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I wonder how Snowden reconciles his position on self-censorship with his current country of residence. Is it meta, in the sense that he too has to self-censor o

I wonder how Snowden reconciles his position on self-censorship with his current country of residence. Is it meta, in the sense that he too has to self-censor out of fear for own life? Does he consider it a necessary move, presuming any country with stronger freedom of speech is also a country that would extradite him to the US?

GeekyBear 5y ago
> I wonder how Snowden reconciles his position on self-censorship with his current country of residence. By remembering that he got only got stuck in Russia because the United States revoked his passport while he was on an international flight that was to make a connection in Moscow?
- strogonoff 5y ago
  While it’s a good point, it doesn’t really explain anything here. I don’t have the details, but isn’t there a way to apply for an asylum, say, in neighbouring Georgia, Ukraine or Finland (by walking into an embassy or even straight to a land border)? Is he being held against his will? Does he not desire to move? Is it because he’s thinking those countries would be likely to deport him at the request of the US? Is it because he doesn’t believe living in a country which regime is closer to one’s own philosophy is worth the hassle of moving there? Or he doesn’t consider those countries any better than Russia in this regard? Etc.
  - ben_w 5y ago
    He applied to 27 countries including Finland. Apart from Russia, the ones he could actually reach turned him down. I have no doubt Russia is milking this for all it’s worth (wouldn’t you in their place?) but Snowden really didn’t have a totally free hand in where he ended up after his passport was cancelled — just America or Russia.
    - strogonoff 5y ago
      If he did apply for asylum and was refused, that explains the situation to me personally. I never thought all of the (admittedly, quite few) directly adjacent to Russia democratic countries would do that to him. I hope he continues to write on these topics from wherever he is.
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        > directly adjacent to Russia democratic countries I wonder how necessary the "directly adjacent" criteria is. Couldn't he sail from Russia to Iceland, for example? Perhaps if he was wanted by Interpol he would find it hard to travel through the territorial waters of European nations (assuming their coast guards would intercept a vessel carrying him). In practice, though, I assume that Putin's government has made it very clear to him that his safety relies on him remaining a useful propaganda piece for the regime, so he wouldn't even get as far as Russian waters.
        randompwd 5y ago
        American operatives cant move freely in Russia as they can in any other European/Western country.
        shadowgovt 5y ago
        The moment that ship sails into international waters, he's at risk of being spirited off it by a detachment of the FBI [https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/fawaz-younis https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/fawaz-younis]. ... and if he books passage on a ship that doesn't reach international waters, there's nothing to stop US operatives from bribing the captain to take a detour.
        GeekyBear 5y ago
        > Couldn't he sail from Russia to Iceland, for example? The United States has a recent history of kidnapping people in other countries and sending them off to CIA black sites where some have ended up tortured to death. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site
UncleOxidant 5y ago
It's not like he had a huge amount of choice in where he ended up. Putin allows it because he can point to Snowden and say "see, he uncovered programs in the American system that are doing things they accuse me of". And likely also because Putin sees Snowden as a potentially valuable bargaining chip.
emsy 5y ago
How do people reconcile that Snowden, who should be lauded as a hero finds refuge at a country where Vladimir Putin is president is frankly a much more interesting question.Btw: He doesn’t need to be a martyr to be a hero.
- throwkeep 5y ago
  Because he didn't have much of a choice? I have a feeling he'd much prefer being back in the US or somewhere in Europe or any other number of places, but all of those lead to a jail cell.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    You misread that question.
mdoms 5y ago
Dude it's not like Snowden is stoked to be living the dream in Russia. He's an exile.
- strogonoff 5y ago
  Not blaming him and not sure whether he had a choice. Just noting a certain dissonance in reality, which I’d assume he also experiences, and wondering how he frames it in his mind (e.g., does he think “yes, my writing is affected by the very thing I describe, but I currently have no other choice”, or “I’m not self-censoring since somehow I have a deal that I can write anything I want, as long as I’m not trying to disseminate it in Russia”, or “self-censorship is a thing happening everywhere now, so Russia or not there’s not much difference where to reside”, or something else entirely). It’s not quite an elephant in the room, but IMO if he went a bit meta on this it could make for an interesting read (maybe he does elsewhere—I’m not using Substack and not following his writing very closely).
h2odragon 5y ago
"with his country of residence" wtf? ... he prefers Russia to "suicide" in an American jail, and this is supposed to negatively impact his credibility? Or should he martyr himself to integrity and start calling Putin and the leaders of Russia out for their bad behaviors? I honor the man as a hero; but if I was him I'd STFU and try to live a quiet life in the woods somewhere, never attracting public attention again. Lest the end be messy and spectacular like Assange is being treated to.
salynchnew 5y ago
> I wonder how Snowden reconciles his position on self-censorship with his current country of residence. Is it meta, in the sense that he too has to self-censor out of fear for own life? Does he consider it a necessary move, presuming any country with stronger freedom of speech is also a country that would extradite him to the US? TFW your thought piece is a subtweet of itself.

