than them." As I suspected, this is mainly a problem of the rich. Most of the rest of us don't make much more money than anybody. So are we going to make our laws to advantage the rich or the vast and ever growing majority of the population who aren't and never will be rich?
      - yupper32 5y ago
        Ah yes, I'm the problem, paying around 40% in taxes. People making 6-figures a year are not the ones manipulating the financial system. HN is particularly in this category. But go ahead and lump me in with someone with like 6000x my net worth.
        pmoriarty 5y ago
        You don't have to be a billionaire to be part of the problem (though it helps).
ffggvv 5y ago
some countries have nude beaches but not sure if you want your private photos leaked to the public.

by eloff 5y ago

cdolan 5y ago

Debating wether tax returns should or should not be public is a great debate to have, I agree. The country should be having that debate. And if we decide tax returns should be made public, it should happen in the future so everyone is on the same page. The fact is that US tax returns are private information, regardless of what other countries are doing or what you and I think should be done.

machinebun 5y ago
> Debating wether tax returns should or should not be public is a great debate to have, I agree. The country should be having that debate. And if we decide tax returns should be made public, it should happen in the future so everyone is on the same page. The same way the Snowden leaks were instrumental into regulation about surveillance, leaks like this are instrumental in crafting better tax policy, so I would say they are a public good. It's also not-quite possible to do it via completely legal means (as vested interest opposition is too big and has too much capital - the only way to battle against them seems to be to do it via not-so-legal means). So in this case the fight is punching up against people in positions of power, not down onto people that have no power, so I don't see a direct issue with it. If you have power, you should also have the proportionate responsibility.
- cdolan 5y ago
  "Responsibility" is a very strange word in your comment to me. Snowden leaked government program details. How in the world is that the same about thousands of private citizens (aka not public figures) personal financial details? How are these individuals not being "responsible"? The only unresponsible person is the person(s) who leaked the details, and ProPublica for monetizing it.
  - machinebun 5y ago
    We have a disagreement in what makes a public figure then. I believe that over a certain level of wealth, the wealth alone makes someone a public figure or a figure of significance (since wealth = power, and public status also = power, and celebrity status = power). If someone is powerful enough to have power over other people (which the wealthy certainly are), then they should account for that power with appropriate responsibility. If you don't want to be a public figure, don't accumulate exorbitant amounts of wealth.
    - cdolan 5y ago
      When I say public figure (which Mr. Thiel is, despite his harassment by Gawker and other quirks, but I get your point) I am referring to the thousands of non-public figures who have had their personal tax details stolen and shared with ProPublica, who seemingly did nothing to deserve this.
      - ryandrake 5y ago
        It is in the public's interest to transparently understand the activities and finances of anyone with outsized political power. Since money is freely convertible to and from political power, people with outsized amounts of money have outsized political power, and are therefore public figures. Are ProPublica publishing details of people who are not rich?
        cdolan 5y ago
        Do you know today what they will do with these thousands of files on other people’s personal details? Do you think they will just… delete them? Because if so I’ve got a great time traveling hot tub to sell you
walshemj 5y ago
Welcome to the great panopticon remember the Telescreen sees all citizen.

yupper32 5y ago

You want family and friends to know exactly how much you make? That's extremely problematic for a lot of people. Congress already has access to tax returns for the purpose of writing tax legislation. It's not perfect but I really don't want my finances public, and I'm not doing anything shady.

pmoriarty 5y ago
"You want family and friends to know exactly how much you make? That's extremely problematic for a lot of people." Can you explain why it's problematic?
- yupper32 5y ago
  Family can be very manipulative when they know you have much more money than them. It can end up massively hurting relationships. I don't even tell my parents how much I make.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    "Family can be very manipulative when they know you have much more money than them." As I suspected, this is mainly a problem of the rich. Most of the rest of us don't make much more money than anybody. So are we going to make our laws to advantage the rich or the vast and ever growing majority of the population who aren't and never will be rich?
    - yupper32 5y ago
      Ah yes, I'm the problem, paying around 40% in taxes. People making 6-figures a year are not the ones manipulating the financial system. HN is particularly in this category. But go ahead and lump me in with someone with like 6000x my net worth.
      - pmoriarty 5y ago
        You don't have to be a billionaire to be part of the problem (though it helps).

ffggvv 5y ago

some countries have nude beaches but not sure if you want your private photos leaked to the public.