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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

• RobLach 5y ago
  Physical sport competition shouldn’t be separated by n number of genders, but by weight class.
  • peterhadlaw 5y ago
    Males and females have wholly different chemical, bone, and muscular structures.
    • k12sosse 5y ago
      It's an obvious answer but people are going to get upset over hearing it.
  • deleted 5y ago
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  • kazinator 5y ago
    I can't agree; the number of kilograms is too simplistic a parameter. I'd be more inclined to agree to some more sophisticated division that takes body composition into account. But that is still too simplistic if it is applied the same way in every sport. In some sports, mass is disadvantageous. In some sports, lean mass is advantageous, fat mass isn't. In some, raw mass is advantageous.
    • Theory5 5y ago
      Perhaps classes on ability necessary to the sport should be the only way to go?
      • kazinator 5y ago
        But that is futile, because ability necessary to the sport is what produces the results, i.e. rankings. So that amounts to just (1) everyone competing together as if there were one category, then (2) being ranked from winner to loser, and (3) we then declare that each rank is its own ability class, so everyone is a winner in their ability class! Bob is the winner of the #1 division, Amy is the winner of the #2 division, and so on. All the tuples of athletes who tied get to be in one class; e.g. if three people crossed the 10,000 meter finish at 29:13, they are in that ability class together, tying for that class' first place. :) :)
        • kelnos 5y ago
          Even if you don't go to the absurd extreme you pushed it to, it still doesn't work. Like, say you rank everyone from 1st to 50th, and then break everyone into five divisions (1st-10th, 11th-20th, and so on). Then you end up with perverse incentives. The #1 person in the 2nd division doesn't really want to work harder to move up to the 1st division, because they're likely to never get beyond 10th or 9th or so. And the 10th place holder in the 1st division might find it more prestigious to slow down a little to try to take the #1 spot of the 2nd division.
  • The_Amp_Walrus 5y ago
    Olympic weightlifting is already split into relatively thin weight brackets. I think the issue is that, pound for pound, men tend to be stronger than women In the 76-81kg womens bracket current record total (snatch + cnj) is 278kg. In the 73-81kg mens bracket the record total is 363kg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_weightlifting#Weight_classes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympic_weightlifting#Weight_c... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olymp...
    • leephillips 5y ago
      Men have a huge advantage in power and speed over women of the same weight; this is uncontroversial. This is not affected by reducing blood testosterone.
      • alvah 5y ago
        In a sane world this would be uncontroversial. In clown world, everything is up for grabs.
    • deleted 5y ago
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  • throw-8462682 5y ago
    Weightlifting is already separated by class. As I understand it, weight alone is not enough to create a “fair” competition. A historical use of steroids changes your body composition so that you have more strength at the same weight, even if the use was years ago. From the article the implication is that the same is true for testosterone, giving male to female transitioned people a unfair advantage (as long as transition was post puberty).
    • randallsquared 5y ago
      > the implication is that the same is true for testosterone Testosterone actually is one of the aforementioned steroids. The first sentence of the article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone (at the time of this comment) is > Testosterone is the primary sex hormone and anabolic steroid in males.
  • ape4 5y ago
    "Gender" is larger than biological sex - a distinction that normally doesn't matter. Wikipedia: Gender is the range of characteristics pertaining to, and differentiating between, femininity and masculinity. Depending on the context, these characteristics may include biological sex, sex-based social structures (i.e., gender roles), or gender identity.
    • k12sosse 5y ago
      So what's the word to describe what they are talking about. Go ahead and assume what it is they're getting at, and answer it for us.
    • SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
      I don’t know if that’s true or not. I know a lot of what you are saying first came from John William Money who… has a actually pretty evil history that should make everyone reevaluate the concepts [0]. I think the simple answer is we don’t know. We don’t know if you are right, we don’t know lots. But one thing we definitely do know is XY humans have more muscle mass and bone density on average than XX humans. It’s probably not fair to put them against each other because of internal identity claims. What is the hurry here? Why must we change women’s sports right now? Am I not told to “believe in science”? Where is the hard science on gender identity? [0] https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0061120561/ https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0061120561/
      • kbelder 5y ago
        This is a good example of how the popular narrative of the right being anti-science is wrong. Both 'sides' are absolutely anti-science on any topic where the science would be an uncomfortable truth for them. Republicans can't do climatology; Democrats can't do biology.
  • vnchr 5y ago
    What happens when physical sport competition results tend to favor 1 of the n number of genders? When it comes to powerlifting, I would bet on current or former members of one particular gender.
    • kazinator 5y ago
      That's the problem that division into genders is supposed to address. Currently we have n = 2. Results favoring one of the two genders is addressed by having separate categories with separate results: women's records, men's records.
      • tsherr 5y ago
        Rather than splitting by gender it should be split by sex, or birth sex, if you prefer.
        • kazinator 5y ago
          Everyone's relative chromosome string should be determined, like XXY and that should be the category, devoid of any loaded words like "man" or "woman". If you're XY, you don't get to got against XX athletes, regardless of the identity of anyone involved.
        • kelnos 5y ago
          The problem is that doesn't entirely work for trans women. Hormone therapy during their transition will reduce their performance to the point where they mostly can't be competitive with cis men anymore, while they'll still dominate against cis women.
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  • mensetmanusman 5y ago
    It will be interesting if it goes this route, e.g. title IV like regulations that end up destroying women’s sports and replacing it with human flesh weights.
  • pessimizer 5y ago
    As long as you're fine with excluding people who were born with the physical characteristics historically associated with the word "woman" from all sports, that will work. I don't think that can be the woke position, though. Women's sports are generally a carve-out. Women can't compete with men in most sports. Because of that, I don't think that women should be excluded from men's sports. "Men's sports" are just sports, and shouldn't be restrictive. Women's sports are a subset of sports where men have been excluded in order to give women a chance. If a woman is good enough to compete in "men's sports" she should (if she wants.) The opposite is not true. This is not a symmetrical situation. If transwomen are allowed to compete in women's sports, they will dominate women's sports.
    • Theory5 5y ago
      So your argument is that men are inherently superior to women in all physical aspects? Yea, no bias there...
      • SV_BubbleTime 5y ago
        All physical aspects? No probably not, the movements and motions that make up almost all sports? Yes, and that’s just reality. I am struggling to come up with any that women as a generalized block might be naturally better at. Maybe some fineness movements like some forms of dance or balance. Another user above nailed it, this is a newly self-inflicted problem.
        • Thorrez 5y ago
          I think women tend to be better than men at 200+ mile ultramarathons. https://www.insider.com/women-are-faster-long-distance-runners-estrogen-2020-1 https://www.insider.com/women-are-faster-long-distance-runne...
