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The funnel for junior software engineers is big but the tip of the funnel is narrow. Most of those who zip through it either went to a name-brand school or got

The funnel for junior software engineers is big but the tip of the funnel is narrow. Most of those who zip through it either went to a name-brand school or got hands-on experience with internships first. Everyone else is just trying to get lucky. On the cscareers subreddit there are a ton of people who either went through bootcamps or taught themselves how to code who have been searching for a role for a year - in the mean time doing personal projects, or trying to pick up some contract work - but no takers for full time salaried work. The true "shortage" is really for developers with 3+ years experience who can "hit the ground running". Most companies will only make limited commitment to junior engineers, favoring mid and senior level developers.

Animats 5y ago
The true "shortage" is really for developers with 3+ years experience who can "hit the ground running". Yes. Corporate management wants instant gratification. Not sending people to training classes. World's smallest violin plays.
- shagie 5y ago
  The flip side of this is the... > Team A hired a junior dev, onboarded them, six months later they were productive and left for another job. Between the costs of hiring, onboarding, and lost productivity for the rest of the team, and wages for the employee, we've realized a net loss of of $150,000. The lead and manager are saying if we were to hire another junior dev, it would set the project *back* by another quarter from its current delayed estimates. > Team B is still looking for a mid or senior to hire, but unlike team A they are only slightly delayed from the readjustments after taking into consideration not hiring someone. Yes, they'd like to have someone hit the ground running... but they'd really rather not incur losses and slipping estimates from losing employees.
  - Animats 5y ago
    So you have an employee retention problem. There's a sense of entitlement from many employers. They expect that the people they want will be available at short notice at the wages they want to pay. And that they won't have to fight to keep them. That seems to no longer be the case.
  - spamizbad 5y ago
    In my experience, I've never seen a Jr. engineer (as in first non-internship job) quit in 6 months. Thinking back, they've all been around for over a year, although they don't always stick around as much as more senior staff - which is fine.' If they are regularly turning over that fast that's a red flag that there's problem inside your org that need to be addressed.
    - shagie 5y ago
      I work in the public sector in the midwest... though I've also been in the private sector out here too. You've got a small, IT team which includes some bespoke software to keep local companies running... you know, the web pages or data processing requests. There's a SaaS product that's the regular income, but its not that much. You're paying competitively for the area - about 2x the average per capita income for the area for a junior dev (per capita income is $28k, you're paying $55k - compare; per capita income in Minneapolis is $40k (Glassdoor: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/eau-claire-software-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,10_IM259_KO11,29.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/eau-claire-software-devel... - make sure to look at the 0-1 years of experience)). Your clients are local companies in the neighboring counties. There's a new junior hire from the local college... and a few months later, their interviews for Amazon in Minneapolis pan out and they're gone. There's no way that you can compete with Amazon in Minneapolis. Is that a red flag that the small company can't pay Amazon wages? Should the small company close up shop instead? Do they try hiring another junior dev from a local college... to have them move to Minneapolis also? Or do they just put out a req for a mid or senior who wants to live in northern Wisconsin where you can go fishing after work on a small lake and settle down? All of the "you're not paying enough" means that the small companies are expected to pay big tech wages... and they can't. They close up shop and now the other clients are going to need to go to the larger consultancies for their work... or not do it at all. Yes, this is globalization played out with software developers... even if its just companies that are a few hours away by car for a move. This boils down to "can / should every developer be expecting to get wages equal to Amazon?" Can the company afford to pay the junior dev $70k? $80k? $90k? Likewise, "can you hire a junior dev with no real history of employment and have them stick around for a year when given alternative offers from a tech company?" If the answer is "no", then why are people complaining that these companies aren't hiring junior devs and training them and instead deciding to not incur extra costs while they wait for someone who will add to their team for a few years rather than a few months?
  - schwartzworld 5y ago
    I was a team A hire, and I did leave after 6 months. I probably would have stayed longer, but the only job willing to hire a junior paid 20k less than Glassdoor said juniors get in my area, and lied to me about when my first raise would come. Whose fault is it that I left after 14 months?
mwigdahl 5y ago
My experience has been that many, many untested juniors, whether they come from a 4-year CS program or a bootcamp, simply can't take a simple problem, break it down, and solve it with code on their own. I completely understand hiring managers that limit themselves to looking at devs with 3+ years of experience, because it tends to filter out folks that just can't do the basics of the job despite their credentials. Personally, I do like to hire juniors and help them grow their skills and their careers, but I need to see at least basic coding skills and a problem-solving mindset up front to make it worth the risk and the investment of time.

