5 ms·

It’s an unfortunate reality but why shouldn’t people who are protected be able to take advantage of that? It’s older generations in broad strokes, but also peop

by cr1895 5y ago

It’s an unfortunate reality but why shouldn’t people who are protected be able to take advantage of that? It’s older generations in broad strokes, but also people who were at higher risk, healthcare workers, people who’ve been vaccinated already abroad, etc. It’s not so simple as old vs young and even if it were I don’t see the solution as keeping everyone at a disadvantage because you are bitter that others got vaccinated sooner. Furthermore, it is possible to take advantage of everything a person with a vaccine pass can do with a (free!) PCR test. It’s even paid for by the government for July and August for travel abroad. Also, it’s definitely far from certain that some mutation will evaporate all of the progress made. It’s not helpful to speculate like that.

novaRom 5y ago
Germany here. Life of many children has become a nightmare. Good luck with any travel with PCR tests, 120 Euro each, and you need at least 2 per child. There's no vaccine for children under 12, and it's officially not recommended for those who is healthy under 16. Many families are now struggling. Even getting a non-PCR quick test which is free requires lots of additional time (this is required for any indoor activity).
- cr1895 5y ago
  The context of the above was Netherlands, where there is no widespread quick testing-on-entry as there is in Germany. There is largely no restriction in day-to-day life in the Netherlands (and even less in the coming weeks), with or without a vaccine QR code; the code would apply for access to large events or travel. Also in Netherlands the government is paying for travel PCR tests through July and August. These countries have taken quite different approaches. You do raise an excellent point that this vaccine system excludes children.
- morsch 5y ago
  You can currently travel (and return) freely to loads of places without a vaccination, a test, or a document, or anything. Seems a bit disingenuous not to mention that. Also, PCR tests are available for way less than 120 EUR. That's not to say the past year wasn't particularly difficult to families with children and young people in general.
  - novaRom 5y ago
    Can you name those destinations where you can travel to/from without tests? If you have to fly, you have to do PCR test and again on return. PCR tests in most cities are 80-130 Euro. Only if you live in Bavaria, you may do it for free.
    - cr1895 5y ago
      For Netherlands, this is the list of safe countries that do not require you to test/quarantine on return: https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiting-the-netherlands-from-abroad/eu-list-of-safe-countries https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiti... Granted, it is more complex to check what countries require to accept a person traveling from the Netherlands.
    - morsch 5y ago
      Sorry, I was wrong -- I thought you can freely travel to e.g. Austria, but you do in fact need to provide a PCR test or be vaccinated on arrival (just not on return). So the list may just be three countries, the Netherlands, Spain and Croatia. Mea culpa. At least Germany itself has lots of nice and diverse holiday destinations. That's what we're doing this year.
    - 9dev 5y ago
      Italy, for one! If you ride by car, you don't need anything; going by train, you'll need an antigen test, which you could do in Munich, for free, before boarding the next train heading to the Brenner pass. On your way back, you don't need a test either way. (Source: came back yesterday)
rovek 5y ago
Seems like a question of reciprocity and solidarity. I'm not sure if I agree with the sentiment of OP but I do understand frustration that those of us who had an inconsequentially small probability of falling ill to this virus have lost more than a year of the prime of our lives in an effort to protect others; others who will now enjoy all the freedoms we still don't have back despite there still being next to no risk to us.
- Pyramus 5y ago
  > Seems like a question of reciprocity and solidarity. I have to disagree here. There is neither reciprocity nor solidarity involved, because you gain/lose nothing by them having or not having additional freedoms. Don't get me wrong I understand OP's frustration and that he/she feels treated unfairly. But OP's frustration is not rational. As harsh as it sounds OP's feelings are driven by envy.
  - rovek 5y ago
    I don't see that anything in your comment precludes reciprocation of unnecessarily conservative limitations on one's life. It could be argued that keeping everyone home instead of just those at risk was irrational.
    - Pyramus 5y ago
      That's a completely different discussion whether the strategy was the right strategy in the first place, and unrelated to my argument. What I'm saying is that given the current situation, player A (OP) loses nothing while player B (the vaccinated) gains something (also called a Pareto improvement). It is not rational for player A to oppose this new situation where B gains something.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Problem with rationality is how it is defined. And yes, of course it is rational to be angry about it. It is also rational for humans to sometimes project this anger at wrong targets. It is still rational behavior because it fulfills a need, although it is classically defined differently of course.