          • throwaway486165 5y ago
            It's not as simple as it seems, the insider article focuses on average pace, but if you look at race winners more often than not its still a man, this difference in average is probably due to the higher number of men completing with a higher variance in ability. I think it would be more truthful to say as distances increase the ability for women to complete with men also increases but we have not yet found a distance where women have a definite advantage. This BBC article covering this topic does much better at explaining the state of affairs: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49284389 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-49284389 This is in no way meant to disparage what any of these athletes, male or female. When it comes down to grim determination and pushing the human body to its very limits men and women are the same, but it is also telling that we need to get to this point of pain management and mental fortitude to level the playing field.
• Zababa 5y ago
  These kind of issues are really interesting because sports are by nature unfair, but it's been decided to remove part of the unfairness but now some is brought back in with that.
  • Taniwha 5y ago
    That's purely because the Olympics got rid of the poetry, town planning and similar events https://www.planetizen.com/node/87885/going-gold-when-town-planning-was-olympic-competition https://www.planetizen.com/node/87885/going-gold-when-town-p...
  • twic 5y ago
    A piece theorising "refinement culture" [1] points out that the Olympics have changed a lot since their invention and revival. Originally, they were a celebration of the human form. Now, they're about putting up the most extreme freak you can find. I didn't find the overall argument persuasive, but i thought that was interesting. [1] https://paulskallas.substack.com/p/refinement-culture https://paulskallas.substack.com/p/refinement-culture
• asdfasgasdgasdg 5y ago
  I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particularly in sports where strength differences are a large determiner of performance differences. If, as it is said in some circles, a full .5% of the human population is transgender, we are going to continue to see huge increases in openly transgender people competing in sport. In sports where long term exposure to male hormones enhance performance, it's hard to see how life-long XX bodies will be able to compete. Which seems like a bad outcome since the whole point of the existence of women's sport is to allow women to have space to compete without facing insurmountable built-in disadvantages. It may take a couple more decades but I don't see a stable equilibrium where MTF athletes are competing with cis-women in high level sport, especially if they made their transition during adulthood. I would be fascinated to hear about different models for how this plays out. I've read the occasional news article about it but I'm not really very familiar with the thinking on the other side of this issue, particularly when it comes to the physical advantages trans women have over cis women in sport.
  • trainsplanes 5y ago
    I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian subcontinent and culturally related areas have hijra. They're not seen as the same as women, but they're not seen as men either. They're something else, and it's okay. I've also seen a lot of westerners trying to push their ideas of gender globally and getting enraged when it doesn't fit. Some people get enraged when, for example, Thai kathoey aren't simply referred to as women, but for a lot of those people in Thailand, they don't see themselves as identical to women. So while trying to stop people from misgendering people, they overstep and misgender people who weren't being misgendered.
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• JoeyBananas 5y ago
  What is the argument in favor of allowing transgenders to compete in female sports? Does anyone actually defend this decision?
  • Theory5 5y ago
    Why wouldn't people support transgendered people able to be the gender they wish and being able to do so in all possible aspects? Be they transwomen wanting to play female sports, or transmen wanting to play male sports (which you oddly leave out of your question).
    • leephillips 5y ago
      People use “gender” to mean all kinds of different things. What do you mean by the word in your question? The second part is easy to explain: “Be they transwomen wanting to play female sports”. If by “transwomen” you mean biological males who have “transitioned” to women (more neutrally called “trans-identified men”), the answer is because they are not female, so it is unfair to allow them to compete with females.
    • devit 5y ago
      Because the fittest people with an expressed SRY gene (aka "biologically male") are generally 10-15% better at sports than those without it (aka "biologically female") so if you allow SRY-expressing MtF transgender people to compete in the female category against non-SRY cisgender female people (rather than only letting them competing in the male category), and there are enough of them at top levels, no cisgender woman will ever win anything. Also, this incentivizes male athletes that can't win medals but are close to take hormone replacement theory solely so they can compete in the much easier female category and win medals, which runs in the same arguments against doping. On the other hand, if you don't, then MtF transgender people are not likely to win anything, since hormone replacement therapy reduces performance (but not enough to match non-SRY people).
      • SilverRed 5y ago
        >incentivizes male athletes that can't win medals but are close to take hormone replacement theory solely so they can compete This might seem absurd but when you consider that they already go to extreme lengths to sneak in highly dangerous and life altering drugs just to win, I can see it happening.
• kazinator 5y ago
  I think sports categories should be chromosome strings. "XX division", "XY world record". "XXY 400 m finals", "XYY long jump trials", ... Gender identity doesn't factor into it at all; the words "man", "woman" should not be used. Problem solved; you don't get to wedge yourself into competition with XX persons if you're XY.
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  • hashmymustache 5y ago
    So the XX group on anabolic steroids won’t be an issue?
  • whatshisface 5y ago
    It might be better to have hormone classes in sports the way boxing has weight classes. You could have Mike Tyson class all the way through Betty White class, and as a side benefit you'd be able to put women's sports teams in with appropriately matched men. As another side benefit a lot of people who were simply born with the wrong stuff to compete could rise to the top of their class by hard work. Since there's not that much value in "gene grading" people, when all the heroism comes from training and dedication, getting away from the birth lottery sports system could be helpful to the sports documentary industry, along with the human soul. ;)
    • Zababa 5y ago
      Have classes for everything, this way everyone is in their own special class and everyone is a world champion. This way everyone will be happy right? /s
      • monstreums 5y ago
        Have classes for nothing, this way we can ignore those emaciated wannabes like Mayweather and Pacquiao and focus our attentions on the one true world champion of boxing, the man who has the bulk to back it. Classes are only there to give awards to inferior athletes for no reason right? /s
• Theory5 5y ago
  I don't know the history of all sports, but the few tidbits I know all point to sex/gender separation as being initially based on beliefs that women were inferior to men. From physical sports to mental ones like chess, sex separation was due to women not being seen as equal to men. I think its time to do away with separations on sex, and go with ones based on ability and size. Boxing does it with weight classes, why can't we do it with everything?
  • isoskeles 5y ago
    Go look up Olympic world records and compare the numbers for various events between men and women. It might not sound very nice, but women are on average physically inferior to men. At the top of any given objectively quantifiable sport, the best male athlete will beat the best female athlete, I'm guessing 99.99% of the time, although I don't know about all of the sports so some may give women an advantage I suppose.
    • hu3 5y ago
      Here's a recent study about the differences: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 > Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Sports organizations should consider this evidence when reassessing current policies regarding participation of transgender women in the female category of sport.
  • seabird 5y ago
    Women would be crushed. As far as physical sports at the highest levels of play are concerned, women are inferior to men. That's not to say that women are lesser because of it, but that's just how it goes. Karsten Braasch (peaked out at around 40th worldwide) beat both of the Williams sisters (both rank 1 players) back-to-back. He was twice their age and known for smoking cigarettes during changeovers. Male weightlifting records are hundreds of pounds higher than women's records. There are thousands of male sprinters who have posted a better time than the _world record_ female sprinter. I don't think there's even any data to compare men vs. women in combat sports like boxing because anybody who has ever paid any attention to sports can tell you it's an awful idea. Yeah, we could do away with the separations, as long as you can accept that women will almost always take the back-seat at high levels of play.
