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30 years for tax evasion? No wonder he preferred to die. I mean, you’ll get jail time for severe cases of tax evasion in Germany, too, but it’s a couple of yea
by G3rn0ti 5y ago
30 years for tax evasion? No wonder he preferred to die.
I mean, you’ll get jail time for severe cases of tax evasion in Germany, too, but it’s a couple of years at max and most of the time it’s on probation.
How do you justify your draconic punishments in the US which is supposed to be a free country?
- srswtf123 5y agoThe sadly honest answer is that we don’t justify it. The people in power like punishing people.
- Trias11 5y agoUS Citizenship in reality is an IRS trap. Now Biden wants to hire 87,000 more IRS workers to harass americans. This used to be a great country. Times long gone.
- romanovcode 5y agoAFAIK U.S. is the only country that makes you pay tax even if you are tax resident of different country. Ironically it does not apply to corporations that fail to pay billions in tax.
- atlasunshrugged 5y agoAlso Eritrea :) Jokes aside, there is a waiver if you are earning less than ~$150,000 as a single earner where you're not double taxed.
- marton78 5y agoWell, that military won't pay itself...
- midasuni 5y agoHaving a US passport entitles citizens to a lot of benefits globally, those benefits have to be paid for. It would seem odd that you can benefit from the US growing up, and once you make it, you can move to the Cayman Islands and not pay for the benefits you have received
- marcan_42 5y agoHaving a European passport entitles citizens to a lot of benefits globally too, but oddly enough I haven't paid taxes to any EU country since the day I moved out and nobody expects me to. I'm not sure why the US thinks it is so special that it is entitled to tax people who happen to be born there even if they have nothing to do with the country any more. You aren't taking a loan on taxes during your childhood; that period is sponsored by everyone else. It goes both ways.
- gok 5y agoAmericans are weirdly obsessed with the idea of rich expats not paying US taxes.
- geomark 5y agoCan you mention some of those benefits?
- romanovcode 5y agoIf you're talking about visa-free travels around the world than I have to break it to you: European passports are stronger than US. Just FYI.
- Trias11 5y ago>> makes you pay tax even if you are tax resident of different country It's not that someone is tax resident of different country. The disgusting part of this IRS racket is that US forces people to pay taxes to US even if they no longer live there. Eritrea is the only another one like US in this aspect.
- carl_dr 5y agoThe US and Eritrea. I knew this was a thing, but I had always assumed a US citizen living abroad only ended up paying tax to the IRS if the tax they paid to the foreign government was less than what they would have paid to the US, and only the difference is paid. But it seems that’s not the case, and you get an exemption for “only” the first $108,700 of your earnings. As with everything the IRS does, it seems complex and full of exemptions, but I have read that (badically) correctly? You could end you being double taxed if you earn more than that?
- Trias11 5y agoWhy person needs to go through the hassles and expenses to file tax return every year to the country where he/she doesn't not live in any longer? What kind of state sponsored racket is this?
- vinay427 5y agoWith the major caveat below, on the face of it, it doesn't seem much less arbitrary to tax by citizenship than by residence in certain cases. For instance, as someone that grew up in the US and went to public schools, I certainly used far more public resources there than in my current country of residence, and would also (as a citizen) have access to an indefinite further amount of resources such as consular representation, retirement benefits if retiring there, etc. It seems about as arbitrary to me to pay taxes in a country that I cannot unilaterally choose to continue living in, due to immigration obstacles. However, given that the global consensus is to tax by residence, the US should absolutely change its policy to avoid the hassles due to this inconsistency.
- marcan_42 5y agoIt's possible to be a citizen of a country without having ever used any resources from it (it's also possible to have dual citizenship, which complicates things). Taxation isn't about retroactively collecting money for the resources you used during your childhood, it's about collecting money for the resources you're using today. Children, the unemployed, etc. are sponsored by the rest, they aren't taking a loan on their taxes.
- G3rn0ti 5y agoHow high is the US income tax? And is it progressive?
- smitty1110 5y agoTop end, which kicks in at a bit shy of $520k is 37%. Top end Long-term Capital Gains max rate is 20% at about $440k. These are numbers for individuals, they differ for married couples and households filing collectively.
- not2b 5y agoThe very wealthy can usually avoid paying anywhere near these amounts, though. Corporate owners can pay themselves a nominal salary and let the corporation grow. Capital gains are only due when stock is sold. So they avoid selling and borrow using their stock as collateral.
