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>2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a fundamental, biological identity and cannot be coopted by males. I'd wager that most people believe this.
by swebs 5y ago
>2. Feminists (TERFs) who believe being a woman is a fundamental, biological identity and cannot be coopted by males.
I'd wager that most people believe this. Not just feminists.
- ben_w 5y agoUnless I have wildly misunderstood you, I believe you would lose that wager: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Public-Opinion-Trans-23-Countries-Dec-2016.pdf https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/Pu...
- chc 5y agoPolling suggests otherwise: https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-support-self-identification-transgender-people-boris-johnson-gra-a9616136.html https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/uk-women-supp... https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/548775-new-poll-finds-americans-oppose-anti-transgender-laws-by-wide-margin https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/548775-new-poll...
- s1artibartfast 5y agoThere are a lot of shades of trans support, If you asked the most extreme questions you would probably get different answers. It is one thing to ask people should be able can use a bathroom, and another to ask questions about personal sexlife and behavior. i.e. if you asked people if you consider transwomen equally with women at birth as sexual partners, I bet the numbers fall through the floor.
- chc 5y agoWell, sure. If you ask people whether they consider Black and Asian men equally as sex partners, the numbers would also fall through the floor. This doesn't mean Black or Asian men are less of men, or even that they're necessarily against either of those groups, it just means people have preferences in what their partners' bodies are like. My point is just that "trans women are women and trans men are men" is actually a common opinion, contrary to the claim in the comment I was replying to.
- jl6 5y agoI think you may have missed the point in GP’s post. “Trans-women are women” is a common opinion in a casual context (like when greeting a colleague in an office), but in contexts where the stakes are higher (like when choosing a sexual partner), very few will treat trans-women as women.
- s1artibartfast 5y agoExactly my point. Many hold the philosophy that discriminating between the two in any context is an attack. Most heterosexual men identify as being attracted to women, and don't hold trans women in that category.
- chc 5y agoI don't think this conclusion is justified by the data, though. If this were just a matter of "they'll humor trans people, but everyone secretly knows trans women are men and treats them accordingly," you'd expect gay men to generally be attracted to trans women. But by all accounts I've heard, the people who are attracted to trans women tend to be straight men, just like any other woman. It's true that straight men are generally less likely to be attracted to trans women than cis women, but this just shows that being transgender is unattractive to them. Gay men are even less likely to be attracted to trans women, so it's clearly not as simple as "people actually perceive them as male and treat them accordingly."
- jl6 5y agoHere’s some actual data that suggests “trans women are women for dating purposes” is the opinion of only a small minority: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0265407518779139?journalCode=spra& https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026540751877913...
- chc 5y agoThis data supports my point. It does not say "trans women are treated as men for purposes of dating," it says "trans women are not broadly considered attractive." They specifically call out that few people of any sexual orientation want to date trans women. But those who are interested in dating trans women tend to be people who date women.
- swebs 5y ago54 percent of Americans believe "whether a person is a man or a woman is determined at birth". There is a wide partisan divide with 80 percent of Republicans agreeing (so probably not radical feminists) and only 34 percent of democrats agreeing. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender-issues-divide-republicans-and-democrats/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2017/11/08/transgender...
- mkr-hn 5y agoPolls have a way of shifting rapidly. People put down what they think they're supposed to put down. See how fast support for gay rights tilted as more people came out. Most people weren't really committed to homophobia, but they thought they were expected to seem to believe certain things. There's a name for the phenomenon: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pluralistic_ignorance
- 9wzYQbTYsAIc 5y agoThe scientific community, specifically the community that conducts science on this topic, currently has a distinction on the terms sex and gender. I’d posit the possible consensus position that the term sex refers to physical anatomy whereas gender refers to one’s gender role in interaction with others. For details on that distinction and attempts at consensus-building for the terminology, see https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysiol.00376.2005 https://journals.physiology.org/doi/full/10.1152/japplphysio... In software development terms, this topic has no ubiquitous language. In relation to your comment, their belief is not based in a shared reality.