• russellbeattie 5y ago
  Everyone should agree that it's fundamentally unfair for biological males to compete against biological females in most sports. But the problem is any strict rules against this will lead to discrimination in so many other areas, I'm basically willing to look the other way as it's such a rare occurrence anyways. How many trans athletes are there? It's very sad that this is a political issue - it makes any reasonable solution impossible. Any restrictions that liberals might find practical and fair (like a ban on competing where muscles are involved) will inevitably be used by conservatives to justify bigotry and prejudice in a number of other areas (exclusion from public bathrooms, for example, or even restrictions based on race, nationality or sexuality).
  • fallingknife 5y ago
    The line between competition and everything else is pretty black and white.
  • hirundo 5y ago
    When a trans athlete wins an Olympic gold medal, it will surely encourage more to try. As rare as they might be, they could easily come to dominate at the elite level in strength and speed events, and crowd out women who don't have the hormonal advantages.
  • jl2718 5y ago
    During the men’s 1500 freestyle heats it was noted the Katie Ledecky would have had the top seed by a significant margin if she were to compete with the men. Similar things sometimes happen in ultra running. I wonder if intersex competition in endurance sports would bring out more greats from the women. As a spectator sport, I think audiences would go crazy for an event with no distinction between sexes and equal chances of winning.
• jezzzabell 5y ago
  It's an interesting one. Considering that the athlete competed as a junior I assume she also tried to get in to the Olympic team prior to her transition but was unsuccessful. Now she is ranked 4th in the world for her division. As I see it there's only two possible reasons for her current success despite being 43. That transitioning has not nullified all advantages or that the number of women weightlifters is lower and thus less competitive. Most likely some combination of the two. Another interesting aspect is that New Zealand now has a much better chance to get a medal in this event. Given the importance that some countries give to winning the games, e.g China and Russia, might they push to have more MtF athletes of their own.
  • strange_loops 5y ago
    > Given the importance that some countries give to winning the games, e.g China and Russia, might they push to have more MtF athletes of their own. Are you suggesting that they might force some of their athletes to transition in order to gain an advantage at the olympics? These societies are not friendly to trans people in general, so I have some doubts they would elevate people who pursued transition themselves.
• hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  I thought Anna Vanbellinghen was very well said. It's not about questioning someone's identity, or their right to live openly. But this is about acknowledging physical reality. One thing I'd like to add is that this is, by definition, a hard problem. The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. Anyone who says that the "other side" in this situation (regardless of which side they are on) is being idiotic is ignoring a lot of inconveniently difficult truths.
  • acituan 5y ago
    > The fact is sex and gender exists on a continuum, even if 99% of the time it seems binary. I was with you until this statement. Sex is a millions-of-years-old discrete variable; it depends on whether you could produce the bigger gamete (called egg) or the smaller one (sperm). Gender is a continuous variable with a strongly bimodal distribution.
    • jl6 5y ago
      This debate butts up against the limitations of language and it is necessary to take care to define terms. This definition will be more or less useful depending on what you are trying to communicate. “Sex” could be interpreted to mean a statement about chromosomes, in which case there are more than two variants. Or it could be interpreted to be a statement about reproductive potential, in which case the “two sexes” model is a better fit, because there’s no intermediate gamete between sperm and egg. Do intersex conditions break this model? Almost always not: the variations of sex development are variations on the male pattern and the female pattern. Are there exceptionally rare individuals that defy categorisation? Surely there are, but the existence of extreme, rare outliers doesn’t invalidate the model. Which definition is most useful? In the context of women’s rights, it’s clearly the latter. Women suffer discrimination based on their reproductive biology, not based on their chromosomes. It’s also the model that the vast majority of people use as their everyday working definition of sex. So I think anyone who wants to claim there are more than two sexes must accept the responsibility to qualify their terminology.
      • 5y ago
• eric4smith 5y ago
  Yup - finally this has reached the point where gender politics crashes into reality. I’m not against any gender doing what they wish. But really, the point is when you (by nature) have testosterone coursing through your bloodstream… even if you transitioned, by the very nature of things you have an advantage of strength, agility, speed and desire over your female peers. As much as we would love to believe it, men are wildly physically different from women. And that’s how nature intended it for whatever reasons nature intended. You can see it in the sports stats very clearly for every sport where women and men compete. Men and woman are not the same and can never be. Each has strengths and weaknesses which make them fit very well together. I understand the need to transition. But sports is one of those examples that we can’t put our head in the sand and believe we live in a world of make-believe.
  • slg 5y ago
    >by the very nature of things you have an advantage of strength, agility, speed and desire over your female peers. By the very nature of things LeBron James has an advantage of strength, agility, and speed over me. (no clue why you included desire in your comment) Basically every elite athlete is born with a genetic predisposition to be better at their sport than the average person. It takes a lot of determination and training to reach that full potential, but let's not pretend that people are born on equal footing.
    • eric4smith 5y ago
      Ummmmm - we are talking about the differences between men and women. Not Lebron and you. Also it’s been very well proven that testosterone leads to more desire/ambition call it what you will. Women who take testosterone generally report feeling more ambitious and have more sexual desire as a by product.
    • SilverRed 5y ago
      This is true but if we work with this line of logic, we should just remove the gender split in sports and make it purely a game for the best of the best. What this means is that most females will be removed from sport since they can't compete with the average male athlete. Society has spoken already and decided they want to see female athletes which is why many male only sports have started their own female only sides. This is a truly unfortunate edge case where trans people have an unfair advantage on one gender side and an unfair disadvantage on the other side. Perhaps the only fair way to do things would be to have trans only teams but the numbers probably don't work out. Or to have trans people pick sports where physical strength is not at play like motor racing, shooting, chess, etc.
• brodouevencode 5y ago
  I’m curious as to what the biologically female competitors think about this.
  • kelnos 5y ago
    That is literally what this article is: a cis-female weightlifter speaking against this.
    • yerwhat01010 5y ago
      And she's just the one who was brave enough to speak out. Considering that voicing your support for Hubbard comes with basically no personal or professional cost, while voicing your opposition can cost you dealy, I'm going to assume that since most people have remained silent then the majority agrees with Anna Vanbellinghen.
    • brodouevencode 5y ago
      But there was only one, and it was brief at that. I'd like to get a sense of what the others think as well.
  • SilverRed 5y ago
    Don't imagine they would be thrilled when the current situation is that no matter how hard you try, you will never come close to winning as a biological female https://i.redd.it/vv4ws1848t671.jpg https://i.redd.it/vv4ws1848t671.jpg
• hypnoscripto 5y ago
  If this is an issue for all MTF weightlifters, would it be reasonable to disqualify someone only if they had previously competed at the same level as a male?