- Trias11 5y agoI think you're underestimating. There are Federal AND state taxes and that math quickly adds up.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- echelon 5y agoNot all states have income taxes. State income taxes are usually pretty low. Texas and Florida don't have an income tax. Georgia ranges from 1% to 5.5%. California goes all the way up to 13%.
- G3rn0ti 5y agoAt least that’s lower than in many European countries. In case of the income tax at least.
- carl_dr 5y ago
- InitialLastName 5y ago> This used to be a great country. When?
- ahartmetz 5y agoSeen from over the pond in Germany: It seems like the US were (compared to the rest of the world) at their best from 1860ish to 1970ish. When they had great education for he masses, public health, technological and economic progress, a certain naive idealism, and the most comfortable middle class in the world. Things were, if not already good, pointing in the right direction. After that, selfish and cynical elites took over and society stagnated and fragmented.
- lcvw 5y agoI mean 1860 is when the civil war happened, possibly the worst time in American history. And the 70s were the end of Vietnam, another terrible time. Cynical elites have been apart of American history at every point between those two dates. I don’t think you can pick a time where America was really great or perfect. The only real example I can think of is the end of WW2 where American industry accounted for a staggering 50% of the world’s industrial output.
- ahartmetz 5y agoI'm not an expert on US history, yes. I was aiming for "well before 1900, about the time of the first industrial boom" and "slightly before the mergers and acquisitions craze of the 80s". The US had the or one of the best fed, healthiest, best educated populations in the world around 1900. That was a clear success and it didn't start then.
- astrange 5y agoIt was good around 1880-1900 while Reconstruction was going but got bad again for anyone non-white a bit after when eg they elected Woodrow Wilson who was absolutely insanely racist.
- 5y ago
- nvarsj 5y agoNever, ever get US citizenship if you plan to live abroad at any point in your life. The US tax regime has become oppressive and punitive for expats. It's a sad state of affairs.
- AdamN 5y agoUS indeed has draconian punishments. However 30 years is a starting/worst case scenario to encourage a plea bargain. Plea bargains are horrendous and really should be banned or made extremely rare.
- CobrastanJorji 5y agoI completely agree, but plea bargains are also the basic mechanism by which the justice system functioned. They represent something like 95% of convictions. If everybody who currently took a plea switched to demanding a trial, we'd need at least twenty times as many judges and juries. I'm not against that, mind you, I'm just saying that you are proposing a massive sea change in the legal system. Everything about the recommended sentencing to basic questions like "what incentives can we offer to flip on someone" would need to be completely rethought.
- chalst 5y agoGiven the US imprisons its citizens at nearly ten times the rate that Germany does, has hugely unpredictable outcomes to civil suits, and clearly has serious problems with reliability of convictions in criminal cases, the question shouldn't be whether the US should have radical changes to its legal system, but how to achieve it.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoGermans also tend to be more stable and commit less crimes than the USA, the crime rate here is also very high compared to Germany, including white collar crime. However, yeah our industrial prison complex system is extremely backward and should concentrate much more on rehabilitation and making sure that it's a (relatively) safe environment with things like 100% camera coverage since prison violence and rape are such a common thing.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoI agree to an extend. However plea bargains can also be a valuable tool for getting to higher ups that actually make difference in some crimes. That's why they will try to flip low end lieutenants in racketeering to nail the big guys.
- dotBen 5y agoYou're not free to not pay your taxes (take that as an abstract comment, I have no view or knowledge on McAfee and his personal tax affairs)
- tim333 5y agoMany countries largely limit things to taking your assets rather than locking you up, especially in cases like McAffees where I don't think he committed fraud, just refused to do his tax returns.
- freeone3000 5y agoThere's an underlying element of basic cooperation there -- you will actually surrender the assets, eg, instead of putting it all into cryptocurrency then sailing into international waters.
- dumbfckeuro 5y agoHe would never see jail, hadn't even been convicted yet, average jail time is like 15 months in the usa, and he didn't kill himself. Germany max is 10 years BTW, at least google before you post bullshit.
