5 ms·

When you can't fire bad apples, you end up with problems like the police force having violent cops or racist cops that make everyone look bad. Or you have teach

When you can't fire bad apples, you end up with problems like the police force having violent cops or racist cops that make everyone look bad. Or you have teachers that refuse to go back to work even though there are vaccines available to them. I think unions make sense in circumstances where a company has a monopoly granted by the government... For example Boeing. Boeing has completed a regulatory capture that makes it nearly impossible to launch competing airline building companies. Unions do not make sense where they do not have a counterparty to negotiate against... Basically there should be no unions for government employees because politicians generally already are willing to do the will of the workers over that of the best interests of the citizens. Unions also do not make sense in highly competitive spaces where if a company underpays or mistreats its employees, those employees can just switch jobs immediately.

germinalphrase 5y ago
I’m a union public school teacher. I am not protected from being fired, I simply must be given a PIP and I can request a Union lawyer help represent me in disciplinary meetings. This is after several years of at-will employment. If my boss wanted me gone next year, I would be.
- CryptoPunk 5y ago
  The statistics in New York at least are not encouraging: https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried-to-fire-154-teachers-for-incompetence-or-misconduct-75-were/ https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried... Going off-tangent: collective bargaining for teachers is also correlated with decreased lifetime earnings for males: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20170570 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20170570
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    I agree those numbers seems low for such a large staff, but the country is big and broad.
sudosysgen 5y ago
The reason why cops don't get fired isn't just unions. Union workers get fired all the time for much less. The reason cops don't get fired is political. If you fire a cop for a reason that the cops don't like, their political connections will come breathing down your neck. For some weird reason I "can't quite put my finger on", it's almost as if cop unions are uniquely different from other unions. Perhaps reading into why Union Federations never take in cop unions will help.
- truffdog 5y ago
  In my home school district, it took years (and many months of formal observers) to fire teachers who habitually came to work drunk or simply didn't do their job, and pre-tenure teachers would all get axed when the economy went downhill. Cop unions aren't that special.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    You're just describing tenure? If your high school has a tenure system, it's not a teacher issue, it's a systemic issues. Cop unions are incredibly special. The thing about cop unions is that they're the same everywhere, there is no city where cops are fired adequately for cause. There are plenty of cities where teachers can get fired. There is no profession with the same universal tolerance for abuse anywhere as cops. The reason has to do with their function as cops, not their labour union.
    - pverghese 5y ago
      You keep claiming everything else is an issue where the common denominator is unions themseleves.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        No? It isn't? Cops everywhere in North America have the issue of being unfireable despite literally committing crimes. Electricians don't have this issue. Both of them are highly unionized. So clearly the common denominator isn't unions. Even before their mass unionization cops were able to get away with far too much and they get away with far more than any other profession, unionized or otherwise.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
manquer 5y ago
Assuming that unions are actually bad for the economy at face value Is union is doing wonders for the officers and teachers the actual workers ? Making sure their rights and preferences are catered to ? Then the union is doing it's bloody job. If you are an employee at big co that is abusive or exploitative earning minimum wage then the government has already abandoned you . Should you then see the wider societal implications and scarifice your needs for greater good or actually say fuck that and unionize and try improve your quality of life and not have to pee in a bottle during work,(Amazon) or catch COVID-19 and die cause your company doesnt care (meat packing)? Even if it is bad for the economy/society unions still have been good for the actual workers as a group. We still have lot of work related deaths, long term issues and basic hygiene requirements missing, you absolutely need unions. The competition is not with low paying jobs in cheaper areas of US or cheaper countries like mexico or china. It is with automation and robots, you can't compete with that. Without strong worker representation employees of unskilled workforces like Amazon are going to face worsening conditions in the future as they are made to compete with automation

germinalphrase 5y ago

I’m a union public school teacher. I am not protected from being fired, I simply must be given a PIP and I can request a Union lawyer help represent me in disciplinary meetings. This is after several years of at-will employment. If my boss wanted me gone next year, I would be.

CryptoPunk 5y ago
The statistics in New York at least are not encouraging: https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried-to-fire-154-teachers-for-incompetence-or-misconduct-75-were/ https://www.the74million.org/article/investigation-nyc-tried... Going off-tangent: collective bargaining for teachers is also correlated with decreased lifetime earnings for males: https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20170570 https://www.aeaweb.org/articles?id=10.1257/pol.20170570
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  I agree those numbers seems low for such a large staff, but the country is big and broad.

sudosysgen 5y ago

The reason why cops don't get fired isn't just unions. Union workers get fired all the time for much less. The reason cops don't get fired is political. If you fire a cop for a reason that the cops don't like, their political connections will come breathing down your neck. For some weird reason I "can't quite put my finger on", it's almost as if cop unions are uniquely different from other unions. Perhaps reading into why Union Federations never take in cop unions will help.

truffdog 5y ago
In my home school district, it took years (and many months of formal observers) to fire teachers who habitually came to work drunk or simply didn't do their job, and pre-tenure teachers would all get axed when the economy went downhill. Cop unions aren't that special.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You're just describing tenure? If your high school has a tenure system, it's not a teacher issue, it's a systemic issues. Cop unions are incredibly special. The thing about cop unions is that they're the same everywhere, there is no city where cops are fired adequately for cause. There are plenty of cities where teachers can get fired. There is no profession with the same universal tolerance for abuse anywhere as cops. The reason has to do with their function as cops, not their labour union.
  - pverghese 5y ago
    You keep claiming everything else is an issue where the common denominator is unions themseleves.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      No? It isn't? Cops everywhere in North America have the issue of being unfireable despite literally committing crimes. Electricians don't have this issue. Both of them are highly unionized. So clearly the common denominator isn't unions. Even before their mass unionization cops were able to get away with far too much and they get away with far more than any other profession, unionized or otherwise.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

manquer 5y ago

Assuming that unions are actually bad for the economy at face value Is union is doing wonders for the officers and teachers the actual workers ? Making sure their rights and preferences are catered to ? Then the union is doing it's bloody job. If you are an employee at big co that is abusive or exploitative earning minimum wage then the government has already abandoned you . Should you then see the wider societal implications and scarifice your needs for greater good or actually say fuck that and unionize and try improve your quality of life and not have to pee in a bottle during work,(Amazon) or catch COVID-19 and die cause your company doesnt care (meat packing)? Even if it is bad for the economy/society unions still have been good for the actual workers as a group. We still have lot of work related deaths, long term issues and basic hygiene requirements missing, you absolutely need unions. The competition is not with low paying jobs in cheaper areas of US or cheaper countries like mexico or china. It is with automation and robots, you can't compete with that. Without strong worker representation employees of unskilled workforces like Amazon are going to face worsening conditions in the future as they are made to compete with automation