  • rantwasp 5y ago
    i don’t think you need to have competed before to have a huge advantage induced by hormones that were normally biologically there. The real question is: where do we draw the line? if a female athlete injects herself with hormones that give her an unfair advantage should this be considered cheating and be grounds for disqualification?
    • beerandt 5y ago
      No- but you do see a similar restriction with pro athletes not being able to play as an amateur, partially due to the experience of competing at a higher level. This isn't that different.
  • ffggvv 5y ago
    pretty sure if you take any random 250lb male that plays football or something they could be the number one female lifter in the world if they identify as a female for an hour. so not sure if that disqualification would matter
    • hypnoscripto 5y ago
      I don't think that's really relevant. In no world are people without medical treatment going to be considered, and no one is going to go through that just to win a medal.
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• jp0d 5y ago
  This is a very controversial topic. Many have spoken about it at length. I personally believe it's not fair for women in athletics. There are several excellent suggestions/solutions discussed on this thread. I feel like there needs to be another category which would include people who're naturally male/female/others and/or identify as something/someone else. And keep the existing male and female categories as they are. And of course it goes without saying that I've written this with all due respect to such individuals and I bear no malice towards anyone.
  • chitowneats 5y ago
    It doesn't go without saying. Which is why you said it. The pro-trans movement starts from the assumption that any disagreement with their ideology is "harm". They've bullied everyone into accepting what is transparently a ridiculous situation; often by alleging bad faith. I'm very happy to see someone from professional women's weightlifting refer to this as a "bad joke".
    • vore 5y ago
      "Ideology"? Is it unfathomable to you that people would reasonably be able to feel that they have a different biological gender to how they feel in their mind? And that people cavalierly dismissing their acceptance in society is somehow not harmful? If you want to talk respectfully about the implications of transgender athletes in sport, that's one thing. But what you are doing is not that. You're trying to dismiss the plight of trans people at large.
      • mssundaram 5y ago
        I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?
        • leephillips 5y ago
• nimbleal 5y ago
  I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the terms here but — “sex” not on “gender”. And no sport is trans exclusionary as far as I know: the person in question in this article would be welcomed everywhere to compete against other biological males, and any biological female would be welcome to compete against others of their sex whatever they identify as (so long as they haven’t taken testosterone). I’m not sure I understand why this has become an issue.
  • uniqueid 5y ago
    sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.
    • nerdponx 5y ago
      I agree, but unintended consequences abound. I wonder how this would apply in sports that don't typically have weight classes, like track & field. I imagine you'd start seeing athletes in pretty much every sport cutting weight like in boxing and wrestling, which I don't think is a healthy outcome. Are we at a level of biological science yet to create reliable divisions/classes on anything more sophisticated? And what about non-professional sports in schools?
      • rjmunro 5y ago
        The Paralympic movement does something like this, and it's hard, e.g. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57404811 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-57404811. There's actually a campaign in wheelchair tennis to allow players who don't actually need a wheelchair to be allowed to compete. https://www.theaccessibleplanet.com/able-bodied-playing-wheelchair-tennis/ https://www.theaccessibleplanet.com/able-bodied-playing-whee...
• travisgriggs 5y ago
  Spectator Sports: the act of deriving hope, happiness, failure, elation, frustration, and other emotions from the actions of others. See also: performing arts. Competitive Sport: the act of determining your performance and subsequent identity/categorization by arbitrary comparison with other arbitrary individuals. Here's an idea. Let's just let weightlifters lift weights. They can compare themselves to their previous efforts and broadcast their successes by beating their own PRs. If people want to find some sort of vicarious happiness from observing this process, set up (monetize) their efforts with something like Twitch. For every thousand hacking at the leaves...
  • gameman144 5y ago
    This is a great idea in theory, but human nature is a pretty strong driver to be the best, fastest, strongest, and winningest when competing against others. Competition is hard-wired into us, and I'm skeptical that systems that strip that out will be viable or entertaining in the long term.
• fumeux_fume 5y ago
  The idea that an athletic competition--conferring a first, second and third place, holds any substantial meaning at all is completely absurd. All other controversy simply flows from this fact.
  • vore 5y ago
    Unfortunately, as a society, we've allowed people to tie their livelihoods to it: people spend their lives training for competitions and the prestige of winning them can directly contribute to their livelihoods through income from deals with sponsors, etc.
    • morsch 5y ago
      As long as there's agreement that it's unfortunate, we can discuss ways to dismantle the system in a way that doesn't destroy the livelihoods of many people. But I'm afraid most people don't agree that it's unfortunate.
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  • lotsofpulp 5y ago
    Everyone knows that 99% of life is not under your control. But it can still be entertaining to design games around the (supposed) 1% that is under your control.
  • aesyondu 5y ago
    This depends entirely on each individual. Mike Tyson referred to his championship belts as "garbage". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgcHBcQRlpw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgcHBcQRlpw
• makeworld 5y ago
  I encourage anyone interested in this subject to read this[0] article, it is a comprehensive analysis of the subject. If not the whole thing, at least the final sections "Recommendations and Conclusions" and "Executive Summary". It really underlines how complex this is. [0]: https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gender-and-fairness-in-sport/ https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/shades-of-gray-sex-gend...
• mrwww 5y ago
  What if women compete with/against men based on weight, or perhaps muscle mass class or something like that, could a gender-neutral competition be possible?
  • ffggvv 5y ago
    for the same weight, males will have more upper body strength due to basic physiology. idk what muscle mass class is. i feel like it strongly depends on the competition in question. i doubt it with weightlifting. but women clearly have an advantage in gymnastics
    • throwaway210222 5y ago
      > but women clearly have an advantage in gymnastics Really? The internet went mad when Simone Biles did the Yurchenko double pike. Men have been doing it for at least 20 years.
  • hackflip 5y ago
    Men would still win 99% of the time.
• Gatsky 5y ago
  I always thought this category of problem would become acute when people with a disability became sufficiently augmented (with an advanced prosthesis for example) that they could compete with and eventually beat non-disabled athletes. At that juncture it would be necessary to create a new kind of Olympics for augmented people, because nobody wants to box with someone who has a terminator arm.
  • Leherenn 5y ago
    This happened already with Oscar Pistorius.
  • bootlooped 5y ago
    I think we already had that occur to some degree https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Pistorius
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• jeremybms 5y ago
  One possibility that could potentially work for certain sports, like weightlifting, where the competition is solely in terms of individual records, would be to do away with the existing division by weight and male/female and instead introduce a handicap model based on measured characteristics. For example, all players might be required to have blood testosterone levels recorded at regular intervals starting from a young age, and these measurements, along with characteristics like weight and height, could serve as inputs to the handicap model. The handicap model would be updated each year; potentially the model used in a given Olympic event for a given year could even be updated based on the results recorded in that same year. Of course there are a lot of practical issues, and even if they were overcome, it is unclear that the results would be satisfying.