- G3rn0ti 5y agoIt’s 5 years. The 10 years are an amendment in cases of organized crime or public servants misusing their power. This exception exists to lock up criminals if no other charges can be proven. https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ao_1977/__370.html https://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/ao_1977/__370.html
- freddie_mercury 5y agoGermany has more draconic laws than the US in this situation, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. "Under German law, the maximum term for one count of aggravated tax evasion is 10 years. If an accused is convicted of more than one count, the court can increase the maximum to 15 years." The US is 5 years for each count, half of Germany's. Macafee was under accused of multiple crimes, which added up to the headline figure of 30 years. If he had been German it would have 60 years for those same multiple crimes.
- G3rn0ti 5y agoPrison time here in Germany is limited to 15 years at max — independent on the number of crimes. People imprisoned for violent crimes may stay there for their whole life if they pose an ongoing threat to public safety.
- rOOb85 5y ago- Prison time here in Germany is limited to 15 years at max - People imprisoned for violent crimes may stay there for their whole life if they pose an ongoing threat to public safety. So... Germany DOES have a life sentence. Kinda misleading to state it doesn't.
- nkmnz 5y agoIt’s not misleading. The prison term is 15 yrs max. In case of extraordinary violent crimes, the prisoner will be continuously evaluated and - if deemed to be a threat to public safety - hold on custody. Not because of the crime itself, but as a preventive measure. Once the evaluation no longer suggests a threat to public safety, they can leave.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- magicalhippo 5y agoNot sure about Germany, but here in Norway we have prison sentence with a max of 21 years which is a punishment. However we also have "forvaring", or detention, which is locking someone up to protect the public. If you're sentenced to "forvaring", you're not let go at the end. Instead a commission will review your case and behavior, and determine if the "forvaring" needs to be extended or not. So while you can't get more than 11 years (IIRC) at a time, the sentence can be extended indefinitely. The important point is that "forvaring" isn't mean to be a punishment, although I assume it might certainly feel like it. It's meant to protect the public from a dangerous individual.
- hourislate 5y agoThe US loves it jails and they love making examples out of people unless of course you're a corporation or a politician. Then you're allowed to evade taxes, insider trading, and anything else that is considered a death sentence for everyone else.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoActually we don't but as a society since it's only like 3% of the population we don't pay much attention to it so neither do politicians.
- pcbro141 5y agoMy understanding was the IRS will give you a chance to pay back your taxes with penalties, and they only criminally charge people as a last resort. Is that not the case? Or perhaps only for people who aren't being egregious with their evasion.
- freeone3000 5y agoLivestreaming your cryptocurrency-fueled presidential bid while living on a houseboat in international waters to evade arrest may qualify as "being egregious".
- pcbro141 5y agoRight, I don't think they tend to imprison people who accidentally mess up their taxes or fail to report some income to save some money. I think it's typically the very egregious offenders who get jail time.
- watsocd 5y agoEgregious with their evasion for lots of money and then running off to foreign lands to evade. When the catch up to you, you are going away for a long time.
- dcolkitt 5y agoPrison time for tax evasion is extremely rare in the US. Almost always the IRS just collects the penalty and moves on. The only real exceptions are either for criminals with a lot of other charges stacked up (eg mob bosses). Or a public figure making a political statement like Wesley Snipes. Not saying this is good or bad. Just saying it’s how it is. Joe Sixpack who fails to report some cash income will almost certainly never see a jail cell.
- gpt5 5y agoSelective enforcement is bad. The fact that the law says that you could go to prison for one year for not filing taxes on time, but that it's rarely enforced means that they should fix the law. Using it only on "bad guys" is a recipe for the government punishing people that disagrees with them.
- uDontKnowMe 5y ago>Using it only on "bad guys" is a recipe for the government punishing people that disagrees with them. Indeed that's exactly how it is being used if it's true that they throw the book at public figures for making political statements like Wesley Snipes.
- rafale 5y agoDon't you also go to jail if you can't pay them?
- justanother 5y agoMaybe possible? But generally in that case when there was no fraud, you just get a bankruptcy-resistant lien that follows you to your grave, and whatever enforcement actions accompany liens. Generally again, absent fraud, they'll work out a high-interest installment plan.
- XorNot 5y agoOr you know...you could pay your taxes and stop stealing from the rest of us.
- KMnO4 5y ago> which is supposed to be a free country A common misconception. The United States takes the constitution seriously, but doesn’t even rank in the top 15 countries according to most freedom indexes.
- tonfreed 5y agoDepends what you value. You have to really look at what the freedom indices are using to rank countries.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoexactly.