Animats 5y ago

The true "shortage" is really for developers with 3+ years experience who can "hit the ground running". Yes. Corporate management wants instant gratification. Not sending people to training classes. World's smallest violin plays.

shagie 5y ago
The flip side of this is the... > Team A hired a junior dev, onboarded them, six months later they were productive and left for another job. Between the costs of hiring, onboarding, and lost productivity for the rest of the team, and wages for the employee, we've realized a net loss of of $150,000. The lead and manager are saying if we were to hire another junior dev, it would set the project *back* by another quarter from its current delayed estimates. > Team B is still looking for a mid or senior to hire, but unlike team A they are only slightly delayed from the readjustments after taking into consideration not hiring someone. Yes, they'd like to have someone hit the ground running... but they'd really rather not incur losses and slipping estimates from losing employees.
- Animats 5y ago
  So you have an employee retention problem. There's a sense of entitlement from many employers. They expect that the people they want will be available at short notice at the wages they want to pay. And that they won't have to fight to keep them. That seems to no longer be the case.
- spamizbad 5y ago
  In my experience, I've never seen a Jr. engineer (as in first non-internship job) quit in 6 months. Thinking back, they've all been around for over a year, although they don't always stick around as much as more senior staff - which is fine.' If they are regularly turning over that fast that's a red flag that there's problem inside your org that need to be addressed.
  - shagie 5y ago
    I work in the public sector in the midwest... though I've also been in the private sector out here too. You've got a small, IT team which includes some bespoke software to keep local companies running... you know, the web pages or data processing requests. There's a SaaS product that's the regular income, but its not that much. You're paying competitively for the area - about 2x the average per capita income for the area for a junior dev (per capita income is $28k, you're paying $55k - compare; per capita income in Minneapolis is $40k (Glassdoor: https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/eau-claire-software-developer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,10_IM259_KO11,29.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/eau-claire-software-devel... - make sure to look at the 0-1 years of experience)). Your clients are local companies in the neighboring counties. There's a new junior hire from the local college... and a few months later, their interviews for Amazon in Minneapolis pan out and they're gone. There's no way that you can compete with Amazon in Minneapolis. Is that a red flag that the small company can't pay Amazon wages? Should the small company close up shop instead? Do they try hiring another junior dev from a local college... to have them move to Minneapolis also? Or do they just put out a req for a mid or senior who wants to live in northern Wisconsin where you can go fishing after work on a small lake and settle down? All of the "you're not paying enough" means that the small companies are expected to pay big tech wages... and they can't. They close up shop and now the other clients are going to need to go to the larger consultancies for their work... or not do it at all. Yes, this is globalization played out with software developers... even if its just companies that are a few hours away by car for a move. This boils down to "can / should every developer be expecting to get wages equal to Amazon?" Can the company afford to pay the junior dev $70k? $80k? $90k? Likewise, "can you hire a junior dev with no real history of employment and have them stick around for a year when given alternative offers from a tech company?" If the answer is "no", then why are people complaining that these companies aren't hiring junior devs and training them and instead deciding to not incur extra costs while they wait for someone who will add to their team for a few years rather than a few months?
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  I was a team A hire, and I did leave after 6 months. I probably would have stayed longer, but the only job willing to hire a junior paid 20k less than Glassdoor said juniors get in my area, and lied to me about when my first raise would come. Whose fault is it that I left after 14 months?

mwigdahl 5y ago

My experience has been that many, many untested juniors, whether they come from a 4-year CS program or a bootcamp, simply can't take a simple problem, break it down, and solve it with code on their own. I completely understand hiring managers that limit themselves to looking at devs with 3+ years of experience, because it tends to filter out folks that just can't do the basics of the job despite their credentials. Personally, I do like to hire juniors and help them grow their skills and their careers, but I need to see at least basic coding skills and a problem-solving mindset up front to make it worth the risk and the investment of time.