GeekyBear 5y ago

> I wonder how Snowden reconciles his position on self-censorship with his current country of residence. By remembering that he got only got stuck in Russia because the United States revoked his passport while he was on an international flight that was to make a connection in Moscow?

strogonoff 5y ago
While it’s a good point, it doesn’t really explain anything here. I don’t have the details, but isn’t there a way to apply for an asylum, say, in neighbouring Georgia, Ukraine or Finland (by walking into an embassy or even straight to a land border)? Is he being held against his will? Does he not desire to move? Is it because he’s thinking those countries would be likely to deport him at the request of the US? Is it because he doesn’t believe living in a country which regime is closer to one’s own philosophy is worth the hassle of moving there? Or he doesn’t consider those countries any better than Russia in this regard? Etc.
- ben_w 5y ago
  He applied to 27 countries including Finland. Apart from Russia, the ones he could actually reach turned him down. I have no doubt Russia is milking this for all it’s worth (wouldn’t you in their place?) but Snowden really didn’t have a totally free hand in where he ended up after his passport was cancelled — just America or Russia.
  - strogonoff 5y ago
    If he did apply for asylum and was refused, that explains the situation to me personally. I never thought all of the (admittedly, quite few) directly adjacent to Russia democratic countries would do that to him. I hope he continues to write on these topics from wherever he is.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      > directly adjacent to Russia democratic countries I wonder how necessary the "directly adjacent" criteria is. Couldn't he sail from Russia to Iceland, for example? Perhaps if he was wanted by Interpol he would find it hard to travel through the territorial waters of European nations (assuming their coast guards would intercept a vessel carrying him). In practice, though, I assume that Putin's government has made it very clear to him that his safety relies on him remaining a useful propaganda piece for the regime, so he wouldn't even get as far as Russian waters.
      - randompwd 5y ago
        American operatives cant move freely in Russia as they can in any other European/Western country.
      - shadowgovt 5y ago
        The moment that ship sails into international waters, he's at risk of being spirited off it by a detachment of the FBI [https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/fawaz-younis https://www.fbi.gov/history/famous-cases/fawaz-younis]. ... and if he books passage on a ship that doesn't reach international waters, there's nothing to stop US operatives from bribing the captain to take a detour.
      - GeekyBear 5y ago
        > Couldn't he sail from Russia to Iceland, for example? The United States has a recent history of kidnapping people in other countries and sending them off to CIA black sites where some have ended up tortured to death. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraordinary_rendition https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_site

UncleOxidant 5y ago

It's not like he had a huge amount of choice in where he ended up. Putin allows it because he can point to Snowden and say "see, he uncovered programs in the American system that are doing things they accuse me of". And likely also because Putin sees Snowden as a potentially valuable bargaining chip.

emsy 5y ago

How do people reconcile that Snowden, who should be lauded as a hero finds refuge at a country where Vladimir Putin is president is frankly a much more interesting question.Btw: He doesn’t need to be a martyr to be a hero.

throwkeep 5y ago
Because he didn't have much of a choice? I have a feeling he'd much prefer being back in the US or somewhere in Europe or any other number of places, but all of those lead to a jail cell.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  You misread that question.

mdoms 5y ago

Dude it's not like Snowden is stoked to be living the dream in Russia. He's an exile.

strogonoff 5y ago
Not blaming him and not sure whether he had a choice. Just noting a certain dissonance in reality, which I’d assume he also experiences, and wondering how he frames it in his mind (e.g., does he think “yes, my writing is affected by the very thing I describe, but I currently have no other choice”, or “I’m not self-censoring since somehow I have a deal that I can write anything I want, as long as I’m not trying to disseminate it in Russia”, or “self-censorship is a thing happening everywhere now, so Russia or not there’s not much difference where to reside”, or something else entirely). It’s not quite an elephant in the room, but IMO if he went a bit meta on this it could make for an interesting read (maybe he does elsewhere—I’m not using Substack and not following his writing very closely).

h2odragon 5y ago

"with his country of residence" wtf? ... he prefers Russia to "suicide" in an American jail, and this is supposed to negatively impact his credibility? Or should he martyr himself to integrity and start calling Putin and the leaders of Russia out for their bad behaviors? I honor the man as a hero; but if I was him I'd STFU and try to live a quiet life in the woods somewhere, never attracting public attention again. Lest the end be messy and spectacular like Assange is being treated to.

salynchnew 5y ago

> I wonder how Snowden reconciles his position on self-censorship with his current country of residence. Is it meta, in the sense that he too has to self-censor out of fear for own life? Does he consider it a necessary move, presuming any country with stronger freedom of speech is also a country that would extradite him to the US? TFW your thought piece is a subtweet of itself.