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I mostly agree. Though I disagree basic income, or even raising the minimum wage will have the intended effect. Intended effect: Increase the buying power

I __mostly__ agree. Though I disagree basic income, or even raising the minimum wage will have the intended effect. Intended effect: Increase the buying power of those who proportionately receive the greatest additional income. Likely real effect: The level of the tide rises, but the boat's don't change spots. The cost of rent and everything in the market goes up with the tide. The middle class, and even moderately well off professionals, get a quality of life and pay CUT (in effect, since they don't get the raise). The Rich who are rent-seeking, still get their rent and still win. I agree with the Star Trek lifestyle goals, but they get there by providing for all equally. It's the major capitol things (leaving federation space, energy intensive development projects, etc) which still require funds other than basic allocation.

deleted 5y ago
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Qwertious 5y ago
>The cost of rent and everything in the market goes up with the tide. The middle class, and even moderately well off professionals, get a quality of life and pay CUT (in effect, since they don't get the raise). I disagree - a UBI means that anyone who's able to live frugally may, at any time, retire. This gives enormous bargaining power to workers, as if the pay is too low then they can say "fuck it, I'm moving to <insert rural ghost town>, buying an abandoned house for $1, and living off my UBI". Not only does this put downward pressure on rent, it also encourages jobs to be more available in rural areas, as people will move to there for lower costs of living instead of moving away because it's unaffordable due to lack of jobs/UBI. Your wage is not determined by your productivity, it's determined by your bargaining power (your Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement (BATNA) being the main one, but how unique your skills are determines your employer's BATNA). In other words, employers will employ you for any amount that still lets them make a profit off of your labour, but they will pay you the least they can get away with paying without you walking away. Some people literally can't afford to walk away, and they're the people who are paid dogshit wages. A UBI would let them walk away until their job calls them with a good offer.
- mjevans 5y ago
  Bargaining power fixes: Provide 'employment transition' by banking vacation carry over and get paid out when someone quits (optionally paid at the otherwise normal rate over time until depleted). Medicare for all with dental, vision and hearing - Single payer healthcare so that it isn't tied to a job, and helps return those out of work to work if our medical tech is sufficient. Make current US job benefits (vacation, sick pay, medical co-coverage) paid by taxes on corporations proportional to the pay for workers. Hourly workers should pro-rated with E.G. 20 hours of work for 'full benefits'. Also require hourly jobs to be scheduled in advance in some fair way that doesn't de-facto allow an abusive employer to have someone on call without paying them to be on call. The socialization of the vacation benefits also benefits corporations, since they would no longer hold those assets on their balance sheet as liabilities.
  - Broken_Hippo 5y ago
    You could simply just stop treating vacation time as a perk or something you earn and, instead, simply give everyone paid vacation time. It doesn't have to be expensive: Norway collects taxes in a way that means you basically fund your own vacation: The downside is that you don't get that money if you didn't work last year, but there is a push to fix that. And I completely agree about scheduling: Employers should pay extra for changing a schedule in too short of a frame. Yes, this also means that everyone might get paid extra for releasing the schedule too late. I'd also add that everyone should have the right to work contracts. At a minimum, it'd state how to break the contract (fair notice, both sides, exceptions apply), rate of pay, number of hours expected (even for salary workers), and a start date.
- Aerroon 5y ago