by cr1895 5y ago

novaRom 5y ago

Germany here. Life of many children has become a nightmare. Good luck with any travel with PCR tests, 120 Euro each, and you need at least 2 per child. There's no vaccine for children under 12, and it's officially not recommended for those who is healthy under 16. Many families are now struggling. Even getting a non-PCR quick test which is free requires lots of additional time (this is required for any indoor activity).

cr1895 5y ago
The context of the above was Netherlands, where there is no widespread quick testing-on-entry as there is in Germany. There is largely no restriction in day-to-day life in the Netherlands (and even less in the coming weeks), with or without a vaccine QR code; the code would apply for access to large events or travel. Also in Netherlands the government is paying for travel PCR tests through July and August. These countries have taken quite different approaches. You do raise an excellent point that this vaccine system excludes children.
morsch 5y ago
You can currently travel (and return) freely to loads of places without a vaccination, a test, or a document, or anything. Seems a bit disingenuous not to mention that. Also, PCR tests are available for way less than 120 EUR. That's not to say the past year wasn't particularly difficult to families with children and young people in general.
- novaRom 5y ago
  Can you name those destinations where you can travel to/from without tests? If you have to fly, you have to do PCR test and again on return. PCR tests in most cities are 80-130 Euro. Only if you live in Bavaria, you may do it for free.
  - cr1895 5y ago
    For Netherlands, this is the list of safe countries that do not require you to test/quarantine on return: https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiting-the-netherlands-from-abroad/eu-list-of-safe-countries https://www.government.nl/topics/coronavirus-covid-19/visiti... Granted, it is more complex to check what countries require to accept a person traveling from the Netherlands.
  - morsch 5y ago
    Sorry, I was wrong -- I thought you can freely travel to e.g. Austria, but you do in fact need to provide a PCR test or be vaccinated on arrival (just not on return). So the list may just be three countries, the Netherlands, Spain and Croatia. Mea culpa. At least Germany itself has lots of nice and diverse holiday destinations. That's what we're doing this year.
  - 9dev 5y ago
    Italy, for one! If you ride by car, you don't need anything; going by train, you'll need an antigen test, which you could do in Munich, for free, before boarding the next train heading to the Brenner pass. On your way back, you don't need a test either way. (Source: came back yesterday)

rovek 5y ago

Seems like a question of reciprocity and solidarity. I'm not sure if I agree with the sentiment of OP but I do understand frustration that those of us who had an inconsequentially small probability of falling ill to this virus have lost more than a year of the prime of our lives in an effort to protect others; others who will now enjoy all the freedoms we still don't have back despite there still being next to no risk to us.

Pyramus 5y ago
> Seems like a question of reciprocity and solidarity. I have to disagree here. There is neither reciprocity nor solidarity involved, because you gain/lose nothing by them having or not having additional freedoms. Don't get me wrong I understand OP's frustration and that he/she feels treated unfairly. But OP's frustration is not rational. As harsh as it sounds OP's feelings are driven by envy.
- rovek 5y ago
  I don't see that anything in your comment precludes reciprocation of unnecessarily conservative limitations on one's life. It could be argued that keeping everyone home instead of just those at risk was irrational.
  - Pyramus 5y ago
    That's a completely different discussion whether the strategy was the right strategy in the first place, and unrelated to my argument. What I'm saying is that given the current situation, player A (OP) loses nothing while player B (the vaccinated) gains something (also called a Pareto improvement). It is not rational for player A to oppose this new situation where B gains something.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Problem with rationality is how it is defined. And yes, of course it is rational to be angry about it. It is also rational for humans to sometimes project this anger at wrong targets. It is still rational behavior because it fulfills a need, although it is classically defined differently of course.