  • raverbashing 5y ago
    This is actually a good idea in some scenarios For example, several sports have weight classes which are of course "abused" (as in, the athlete will do as much effort to fit onto a lower class - going through severe diets and dehydration) Now if instead of weight you would measure "fat free mass" and maybe height, this would leave much less margin for maneuvers. (Or, ok, you could re-weight the athlete just before the competition and disqualify them if there's a bigger difference from the weighting date - that would work as well)
  • nerdponx 5y ago
    Makes sense for the Olympics or Worlds, but what about amateur competitions? High school wrestling leagues can't exactly start doing this stuff.
    • tzs 5y ago
      If you base it on trying to measure biological characteristics that we know (or think we know) affect performance, you are right--it would be impractical for all but leagues that the top athletes compete in. If you made it based on past performance, though, it should be doable in even small amateur leagues. That's how it works in chess. When you play tournament chess you get a rating based on your performances and the ratings of the established players you played. Large tournaments use the "Swiss system". In round 1, you sort the players by rating, split the list in two, and the top rated player in the first list plays the top rated list in the second, and so on. In subsequent rounds, you sort the players by results so far, split the list into separate lists for each score group, and then within each score group the top half by rating plays the bottom half. Large tournaments typically have prizes for the top scores, but also "class" prizes. A class prize is for the top scores in certain rating ranges, say under 1800 or under 1200. A big tournament like the US Open might have a whole slew of class prizes, such as top score in under 1200, [1200, 1400), [1400, 1600), [1600, 1800), [1800, 2000). There are women's chess tournaments but that is because much fewer women take up chess, and often women are uncomfortable if they are the only woman in a competition, especially at the scholastic level. That environment can affect their performance due to "stereotype threat". When you are doing something in public that goes against a negative stereotype about your group you can feel a lot of pressure to avoid confirming the stereotype, and that extra pressure can actually make it harder for you to do your best. That in turn further discourages women from taking up tournament chess.
• ffggvv 5y ago
  if sex is a social construct and men and women are exactly the same then let’s just get rid of distinction between male and female sports and combine them. women will never come in the top 100 again for the vast majority of sports, but it’ll force people to reconcile the contradictions they claim. or maybe they’ll just say sports are sexist
• sundvor 5y ago
  I understand that anabolic steroids give a life long advantage in terms of muscle memory. Anyone who's done some semi serious lifting and then gone on a long break to return will know that progress is much faster the Nth time around. This explains why those who have taken steroids will have a life long advantage: Eg https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190125084106.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/01/190125084106.h... I also understand that the male puberty imprints into the muscle development for life. As such, two opinionated observations: 1) Once you've done steroids you should be banned from high level competitions for life, not just 4 years or what. 2) Allowing someone who has experienced and lifted weights through and after male puberty to compete against those who have not is grossly unfair to cisgendered female lifters. See point 1.
  • a-and 5y ago
    Fully agree with your second point. Your first point touches on why it's such an interesting and difficult problem to solve. 1. Country-wide doping systems that currently exist in weightlifting. Punishing an individual lifter does little to disincentivize doping at a larger scope. A country's sports organization can just take on the next Olympic hopeful (or buy another country's). Alternatively whole countries' participation can be banned, punishing clean athletes. 2. WADA testing is largely inconsistent across the world. You can take a look at the doping reports [here](https://www.iwf.net/anti-doping/statistics/ https://www.iwf.net/anti-doping/statistics/) and compare e.g. Iranian athletes to others. 3. "Steroids" is a big bucket. Weightlifting even now has devolved into a race to design the best undetectable compound. The IWF is already in trouble with the IOC for so many positive tests - I'm really curious to see how things develop and whether weightlifting ends up splitting into tested/untested federations like powerlifting.
    • sundvor 5y ago
      Thanks, appreciated that information about doping. It sure is a tricky subject in weightlifting; someone actually relatively clean (ie doing their best to only take approved or at least non banned supplements) their entire life would likely be considered at a disadvantage? I'll read up on your resources - and yes, different rules across regions would be a big one. Personally I just take Creatine and WPI, but I'm only training for functional fitness as a desk bound software engineer. Still, it's a very interesting topic; I do know someone who competes at a national level, and the routines and regimes are punishing.
• syngrog66 5y ago
  the most elegant and fair solution to problems like this is to eliminate all gender distinctions in sports and collapse all leagues, competitions and record categories into a unified human category. let the best human win, regardless of their birth gender, sex preference, or sex organs at moment. yes, there will be certain sports or events that will tend to favor male. but there will be some that favor female. let the chips fall where they may. it will still be limited to humans, regardless. its not like human athletes will have to worry how they will compete in the Olympics in swimming against dolphins or sharks. Humans wont have to compete in sprinting against cheetahs or gazelles. wrestling against gorillas, etc.
  • yerwhat01010 5y ago
    > there will be some that favor female. Which sports are these? In which physical sports do women have an advantage over men? Can you name one?
    • syngrog66 5y ago
      honestly, offhand I do not know. I'd guess anything where hip area strength is critical. male bodies are at an advantage in terms of overall muscular and bone structure. the larger point is its wiser to treat it as a competition between individuals. because. anytime we exclude someone based on non-individual traits then it means we are discriminating against them. and "discrimination is bad", no matter what.
      • yerwhat01010 5y ago
        > "discrimination is bad", no matter what. Really? The most basic definition of "discrimination" is "to note or distinguish as different." Are you saying we should never be allowed to observe that, in reality, sometimes two things really are different from each other?
    • unrealhoang 5y ago
      It's not even limited to physical, there's a vast discrepancy between male and female in non-physical competition like chess and esport as well.
• b0rsuk 5y ago
  I don't have a big problem with people who "identify as" someone else. I have a big one with people who insist that *I* must call them in a particular way. It clashes with the idea that freedom of one person stops where freedom of another person starts. What about my right to call another person as I see them? This is invasive. I'm not telling them how to live - they are. This is *gaslighting* and promoting *taboos*. Margaret Thatcher once said: "Being powerful is like being a lady. If you have to tell people you are, you aren't." https://pbfcomics.com/comics/bear-boy/ https://pbfcomics.com/comics/bear-boy/
  • kristopolous 5y ago
    > I have a big one with people who insist that I must call them in a particular way. It clashes with the idea that freedom of one person stops where freedom of another person starts So this would also apply to say, racial slurs and personal insults. Calling someone a name or the n-word instead of their name, that's a freedom? What about antisemitic slurs or insulting disabled people? How about just referring to women as sex objects, that's also within that rule. As well as doing the same for children or the deceased. You don't expect people to be insulted by such things? Are you serious? I don't think you actually mean what you say.
    • textgel 5y ago
      You don't have the right not to be offended. No matter how many times you ask.
