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Regarding UBI I have asked this in multiple forums (not HN) so I'll ask again and see if you (or anyone else) has a response to this. After the oil bonanza in t

Regarding UBI I have asked this in multiple forums (not HN) so I'll ask again and see if you (or anyone else) has a response to this. After the oil bonanza in the middle East, a number of countries pretty much had a UBI like system for all their citizens and most still do. In effect, what I saw when I've been there was not that people have engaged in creative endeavours, or things that UBI proponents often claim will happen once everyone has UBI. They imported lots of workers from poorer countries to do all the shitty work, and treat the workers horrifically. The amount of time spent toward religious activities is absurd. E.g., shops and markets entirely close down multiple times a day for prayers. This has other knock on effects as well. How do we know this is not what the US would head toward if UBI is implemented?

Gravityloss 5y ago
Interesting points. On the other hand, Norway found oil very late and was a very organized society by then. You can find the good drama miniseries "Lykkeland" showing the early part from a small town perspective. Fishermen became oilmen. Religious fundamentalism went down, wellbeing went up.
ceilingcorner 5y ago
The amount of time spent toward religious activities is absurd. E.g., shops and markets entirely close down multiple times a day for prayers. Ah yes, the God of Commerce doesn’t like it when you give other gods more attention.
- bongoman37 5y ago
  It isn't about God of commerce, it is about forcing everyone to follow someone else's diktats. Its like how no one can buy alcohol on Sundays in many parts of the US except to a far larger extent.
  - wizzwizz4 5y ago
    Why do you believe the shop workers want to stay open? If they're religious, they probably want to be praying. If it's a theocratic state, that might be an issue, but if it's just a religious populace I see no reason to believe you're right.
    - bongoman37 5y ago
      Because many of them said so to me. A lot of people aren't that religious, the vice police literally beats people if they don't conform.
imtringued 5y ago
The problem is the following: An export surplus is unsustainable over the long term. Achieving balanced trade is a good thing. However, if the entirety of your wealth is built on oil exports, it also means it is very cheap to import everything that isn't oil as people must sell you their (non oil) things in exchange for your oil. You must diversify your economy to become less dependent on oil. However, it is easy for the government to take control over oil. The president can become a multi billionaire while ignoring the rest of your country.
tomjohnneill 5y ago
A UBI that doesn't apply to foreign migrants isn't exactly universal. Also, the second order impact of oil money appreciating the currency and therefore the reducing the international competitiveness of non-oil industries definitely has a big impact. In contrast, in a UBI situation, GDP still depends on the productivity of the country, not just the wealth generated from a niche (in terms of employment) extractive sector.
- eptcyka 5y ago
  What's the plan for dealing with the increased immigration then? UBI significantly increases the cost per citizen for a country, which would make migration much worse.

Gravityloss 5y ago

Interesting points. On the other hand, Norway found oil very late and was a very organized society by then. You can find the good drama miniseries "Lykkeland" showing the early part from a small town perspective. Fishermen became oilmen. Religious fundamentalism went down, wellbeing went up.

ceilingcorner 5y ago

The amount of time spent toward religious activities is absurd. E.g., shops and markets entirely close down multiple times a day for prayers. Ah yes, the God of Commerce doesn’t like it when you give other gods more attention.

bongoman37 5y ago
It isn't about God of commerce, it is about forcing everyone to follow someone else's diktats. Its like how no one can buy alcohol on Sundays in many parts of the US except to a far larger extent.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  Why do you believe the shop workers want to stay open? If they're religious, they probably want to be praying. If it's a theocratic state, that might be an issue, but if it's just a religious populace I see no reason to believe you're right.
  - bongoman37 5y ago
    Because many of them said so to me. A lot of people aren't that religious, the vice police literally beats people if they don't conform.

imtringued 5y ago

The problem is the following: An export surplus is unsustainable over the long term. Achieving balanced trade is a good thing. However, if the entirety of your wealth is built on oil exports, it also means it is very cheap to import everything that isn't oil as people must sell you their (non oil) things in exchange for your oil. You must diversify your economy to become less dependent on oil. However, it is easy for the government to take control over oil. The president can become a multi billionaire while ignoring the rest of your country.

tomjohnneill 5y ago

A UBI that doesn't apply to foreign migrants isn't exactly universal. Also, the second order impact of oil money appreciating the currency and therefore the reducing the international competitiveness of non-oil industries definitely has a big impact. In contrast, in a UBI situation, GDP still depends on the productivity of the country, not just the wealth generated from a niche (in terms of employment) extractive sector.

eptcyka 5y ago
What's the plan for dealing with the increased immigration then? UBI significantly increases the cost per citizen for a country, which would make migration much worse.