- 542458 5y agoPopehat has an excellent article about this sort of thing. It’s really quite good. https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentence-eleventy-million-years/ https://www.popehat.com/2013/02/05/crime-whale-sushi-sentenc... The tldr is that the maximum sentence of all the crimes added up has very little to do with what most people would actually face.
- freedomben 5y agoNot just that but as a US citizen even if you aren't living in the US anymore you still have to pay US taxes. The 2014-2018 income taxes he owed were while staying abroad. The US forces you to renounce your citizenship to get out of paying taxes to a country you don't live in. IANAL but that's my understanding.
- Mirioron 5y agoAnd when you renounce your citizenship they tax your existing wealth.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- stjohnswarts 5y agoYeah I really never understood this, but they do mitigate it a bit as you can write off foreign taxes as a "cost" and greatly reduce your tax rate
- nvarsj 5y ago> The US forces you to renounce your citizenship to get out of paying taxes to a country you don't live in. Which you can't even do for the last year+, since all the embassies are closed to renunciations indefinitely.
- Uberphallus 5y agoEven more, a court may say that you're still US citizen even if you renounced, for the only purpose of being able to prosecute you.
- danSimmons42 5y agoThe US needs to aggressively collect these funds so that they can turn around and send a big portion of them to Israel. A constant threat of draconian enforcement ensures that Palestinian children can be blown up with the latest and greatest military hardware. And let's not kid ourselves, the US is not a free country. Any discussion of these issues are quickly shut down (via comment deletion and/or shadow banning).
- monetus 5y agoIf haven't noticed by the number of responses your comment has engendered, speaking in absolutes can come across as trolling. "You" don't justify anything; you live and affect the system you are born into. The united states are not united in what is desired from the "justice" system.
- syshum 5y agothe U.S. legal system is designed to ensure even innocent people plead guilty, it does this by coercing its victims with cruel punishments but then say "but if you just sign here and admit you did it we will agree to these much much lesser punishment"
- 0xbadcafebee 5y agoWhat does 'free country' even mean?
- fastball 5y agoAs a counterpoint, Germany uses fines much, much more as a punishment than the US, which can easily be seen as a regressive punishment – it is a punishment which is much worse for the poor than it is for the rich. Meanwhile prison is something both the poor and the rich want to avoid equally.
- DocTomoe 5y agoFines in Germany usually follow the "Tagessatz", which is the income of a day, as calculated based on your tax records (and other information). So you might be sentenced to pay 90 'daily incomes', which hits a poor person as badly as it does hit a rich person. Also note that there is a minimum amount of income that you always will be granted access to ('Pfändungsfreigrenze'), so a fine will not make you die from hunger nor make you homeless.
- mafuy 5y agoTrue in principle, but afaik the income is usually estimated (it is not measured precisely) a lot lower than its true value for wealthy persons. Still a better idea better than fixed fine amounts, of course.
- kiney 5y agopeople scraping on their salary are hit very hard by fines defined by "Tagessätze". But once someone is "poor enough" to hit the limit or anyway living on welfare they are very ineffective.
- VortexDream 5y agoPrison is far worse for the poor than it is for the rich. And the poor are far more likely to end up in prison over the most ridiculous crap in the US. In practice, the US's justice system is far worse for everybody but the rich.
- kiney 5y agofines in germany are completely ineffective against criminals on welfare. (and that's a problem)
- reedjosh 5y agoLol, free country. Also the country with the highest per capita imprisonment. I'm in the US. It's purely Orwellian double speak.
- aww_dang 5y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irwin_Schiff Not only did he die in prison, but he was banned from selling his books.
- cable2600 5y agoDon't forget that he ran for President as well, claiming to clean out the corruption in government with the information he had collected. Other politicians don't pay taxes and they aren't arrested.
- BatteryMountain 5y agoHe didn't want to end up like Julian Assange. Just speculation.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoProbably knew he would be watched much more carefully in the USA and had been biding his time and when he got the final notice decided that death was better than the American penal system and at his age that's probably true.
- stjohnswarts 5y agoSpain might have been his last chance. If he knew he was toast suicide might be the best option. I know if I was facing such an almost guaranteed conviction, rather than spend 30 years (or most likely much less) in prison I would just count it a win ( he had led a life on his own terms for the most part) and do the same.