  Somebody has to actually create all the stuff that people consume. UBI doesn't address that point. If these employers have to pay more to hire people, then prices will go up. When you have 200 million apples and 300 million people then UBI won't get the 100 million people an apple. Growing more apples does. And this same process would apply to virtually every good and service people consume. You might be right on rent, but that would probably exacerbate the price of goods problem further since there would be fewer people willing to do those jobs. UBI will only make people better off if more goods and services are produced as a result of it. Or alternatively, if goods and services are somehow moved from excessive consumption by the rich to the poor. But that last part is probably a drop in the bucket. Rich people still eat the same amount of food for dinner.
deleted 5y ago
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tasogare 5y ago
> The cost of rent and everything in the market goes up with the tide. Exactly. This is what happened in France with the allocations logement (APL). Since the state was now funding a part (let's say 150€ over 400€ rent), what the landlords did was rising the rents by about the same amount. Results were net negatives: 1. Purchasing power of student didn't change 2. Rent augmented for everyone in the segment of housing that could be rent to students 3. Rich people get richer
- dagw 5y ago
  This complaint is actually part of the core economic thesis put forwards in the lyrics of the most popular punk song in Sweden[1], written in the mid 70s. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vvrUrBuQQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vvrUrBuQQ
- Qwertious 5y ago
  Rent gouging only works if people are limited in where they rent. If you don't need a job, then you don't need to live near your job and can instead live wherever the rent is cheapest. Which is usually a small shrinking country town where people are leaving because there are no jobs.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    Housing is often a sellers market. If you can find a place where it isn't you get to save money.
diob 5y ago
But in places where they've ignored the nay sayers and decided to raise minimum wage, the "likely real effect" you mention didn't happen. In fact, small businesses did great because poor people (who actually spend money) could afford to go to them. I'm surprised this argument against raising it still lingers after real life studies have been done.
gehsty 5y ago
So rent control / social housing (like council houses in the UK) combined with ubi?
faitswulff 5y ago
The boats don't have to change spots in order to stay afloat.
solatic 5y ago
> The level of the tide rises Precisely. People are trying to treat the symptoms of inflation by throwing money (UBI) at the problem. The problem isn't that people don't have enough money; the problem is that the cost of living has become less and less affordable. The solution is to reduce the cost of living by offering people basic affordable alternatives - not giving people more money to afford housing, but helping the price of housing reduce over time (a process that, if it were entirely handled by the private sector, we would call commoditization and hail as a success). Not by giving people more money to spend on K-12 education, but by making K-12 education free (wait... we already did that one). If we give people more money (Pell grants for university degrees), the price just spirals out of control. Treat the problem, not the symptoms.
MiguelX413 5y ago
They don't rise though, at least not the same amount, as proven by places with much higher wages where things are not more expensive as a result.
konschubert 5y ago
Inflation won’t cancel out UBI because there are many people on this earth who spend more than UBI today. In other words, the money spent every month in the US economy is much more than the money UBI would add. It’s true that there would be inflation but it would not cancel the full effect.
commandlinefan 5y ago
> The middle class, and even moderately well off professionals, get a quality of life and pay CUT I can't help but wonder if that isn't the actual goal.
micropresident 5y ago
Except that basic income is a flat amount, and taxes are progressive and %. Thus, there's an equilibrium point. It doesn't cause some runaway inflation. It would also allow removing the minimum wage which would increase available low-skilled jobs.