      • kristopolous 5y ago
        Huh? So say, sexually fetishizing children in front of their parents is a freedom? That's actually a crime, you know that, right, it's not freedom of speech. Using racial slurs is a crime in most environments as well. There is no right to say arbitrary things in front of arbitrary people. That's actually not a thing. It's not "your freedom" that's being violated, there never was one there to begin with here.
        • 5y ago
• clearcarbon 5y ago
  Transgender inclusion in sport has brought to the front that sports are inherently unfair. Wherever you draw the lines there is someone thats going to be just the other side of that line. Trans people have been allowed compete in sports for the last 18 years, however this is the first trans athlete to make it to the olympics, this seems to suggest that trans people competing in sports has not pushed IFAB people out of sports to any significant degree, especially not at the highest levels of competition.
• yoz-y 5y ago
  At some point we need to stop and realise that some problems just don’t have a solution that is going to please everybody. In this case there is an option to annihilate hopes and dreams of either transgender athletes, or women. Both options suck, but the second one affects disproportionately more people.
  • strange_loops 5y ago
    How many minorities are you willing to apply this to? And in how many areas of life and society?
    • yoz-y 5y ago
      Very few, I'd even say that I have no other example in mind at the moment. I'm not saying that we should not strive to find the most equal way of solving all problems, just that some just don't have a good answer. These should go by the way of least damage.
    • CRConrad 5y ago
      Sounds like you are willing to apply it to non-trans women?
• fruityrudy 5y ago
  Imagine a giant athlete the size of Arnold Schwarzenegger at his peak decides to transition and has to match a testosterone level to compete. Lol. It’s ridiculous.
  • Jcowell 5y ago
    My question would be what would happen? Would he retain all of his strength or would the transition render him the strength we expect of a woman who also trained like he did. It seems weird to me that we say such things as if we definitely know the outcome. I must have missed a Science class where this was taught or maybe it’s coming sense? Is there even a paper study these results?
    • kuschku 5y ago
      There are many papers on this actually, and generally, within of 2 years, all the advantages testosterone had for the muscles is gone. The only advantage that remains is muscle memory, but people who train on steroids, quit, wait a few years, and then train normally have the same advantage.
    • ohgodplsno 5y ago
      There absolutely is: being born a man gives you some physical advantages that are not just linked to testosterone. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-020-01389-3 Longitudinal studies examining the effects of testosterone suppression on muscle mass and strength in transgender women consistently show very modest changes, where the loss of lean body mass, muscle area and strength typically amounts to approximately 5% after 12 months of treatment. Thus, the muscular advantage enjoyed by transgender women is only minimally reduced when testosterone is suppressed. Additionally, women are naturally less muscilar than men.We're talking 50% less fiber surface, 30% less muscles in total, and even a difference in the type of fibers: significantly fewer type 2 fibers, which are the ones that give your muscles explosiveness. https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00235103 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF00235103
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• spicyramen 5y ago
  Very simple, men are biologically different than women. Anything else is subjective. When did we stop using science to protect women?. This is nuts. Hope they ban this guy, that's cheating
• pwim 5y ago
  Radiolab did an interesting piece on gender and sports a couple years back. https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/dutee https://www.wnycstudios.org/podcasts/radiolab/articles/dutee Gender is a nuanced thing, and there's no way to definitively divide people into the male and female categories. The episode explores the story of Dutee Chand, a professional sprinter who for a time was not allowed to compete as a women due to her hyperandrogenism, a condition that leads to unusually high levels of testosterone.
• malthaus 5y ago
  Almost everybody at olympic level takes testosterone and other "supplements". They either dodge testing, use untestable substances or take it right up to the allowed thresholds. Given that, categories in competitions should be based on different bands of hormone levels etc, taking gender/sex out the discussion completely and also helping with this ridiculous projected view that there's no doping going on.
  • yerwhat01010 5y ago
    In other words, you want to abolish women's sports. At least you admitted it clearly.
• shapefrog 5y ago
  White (genetic) male wins olympic womens gold medal. White male privelage at work once again, or are they just better at being women than women are?
• amarant 5y ago
  So how about a third class/sex? We have male competitions, female competitions, why can't we have transgender competitions? Seems to me to be the simplest, fairest solution, given that hormone treatments might give a person an unfair advantage that we're trying to keep out of male and female sports, but that are inherently impossible to avoid in transgender sports.
  • wreath 5y ago
    There arent many trans people to compete to begin with, so this wouldnt make much sense in terms of organization and competition. would you watch a weightlifting tournament with only three people competing? This wouldnt get much media coverage to make up for costs even.
  • _Nat_ 5y ago
    I'd guess that people who aren't clearly male/female would probably tend to be grouped in the more competitive category. For example, say that an intersexed-athlete (not simply male nor female) plays two sports: one where males are seen as advantaged and another where females are seen as advantaged. Then, the intersexed-athlete would probably compete in the male-category in the male-advantaged sport while simultaneously being in the female-category in the female-advantaged sport.
    • amarant 5y ago
      I really like this actually, it's the least unfair to any of the competitors (male, female or transgender) and the implication that transgender people are the best of both worlds is about as inclusive as it gets.
• kristopolous 5y ago
  This has become the perennial "test case" to use in order to frame generalized trans discrimination. It's an outlier that's being pushed in as a substitute to set the framing for the entire discussion as if broad policy should be generalized from an extreme outlier. This is the same tactic that was used to argue against gay marriage, finding some unusual extreme event and then trying to substitute it as commonplace. Isolate these things. It honestly shouldn't bleed into mainstream discussion. This is a slight of hand substitution. Transgendered status doesn't affect 99% of human interaction. I easily might have worked with or been neighbors to a trans person for years and never known it. You could have worked with many yourself. You've probably worked or lived next to somebody for years and then found out they were LGBTQ and were like "well that's actually pretty irrelevant" just like how our grandparents would freak out if they were, say, Catholic or married to a foreigner. It's not a big deal. I refuse to outsize the tiny isolated cases where it matters, it's a propaganda technique. No thanks
  • herodoturtle 5y ago
    From the article: > Of course, this debate is taking place in a broader context of discrimination against transgender people, and that is why the question is never free of ideology. However, the extreme nature of this particular situation really demonstrates the need to set up a stricter legal framework for transgender inclusion in sports, and especially elite sports. You say: > It's an outlier that's being pushed in as a substitute to set the framing for the entire discussion as if broad policy should be generalized from an extreme outlier. That's not at all what the article is saying. The article is specifically talking about this particular situation.
    • kristopolous 5y ago
      It's a political football. An internal technicality of an institutions rules committee being presented as an international debate is the politicizing thing here. This inflation is done all the time to push a political agenda. The "welfare queen" to ban humanitarianism, Willie Horton to create the modern carceral state. This is super common. Most of the time it fails, like with Garcia Zarate or Juan Leonardo Quintero to try to demonize all Hispanic immigrants. The first to cover this was far right rags like dailywire and newspunch in 2017 or so. Is this new to you?
