5 ms·

> Or you know, just don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine? You don't understand. When I interact with people, I don't see race

by throwaway111999 5y ago

> Or you know, just don't be a creep and treat women like human beings and you'll be fine? You don't understand. When I interact with people, I don't see race/color/age/sex. I'm just focused on the problem at hand. I also have a deep compassion for people in general. What I'm worried about is saying or doing the wrong thing due to a lapse in judgement in the moment. I'll give you an example. I love fashion. At a previous company it was all guys. When a guy came to work and was wearing new shoes, I'd notice, and compliment the shoes. Or if they were wearing a new shirt I might say that it "brings out your X". I'm straight so there's nothing sexual here. I just think fashion is cool. It's a hobby of mine. Making any comments about female coworker fashion terrifies me. What if I say something that's perceived as a sexual advance? Don't forget that men often disguise sexual advances as seemingly innocent compliments. It's a big gray area. > If you're giving negative feedback because they did something wrong/substandard work, you document it and move on. If there are questions later, you refer back. I've literally never had this be a problem. Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but my point is that I have an irrational fear. I'd much rather sacrifice a little bit of professional perception of skill to not mess around in an area I'm very paranoid about. > I'm not sure why talking about your personal life would be grounds for issues unless you decided to talk about your bedroom, politics, or religion. "I went hiking on X trail this weekend, it was pretty cool" isn't going to get you called into HR. Irrationally, I worry that I'll get to comfortable and mention something that, to me, is obviously not "-ist" but comes off that way.

tw04 5y ago
>When I interact with people, I don't see race/color/age/sex. No offense but this is such a silly thing to say. EVERYONE sees race/age/sex. Most people also change how they interact with others based on their age/sex and that's perfectly fine (if you're basing it on race that's an issue unless you're literally in a foreign country with a different culture). I don't talk to a 2 year old girl in the same tone of voice and vocabulary that I talk to a 40 year old man. If you're treating a 2 year old and a 40 year old the same, we've probably discovered one of many problems with your interpersonal skills. >Making any comments about female coworker fashion terrifies me. Why? Again this is all pretty straightforward. Couple simple rules: don't stop by the same persons desk every day and compliment their fashion, that gets creepy. "I like those earrings, they look great" - no problem. "Hey I really like the way that shirt fits your body" - problem >Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but my point is that I have an irrational fear. And my point is that you're saying you are knowingly and intentionally treating your female coworkers significantly different than your male coworkers, and that's kind of weird, and will likely lead to more issues than if you just treat them the same...
- throwaway111999 5y ago
  > No offense but this is such a silly thing to say. EVERYONE sees race/age/sex. I strongly disagree here. When I'm reviewing code, I look at the code. It could be written by ANYONE. I don't ever think "this woman" or "this <religion>" when reviewing code! > "I like those earrings, they look great" - no problem. > "Hey I really like the way that shirt fits your body" - problem You don't see how it can be easy to accidentally state the latter? If you don't... I just don't know what else to say. A major part of fashion is accentuating or hiding parts of someone's body... In any case, as I said, I acknowledge that it's an irrational fear and I'd just rather not take the risk. I think your main POV here is that if your heart is in the right place then everything will be fine. I just hard disagree with that. > And my point is that you're saying you are knowingly and intentionally treating your female coworkers significantly different than your male coworkers, and that's kind of weird, and will likely lead to more issues than if you just treat them the same... No, I treat them both equally but I avoid expressing any opinion whatsoever becomes I'm worried about being perceived otherwise. I don't give female coworkers critical reviews, but I don't give male coworkers bad reviews either. What I'm saying is that I very strategically avoid ANY situation where my I can express an opinion that MAY be perceived as "-ist". In other words, think of any situation where intent is a major factor. Example: A very veeerrrry nit picky code review. Some people are nit picky about every single thing to every single person. That's fine. But if someone is nit picky ONLY to female coworkers then that's a problem. Intent is what matters there. My (again, irrational) fear is that my intent my get mis-read due to bad luck. My code reviews can be inconsistent sometimes. Some days I might point something out that I wouldn't on other days. Just human error. See what I mean?
  - tw04 5y ago
    >I strongly disagree here. When I'm reviewing code, I look at the code. It could be written by ANYONE. I don't ever think "this woman" or "this <religion>" when reviewing code! But that's not what you said. And it's not really the point either way, because we're talking about providing feedback on the code, which was written by a person with an age and a race and a gender. And when you sit down with that person to provide feedback, you see their race, age, and gender. Saying you don't is just silly. >You don't see how it can be easy to accidentally state the latter? I really don't. >I think your main POV here is that if your heart is in the right place then everything will be fine. I just hard disagree with that. I don't think and didn't state that at all and would never give anyone such absurd advice. I could go on with more examples for you: I really like those shoes. - perfectly fine Those shoes make your legs look great. - don't do this That skirt is cute. - Yes That skirt makes your butt look amazing - don't do this I honestly can't tell if you created the throwaway for entertainment or having a real conversation but at this point I'm leaning towards the former because I genuinely don't believe you're confused about how to make an appropriate vs. inappropriate comment to a coworker. It doesn't really matter if they're male or female, if you tell someone that an outfit makes their body look X - you're probably going to get in trouble unless you happen to be good friends outside of work. >No, I treat them both equally but I avoid expressing any opinion whatsoever becomes I'm worried about being perceived otherwise. It doesn't really matter how you're perceived. If you document your reviews, and you do it fairly, the work will speak for itself. It has nothing to do with male vs. female. I've done this for decades, someone will inevitably accuse you of a bias, and you refer back to your documentation, notes, and the original work. They can mis-read all they want, the only thing HR cares about is a defensible position for your feedback.