I __mostly__ agree. Though I disagree basic income, or even raising the minimum wage will have the intended effect. Intended effect: Increase the buying power

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Qwertious 5y ago

>The cost of rent and everything in the market goes up with the tide. The middle class, and even moderately well off professionals, get a quality of life and pay CUT (in effect, since they don't get the raise). I disagree - a UBI means that anyone who's able to live frugally may, at any time, retire. This gives enormous bargaining power to workers, as if the pay is too low then they can say "fuck it, I'm moving to <insert rural ghost town>, buying an abandoned house for $1, and living off my UBI". Not only does this put downward pressure on rent, it also encourages jobs to be more available in rural areas, as people will move to there for lower costs of living instead of moving away because it's unaffordable due to lack of jobs/UBI. Your wage is not determined by your productivity, it's determined by your bargaining power (your Best Alternative To Negotiated Agreement (BATNA) being the main one, but how unique your skills are determines your employer's BATNA). In other words, employers will employ you for any amount that still lets them make a profit off of your labour, but they will pay you the least they can get away with paying without you walking away. Some people literally can't afford to walk away, and they're the people who are paid dogshit wages. A UBI would let them walk away until their job calls them with a good offer.

mjevans 5y ago
Bargaining power fixes: Provide 'employment transition' by banking vacation carry over and get paid out when someone quits (optionally paid at the otherwise normal rate over time until depleted). Medicare for all with dental, vision and hearing - Single payer healthcare so that it isn't tied to a job, and helps return those out of work to work if our medical tech is sufficient. Make current US job benefits (vacation, sick pay, medical co-coverage) paid by taxes on corporations proportional to the pay for workers. Hourly workers should pro-rated with E.G. 20 hours of work for 'full benefits'. Also require hourly jobs to be scheduled in advance in some fair way that doesn't de-facto allow an abusive employer to have someone on call without paying them to be on call. The socialization of the vacation benefits also benefits corporations, since they would no longer hold those assets on their balance sheet as liabilities.
- Broken_Hippo 5y ago
  You could simply just stop treating vacation time as a perk or something you earn and, instead, simply give everyone paid vacation time. It doesn't have to be expensive: Norway collects taxes in a way that means you basically fund your own vacation: The downside is that you don't get that money if you didn't work last year, but there is a push to fix that. And I completely agree about scheduling: Employers should pay extra for changing a schedule in too short of a frame. Yes, this also means that everyone might get paid extra for releasing the schedule too late. I'd also add that everyone should have the right to work contracts. At a minimum, it'd state how to break the contract (fair notice, both sides, exceptions apply), rate of pay, number of hours expected (even for salary workers), and a start date.
Aerroon 5y ago
Somebody has to actually create all the stuff that people consume. UBI doesn't address that point. If these employers have to pay more to hire people, then prices will go up. When you have 200 million apples and 300 million people then UBI won't get the 100 million people an apple. Growing more apples does. And this same process would apply to virtually every good and service people consume. You might be right on rent, but that would probably exacerbate the price of goods problem further since there would be fewer people willing to do those jobs. UBI will only make people better off if more goods and services are produced as a result of it. Or alternatively, if goods and services are somehow moved from excessive consumption by the rich to the poor. But that last part is probably a drop in the bucket. Rich people still eat the same amount of food for dinner.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

tasogare 5y ago

> The cost of rent and everything in the market goes up with the tide. Exactly. This is what happened in France with the allocations logement (APL). Since the state was now funding a part (let's say 150€ over 400€ rent), what the landlords did was rising the rents by about the same amount. Results were net negatives: 1. Purchasing power of student didn't change 2. Rent augmented for everyone in the segment of housing that could be rent to students 3. Rich people get richer

dagw 5y ago
This complaint is actually part of the core economic thesis put forwards in the lyrics of the most popular punk song in Sweden[1], written in the mid 70s. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vvrUrBuQQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5vvrUrBuQQ
Qwertious 5y ago
Rent gouging only works if people are limited in where they rent. If you don't need a job, then you don't need to live near your job and can instead live wherever the rent is cheapest. Which is usually a small shrinking country town where people are leaving because there are no jobs.
- imtringued 5y ago
  Housing is often a sellers market. If you can find a place where it isn't you get to save money.

diob 5y ago

But in places where they've ignored the nay sayers and decided to raise minimum wage, the "likely real effect" you mention didn't happen. In fact, small businesses did great because poor people (who actually spend money) could afford to go to them. I'm surprised this argument against raising it still lingers after real life studies have been done.

gehsty 5y ago

So rent control / social housing (like council houses in the UK) combined with ubi?

faitswulff 5y ago

The boats don't have to change spots in order to stay afloat.

solatic 5y ago

> The level of the tide rises Precisely. People are trying to treat the symptoms of inflation by throwing money (UBI) at the problem. The problem isn't that people don't have enough money; the problem is that the cost of living has become less and less affordable. The solution is to reduce the cost of living by offering people basic affordable alternatives - not giving people more money to afford housing, but helping the price of housing reduce over time (a process that, if it were entirely handled by the private sector, we would call commoditization and hail as a success). Not by giving people more money to spend on K-12 education, but by making K-12 education free (wait... we already did that one). If we give people more money (Pell grants for university degrees), the price just spirals out of control. Treat the problem, not the symptoms.

MiguelX413 5y ago

They don't rise though, at least not the same amount, as proven by places with much higher wages where things are not more expensive as a result.

konschubert 5y ago

Inflation won’t cancel out UBI because there are many people on this earth who spend more than UBI today. In other words, the money spent every month in the US economy is much more than the money UBI would add. It’s true that there would be inflation but it would not cancel the full effect.

commandlinefan 5y ago

> The middle class, and even moderately well off professionals, get a quality of life and pay CUT I can't help but wonder if that isn't the actual goal.

micropresident 5y ago

Except that basic income is a flat amount, and taxes are progressive and %. Thus, there's an equilibrium point. It doesn't cause some runaway inflation. It would also allow removing the minimum wage which would increase available low-skilled jobs.