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• dncornholio 5y ago
  This problem is made artificial difficult. It's simple: born as a man? Sport like a man. Born as a women? Sport like women. Gender in sport is not about identity, it's about biology. Also it creates a huge backdoor to Olympic gold medals. There's nothing that stops turning the female category into all transgender..
  • jean_tta 5y ago
    Should FtM people, taking testosterone, compete with cis-women?
    • octopaulus 5y ago
      Which sports? I wish trans men good luck competing against born male athletes
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    • dncornholio 5y ago
      If those testosterone's are not a banned substance, then sure. Why not?
      • CJefferson 5y ago
        Those testosterone are absolutely a banned substance. FtM transgender people would dominate many female sports.
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      • jean_tta 5y ago
        Testosterone is a banned substance because it is a performance-enhancing drug.
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• 74d-fe6-2c6 5y ago
  In my opinion there should no longer be any restrictions based on gender at all. Statistics will show that people with male primary genitalia will do better in some sports while in others those with mostly female primary genitalia will be advantaged. I don't see the problem and I think this differentiation is antiquated. In short: stop differntiating between men, women, transgender, transsexual, men identifying as women, women identifying as men - just bunch them up together and call it a day.
• toto444 5y ago
  In the case of weightlifting you could add a handicap for fairness (if I remember correctly that is where the term handicap comes from). If men can on average men lift about, say, 1.5 as much as women then you can penalize transgender female by a factor of 0.66. The choice of the factor might be a bit arbitrary but that could be a relatively good compromise. (Note : my terminology may be wrong but I think the meaning is clear)
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• deadite 5y ago
  You knew this would happen, didn't you?
• globular-toast 5y ago
  Let's consider getting rid of gendered sports entirely. Even women don't like women's sports as much as men's sports. Why would they? It's like watching the kids' league. Or like a bad B movie when you could be watching a Hollywood movie. You might say, well then women will have no chance of ever being involved in those sports at that elite level, and you'd be right. But 99% of men have no chance of being involved in them either. We're talking about elite sports here. We don't care about the second-best percentile of men, why do we care about women? What I'd really like to see is some kind of team sport or game where there is a strong advantage in having a "mixed" team. Surely someone can think of a game that won't be entirely dominated by men? If that existed then we could choose the team sports with women in them over the 100% male individual sports. But ultimately the choice will come down to which one is the most interesting, impressive and exciting.
  • wreath 5y ago
    Sports is basically a competition and a display of strength and athleticism. Because most men are stronger and more athletic than most women, it is more entertaining to watch. Organizing sports so that we are including more women for the sake of being inclusive is silly and defeats the purpose of sports. This is about competition on who is better than everyone else, not about equality or equity.
  • unrealhoang 5y ago
    > What I'd really like to see is some kind of team sport or game where there is a strong advantage in having a "mixed" team. Surely someone can think of a game that won't be entirely dominated by men? If that existed then we could choose the team sports with women in them over the 100% male individual sports. But ultimately the choice will come down to which one is the most interesting, impressive and exciting. So far, there's no such game existed yet, even with non-physical sport like esport.
• gambiting 5y ago
  So you know how few years back companies were peddling this idea that forcing your real name in comments will make the discussion more civil and proper? Yeah, I can click on every single one of those people in this comment section, see their real name and their FB profile, and it still doesn't stop them from being vile on the internet.
  • Karsteski 5y ago
    What are some examples of vile comments, according to you?
    • gambiting 5y ago
      As a few examples: "Anyways, any woman dumb enough to participate in the farce that will be competing against HIM deserves to lose." "Women are getting screwed because of trans ideology. Mr. Hubbard is clearly a cheating male." "In the old days, abittoirs use to have a well trained cow that would calm the nervous cows on their way to be slaughtered. I often think of these women as those calming cows trying to placate the rest of us women." Like, there are some good comments and people trying to have a discussion in good faith. But clearly there are others who don't and I don't see how the real name policy has improved the quality of the internet discussion at all.
      • Karsteski 5y ago
        Ah okay fair enough, I would consider those people assholes as well. Although I am against any sort of forced identification on internet forums simply because I would prefer people speak their minds completely openly, regardless of what I think of what they are saying. I don't care for pretense, which is what actually happens IRL, in my experience.
        • gambiting 5y ago
          But that's exactly what I'm saying though(sorry if it hadn't come across that way) - the push for forced real name policies is stupid - the main stated goal of it was to improve the quality of discussion and accountability, yet it clearly does no such thing. HN is completely anonymous and yet has much higher standard for discussions compared to literally any other forum I know. And yes, I would also like people to speak openly about their thoughs - despite my earlier comment, I would defend their right to say those things openly, just as much I would defend my right to call those things vile or stupid.
• FriedrichN 5y ago
  One of the better arguments I've heard is that if you look at Hubbard's numbers when she was competing as a man and compare them when competing as a women you'll see a drop in performance, but not an enormous drop. She went from a mediocre lifter to one able to qualify for the Olympics. The reduced testosterone requirement is still way above what the average female athlete will have and it is a very limited view of what makes a biological female different from a biological male. I can't imagine what kind of problems this will give in combat sports, just imagine the longer reach and explosiveness men have. I'm all for people being able to identify as whatever they want, but not at the cost of fair sports. Here are some great discussions on the topic if you're interested: Weightlifting House - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcijSwv5YBM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VcijSwv5YBM Zack Telander - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjulLSX29H0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjulLSX29H0
• sterlind 5y ago
  As a trans woman, every time something like this hits the news, it makes me absolutely miserable. Conservatives and TERFs respond with vitriol and attack all of us as a group. I'm made to feel like some viking juggernaut, perverting the youth and forcing my way into women's spaces, when I really just want a quiet happy life as a cripple who can barely walk, much less dominate at weightlifting. The backlash against trans people is getting worse. It's why I'm stealth. I don't have to deal with the prejudice, with everyone seeing these headlines and talking points and fitting them into narratives and applying them to me. It's cowardly for me to hide, but I just can't deal. I hate being trans because of stuff like this.
  • FriedrichN 5y ago
    Please be aware that people who say this is unfair (in sports) aren't saying trans people aren't allowed to be who they are. I am against trans women competing in women's sports, especially those who transitioned late in their life. But that doesn't mean I'm against trans people. I don't mind the whole bathroom thing. Poop where you want, everybody poops. And conservatives will always find a reason to be against anything that goes against their norms. You might find that the backlash is getting worse, but actually it isn't. More people than ever are accepting of all things LGBT, conservatives have just become more vocal exactly because they are becoming a minority.
    • sterlind 5y ago
      yeah that's fair. I'm against trans women who haven't been on hormones for long enough competing in women's sports, and against trans men who are on hormones competing in women's sports. I think if a trans woman managed to completely skip first puberty then they'd probably be fine, since they were never exposed to cis male levels of T, but that's a pretty rare situation for now. for high school sports, I'd be a lot more lenient - something like just being on hormones for a year, since the stakes are lower than the Olympics and it's more of a social opportunity. but even if we disagree on the specifics of this issue, I'm glad to know there's people like you. thank you!
