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What does turning the phone off solve? Can you not be compelled to turn it on? I always assumed a border agent in the US would simply insist you turn it on for

What does turning the phone off solve? Can you not be compelled to turn it on? I always assumed a border agent in the US would simply insist you turn it on for them, and you have no choice.

Scoundreller 5y ago
Depends on the country. In some places it’s a gray area as customs is allowed to search anything but that’s it. You’re not compelled to open/do anything for them. Yes, they could deny you entry if you’re a visitor, or they could seize it from you and give it back to you in pieces in 6 months, but if your encryption is good enough… Also reduced (but not eliminated) risk of surreptitious malware installation.
null0pointer 5y ago
On iPhone at least when you restart the phone it forces you to use the passcode to unlock the first time. I believe in the US passcodes are protected by the 5th amendment whereas face id or fingerprints are not. So while you can be compelled to unlock your phone with biometrics, you cannot be compelled with the passcode. Your milage may vary in other jurisdictions.
- alias_neo 5y ago
  And what is the implication for refusing in both cases, passcode vs biometrics? Is one likely to land you in hotter-water than the other due to the 5th protection? I also presume as a foreigner none of these protections would apply anyway?
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    I think the strategy would be to not use biometrics at all. As a foreigner, you still have rights. It is still US soil. You haven’t done anything illegal by asking to enter with your stuff, but you’ll probably be refused entry and maybe have your phone seized anyway meanwhile a US citizen would be allowed in, but might still be without their phone. I think you’re in-the-clear long-term if you asked to “withdraw your entry request into the USA”. At least that’s the advice I’ve heard if they ask start asking about any drug use history, if you have any, so that you’re not lying but also don’t get yourself banned from entering later. https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/pot-use-admission-at-u-s-border-snagging-canadian-boomers-says-lawyer-1.4640051 https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/pot-use-admission-at-u-...
  - ac29 5y ago
    If I understand it correctly, refusing either one could land you in detention (or jail) - law enforcement officers have a pretty broad ability to detain people for lawful investigations (or, what they beleive are lawful investigations). The difference is that you'd be released after refusing a passcode (but possibly having to appear in front of a judge with a lawyer), whereas the court could hold you in contempt (and jail) for refusing biometrics.
- Spoom 5y ago
  Same with Android (at least recent versions).
dangerbird2 5y ago
According to the EFF, in most cases, you can invoke your 5th amendment rights to prevent CBP from making you give up a password, particularly if you claim the content of the password (as opposed to the data the password is protecting) is personal and protected under the right to avoid self-incrimination. Of course, CPB has plenty of perfectly legal ways to get you to "voluntarily" comply: from making you miss your connecting flight, to putting you through enhanced security in the future, to denying entry if you're a non-resident. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/04/bill-rights-border-fifth-amendment-protections-account-passwords-and-device https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/04/bill-rights-border-fif...

What does turning the phone off solve? Can you not be compelled to turn it on? I always assumed a border agent in the US would simply insist you turn it on for them, and you have no choice.

Scoundreller 5y ago

Depends on the country. In some places it’s a gray area as customs is allowed to search anything but that’s it. You’re not compelled to open/do anything for them. Yes, they could deny you entry if you’re a visitor, or they could seize it from you and give it back to you in pieces in 6 months, but if your encryption is good enough… Also reduced (but not eliminated) risk of surreptitious malware installation.

null0pointer 5y ago

On iPhone at least when you restart the phone it forces you to use the passcode to unlock the first time. I believe in the US passcodes are protected by the 5th amendment whereas face id or fingerprints are not. So while you can be compelled to unlock your phone with biometrics, you cannot be compelled with the passcode. Your milage may vary in other jurisdictions.

alias_neo 5y ago
And what is the implication for refusing in both cases, passcode vs biometrics? Is one likely to land you in hotter-water than the other due to the 5th protection? I also presume as a foreigner none of these protections would apply anyway?
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  I think the strategy would be to not use biometrics at all. As a foreigner, you still have rights. It is still US soil. You haven’t done anything illegal by asking to enter with your stuff, but you’ll probably be refused entry and maybe have your phone seized anyway meanwhile a US citizen would be allowed in, but might still be without their phone. I think you’re in-the-clear long-term if you asked to “withdraw your entry request into the USA”. At least that’s the advice I’ve heard if they ask start asking about any drug use history, if you have any, so that you’re not lying but also don’t get yourself banned from entering later. https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/pot-use-admission-at-u-s-border-snagging-canadian-boomers-says-lawyer-1.4640051 https://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/pot-use-admission-at-u-...
- ac29 5y ago
  If I understand it correctly, refusing either one could land you in detention (or jail) - law enforcement officers have a pretty broad ability to detain people for lawful investigations (or, what they beleive are lawful investigations). The difference is that you'd be released after refusing a passcode (but possibly having to appear in front of a judge with a lawyer), whereas the court could hold you in contempt (and jail) for refusing biometrics.
Spoom 5y ago
Same with Android (at least recent versions).

dangerbird2 5y ago

According to the EFF, in most cases, you can invoke your 5th amendment rights to prevent CBP from making you give up a password, particularly if you claim the content of the password (as opposed to the data the password is protecting) is personal and protected under the right to avoid self-incrimination. Of course, CPB has plenty of perfectly legal ways to get you to "voluntarily" comply: from making you miss your connecting flight, to putting you through enhanced security in the future, to denying entry if you're a non-resident. https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/04/bill-rights-border-fifth-amendment-protections-account-passwords-and-device https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2017/04/bill-rights-border-fif...