tw04 5y ago

>When I interact with people, I don't see race/color/age/sex. No offense but this is such a silly thing to say. EVERYONE sees race/age/sex. Most people also change how they interact with others based on their age/sex and that's perfectly fine (if you're basing it on race that's an issue unless you're literally in a foreign country with a different culture). I don't talk to a 2 year old girl in the same tone of voice and vocabulary that I talk to a 40 year old man. If you're treating a 2 year old and a 40 year old the same, we've probably discovered one of many problems with your interpersonal skills. >Making any comments about female coworker fashion terrifies me. Why? Again this is all pretty straightforward. Couple simple rules: don't stop by the same persons desk every day and compliment their fashion, that gets creepy. "I like those earrings, they look great" - no problem. "Hey I really like the way that shirt fits your body" - problem >Maybe I wasn't clear in my post, but my point is that I have an irrational fear. And my point is that you're saying you are knowingly and intentionally treating your female coworkers significantly different than your male coworkers, and that's kind of weird, and will likely lead to more issues than if you just treat them the same...

throwaway111999 5y ago
> No offense but this is such a silly thing to say. EVERYONE sees race/age/sex. I strongly disagree here. When I'm reviewing code, I look at the code. It could be written by ANYONE. I don't ever think "this woman" or "this <religion>" when reviewing code! > "I like those earrings, they look great" - no problem. > "Hey I really like the way that shirt fits your body" - problem You don't see how it can be easy to accidentally state the latter? If you don't... I just don't know what else to say. A major part of fashion is accentuating or hiding parts of someone's body... In any case, as I said, I acknowledge that it's an irrational fear and I'd just rather not take the risk. I think your main POV here is that if your heart is in the right place then everything will be fine. I just hard disagree with that. > And my point is that you're saying you are knowingly and intentionally treating your female coworkers significantly different than your male coworkers, and that's kind of weird, and will likely lead to more issues than if you just treat them the same... No, I treat them both equally but I avoid expressing any opinion whatsoever becomes I'm worried about being perceived otherwise. I don't give female coworkers critical reviews, but I don't give male coworkers bad reviews either. What I'm saying is that I very strategically avoid ANY situation where my I can express an opinion that MAY be perceived as "-ist". In other words, think of any situation where intent is a major factor. Example: A very veeerrrry nit picky code review. Some people are nit picky about every single thing to every single person. That's fine. But if someone is nit picky ONLY to female coworkers then that's a problem. Intent is what matters there. My (again, irrational) fear is that my intent my get mis-read due to bad luck. My code reviews can be inconsistent sometimes. Some days I might point something out that I wouldn't on other days. Just human error. See what I mean?
- tw04 5y ago
  >I strongly disagree here. When I'm reviewing code, I look at the code. It could be written by ANYONE. I don't ever think "this woman" or "this <religion>" when reviewing code! But that's not what you said. And it's not really the point either way, because we're talking about providing feedback on the code, which was written by a person with an age and a race and a gender. And when you sit down with that person to provide feedback, you see their race, age, and gender. Saying you don't is just silly. >You don't see how it can be easy to accidentally state the latter? I really don't. >I think your main POV here is that if your heart is in the right place then everything will be fine. I just hard disagree with that. I don't think and didn't state that at all and would never give anyone such absurd advice. I could go on with more examples for you: I really like those shoes. - perfectly fine Those shoes make your legs look great. - don't do this That skirt is cute. - Yes That skirt makes your butt look amazing - don't do this I honestly can't tell if you created the throwaway for entertainment or having a real conversation but at this point I'm leaning towards the former because I genuinely don't believe you're confused about how to make an appropriate vs. inappropriate comment to a coworker. It doesn't really matter if they're male or female, if you tell someone that an outfit makes their body look X - you're probably going to get in trouble unless you happen to be good friends outside of work. >No, I treat them both equally but I avoid expressing any opinion whatsoever becomes I'm worried about being perceived otherwise. It doesn't really matter how you're perceived. If you document your reviews, and you do it fairly, the work will speak for itself. It has nothing to do with male vs. female. I've done this for decades, someone will inevitably accuse you of a bias, and you refer back to your documentation, notes, and the original work. They can mis-read all they want, the only thing HR cares about is a defensible position for your feedback.