• apeescape 5y ago
  Would it be reasonable to compete in three categories: cismen, ciswomen, and others? The others category would have relaxed doping rules wrt hormones. Or is this too naive a solution?
  • lotsofpulp 5y ago
    More categories is the only solution.
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• sandworm101 5y ago
  The proof will be in the medals. The worst thing she could do for her cause is to actually win. If people see a sport where such transgender athletes are on the podium regularly and it is obvious they are doing better as a group, change will be demanded. Weightlifting looks to be that first test case but we were almost there before. Running faced a debate over allowing people with modified bodies to compete, but the so-called bladerunner disappeared from the scene and has yet to be replaced by another. The big question is the same as drugs: how much technology do we allow people to use? Are we committed to the idea of "natural" bodies in competition or do we allow technological modifications? (Pistorius was born with feet. They were deformed feet and were surgically removed when he was very young. He used surgery to improve on his "natural" body. The prosthetic blades were then a second stage down the rabbit hole of technological augmentation.)
  • gwd 5y ago
    I think the question with drugs is slightly different. Nobody cares how much vitamin C you take, because although making sure you're not vitamin C deficient has an advantage, at some point taking more doesn't help you at all; and if you take the maximum amount that your body will absorb, there are no health detriments. Same thing with creatine: taking creatine isn't "natural" in the sense that you'll end up with 2-3x as much in your system as you would "naturally"; but after a point, your body just stops using more; and if you take that amount, you won't have any health issues. With anabolic steroids however, if there is a "maximum amount that your body will absorb", it's far beyond what causes long-term health problems. This leads to a Prisoner's Dilemma type situation, where if most competitors are taking dose X, and one person takes dose X+1, that one person get an advantage; but if all competitors take does X+1, nobody has an advantage, but they all suffer health consequences. I don't inherently see a problem with any particular sport openly advertising that competitors may use up to dose X of any particular drug or steroid, where X has been reasonably shown to be a safe amount. The problem is, is it possible to test that only X has been taken, rather than X+1? If it's only possible to test that 0 (or a negligible amount) has been taken, then the only enforceable limit is 0; and an unenforced limit is effectively no limit at all.
    • 5y ago
• Igelau 5y ago
  It'll be interesting to see if the IAAF goes along with this and reinstates Dora Ratjen's 1939 high jump record.
• dominicjj 5y ago
  In case anyone was wondering exactly why a condition that affects a tiny fraction of the population has such a disproportionate effect on global policy, it's because many in power subscribe to a religion that worships dualism, a modern form of Gnosticism. A (very) conspiracy theory-minded overview is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUkiBz9rYEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUkiBz9rYEs
• RickJWagner 5y ago
  This is truly, deeply, anti-woman.
• anonchan 5y ago
  Is the decline in athletic performance from pre-transition to meeting the regulated testosterone levels greater or less than the gap in athletic performance between average cis men and women? Top-level cis men and women?
• Mildlypolite 5y ago
  Let's frame the problem like this:if we accept Hubbard as participant in the women field, we should accept also women to men transgenders in the male field(who wouldn't stand a chance of qualifying ever) therefore it is clear we need a transgender category if we don't want to disqualify an entire field of transgender athletes.
• mk81 5y ago
  Couldn't even get past the equivocating this poor woman felt she had to do before saying what we all know: this is bullshit.
  • C19is20 5y ago
    Clarity required: bullshit she should compete as a female, or bullshit she shouldn't?
    • mk81 5y ago
      The former. Can't help but note the power of twisting the language. It's bullshit that he should compete as a woman but of course now I'm the asshole.
• imsesaok 5y ago
  I already see a bunch of uninformed and transphobic arguments, including phrases such as "harmful to women" without including trans women, assuming sex is completely decoupled from gender, sex is binary (do you really think it's possible to have true binary in a physical world, let alone in a natural process?), and classical "I know their gender better than themself and nobody can object." I know what HN demographics are like and what they work with, and it's not LGBT. So please, get yourself educated.
• blindmute 5y ago
  The effects of testosterone in the womb and during puberty have extremely profound effects on the body that do not ever go away throughout your entire life. Bone density and neuromuscular efficiency are vastly different between the sexes and do not regress with the introduction of hormones later on. The level of testosterone on competition day has by comparison almost no effect on anything. National women's teams in many sports regularly compete with and LOSE to normal boys' high school teams. The lie that MtF people have no significant advantage in sports is just a lie agreed upon. You know it's a lie, so don't agree with it. It's a lie for purely political purposes.
  • strange_loops 5y ago
    > The effects of testosterone in the womb Can you point me to some studies around fetal testosterone?
• alisonkisk 5y ago
  I don't see it he argument for why "women's" sports should exist, once transgender competitors cause an imbalance. That is to say, of course people should be welcome to participate regardless of gender, but the championships and prizes should be based on objective measurements (like boxing weight classes, or heights, or whatever), and whatever the public is so enamored of as to generate funding for tournament prizes. IMO for athletics instead of focusing so much on competitions among a field of elite competitors with tiny differences, and overburdening and destroying their bodies, we should focus on challenges and achievements, and support many many people working to improve their personal records. And "sports ad entertainment" should be a more well rounded entertainment and aesthetic performance, not pointless contests of who gets a slightly lower or higher number on a metric.
• strange_loops 5y ago
  There is a great deal of panic in recent years about transwomen competing alongside ciswomen in athletic events, but how much data do we actually have on this? Are these instances of success just outliers and transwomen not even placing, ignored? How many areas of life and society are we willing to exclude a minority from before we are satisfied that the playing field is leveled? How many minorities are we willing to target? This is a complicated, messy issue and society at large isn't going to be perfect at it in these early days. Knee-jerk reactions, like those we're seeing from conservative politicians, are hurting people who don't have the power to fight back.
• IgorPartola 5y ago
  Given that this discussion has more than 500 comments at this point it's probably a little too late for this, but I suggest that as the HN community we check ourselves before we wreck ourselves. We are by and large a collection of cisgendered privileged white nerds who for the most part don't go to the gym, let alone compete in sports at the elite level. Talking about how women (cis or trans) feel about this issue is probably not our forte and given the clear transphobic undertones of about half the comments here, I think we are definitely not the domain experts here. Perhaps this is an instance where it would be wiser for this community to do more listening than talking.
• busymom0 5y ago
  Political correctness has caused women rights to go backwards over half a century. Nobody had the spine so far to stand up for obvious women rights and unfair treatment to the point where Olympics - one of the highest sports organizations has become a complete joke with allowing this to happen. This will only stop when women and girls simply boycott all these events. And this isn't just happening in Sports, even women beauty pageants are now being won by transgender. "What a great message for young girls... No matter what you do, men will always be better than you at it- including being a woman!" Absolutely absurd.