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The visual effects industry is structured around a bidding process that cements VFX studio compensation before film production has begun. However, film is a col

The visual effects industry is structured around a bidding process that cements VFX studio compensation before film production has begun. However, film is a collaborative medium with financial and production risks with decisions often pushed to a later date "to be solved in post". That post production VFX stage has grown in size, grown in the types of production solutions provided, all without additions or modifications of compensation. They simple get to keep the ongoing contract, regardless if doing so bankrupts the VFX studio. Which it often does. The production digital artists receive their contractual compensation, they get to keep their jobs, but the production becomes 14 hour days, 6.5 days a week for 6 to 9 months. Meanwhile, this is taking place on all 6-12 productions flowing though the VFX studio at the same time. At some unknown time, the bank and investors simple say "no more" and the studio implodes. This is the concrete reality of the VFX industry. This is how people do not get paid.

dagmx 5y ago
That seems like a huge jump from the "VFX industry being based on not paying people" Yes, there are some bad business practices that lead to companies going out of business. There are lots of successful VFX studios too though. That's true of any business. I'm unsure how this means that VFX in specific is based around not paying people.
- dylan604 5y ago
  There are tons of VFX houses that have been the receipent or the giver of Trump-esque renegotiations. At the beginning, everyone agrees to terms. At the end, something somewhere happens which means no more money (if the money actually existed to begin with), and people get screwed. Most VFX houses I've been in/around have paid on hourly rates, so the artists get paid. If the producer bringing the work to the VFX reneges, then the VFX house eats it (or sues, or something). However, if your a contract artist and did the work expecting to be paid at end of project, you tend to be left hold the bag since the VFX studio didn't get paid then the contractors don't get paid.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    So in the last decade, how many VFX studios have gone under leaving people holding the unpaid bag? It's been a long time since DD 2.0 and R&H. I'd hardly take the edge case of the industry (not exclusive to VFX) and say that it's representative of the norm.
- bsenftner 5y ago
  > There are lots of successful VFX studios For relatively short time periods. Only Weta and ILM are able to get equity in their projects, and that is largely due to their owners being the filmmakers themselves. In the end, it is a work for hire industry, with no equity participation, yet carrying significant risk that tends to sooner or later blow up at least once, taking the entire studio with it.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    That's a completely different goal post now though from saying the industry is based on not paying people. The majority of film roles, even outside of VFX, has no equity. Equity is the exception not the norm. Other VFX studios like Imageworks have been doing pretty well without equity. I don't believe Weta or ILM get any equity in their projects though. At least, the majority of their projects are work for hire. Either way, this is a another jump from the initial statement that the VFX industry is based on not paying people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- HillRat 5y ago
  If I have the market power through mono- or oligopsony to force my vendors to sign fixed-price contracts for variable-scope work, I guarantee you they aren’t getting paid for a lot of that scope, whether that comes out of their bottom line or their employees’ lives. Hypothetical me is going to improve my own bottom line by pushing scope (“just fix it in post!”) to the part of the budget that’s contractually-guaranteed to stay fixed.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    Contract negotiations have changed quite a bit since/due to the R&H bankruptcy thankfully. Still not great, but the power dynamic has become a little more balanced in terms of accounting for variable scope work.
- Aditya_Garg 5y ago
  It’s not the norm, but this type of stuff happens more in this industry (labor of love) than in other industries. Read up on the sausage party scandal https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-unpaid- https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-u... overtime-1201838425/amp/ The animators were even reluctant to raise objections over fears of being blacklisted.
  - dagmx 5y ago
    I definitely acknowledge it happens. I guess this goes back to the initial post saying that the VFX industry is based around on not paying people. That implies norm. I know there's been several issues throughout the years at various studios, but those have largely been exceptions not the norm thankfully.
    - bsenftner 5y ago
      Perhaps the correct line is the VFX industry is based around paying studios less than the expense of doing the job, after the job balloons post contract negotiations and post VFX vendor's ability to re-negotiate. More words, but same net effect.
  - Cullinet 5y ago
    I didn't know that Sausage Party was a movie : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_Party the Working Conditions section covers the controversy over pay and conditions. edit the article you refer to without any Google AMP nonsense (sorry for not catching that before) https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-unpaid-overtime-1201838425/ https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-u...
xondono 5y ago
Not to be dismissive, but how does that differ from any other consulting/work for hire job? Most projects in embedded devices are exactly the same. - a price tag is fixed by negotiation around estimates - more and more stuff is pushed to firmware and software - everyone works way more than they should to deliver in time
- aprdm 5y ago
  I think it's different because the embedded systems clients are usually not as deadline driven as the movie industry are. You have deliverables basically every week that you need to show to the client for approval, and, if not good enough, then re-iterate. Embedded systems usually the scope doesn't change nearly as much after the SoW, where movie is very creative/subjective and it can change every single week. I worked in both industries for ~5 years, in VFX now

dagmx 5y ago

That seems like a huge jump from the "VFX industry being based on not paying people" Yes, there are some bad business practices that lead to companies going out of business. There are lots of successful VFX studios too though. That's true of any business. I'm unsure how this means that VFX in specific is based around not paying people.

dylan604 5y ago
There are tons of VFX houses that have been the receipent or the giver of Trump-esque renegotiations. At the beginning, everyone agrees to terms. At the end, something somewhere happens which means no more money (if the money actually existed to begin with), and people get screwed. Most VFX houses I've been in/around have paid on hourly rates, so the artists get paid. If the producer bringing the work to the VFX reneges, then the VFX house eats it (or sues, or something). However, if your a contract artist and did the work expecting to be paid at end of project, you tend to be left hold the bag since the VFX studio didn't get paid then the contractors don't get paid.
- dagmx 5y ago
  So in the last decade, how many VFX studios have gone under leaving people holding the unpaid bag? It's been a long time since DD 2.0 and R&H. I'd hardly take the edge case of the industry (not exclusive to VFX) and say that it's representative of the norm.
bsenftner 5y ago
> There are lots of successful VFX studios For relatively short time periods. Only Weta and ILM are able to get equity in their projects, and that is largely due to their owners being the filmmakers themselves. In the end, it is a work for hire industry, with no equity participation, yet carrying significant risk that tends to sooner or later blow up at least once, taking the entire studio with it.
- dagmx 5y ago
  That's a completely different goal post now though from saying the industry is based on not paying people. The majority of film roles, even outside of VFX, has no equity. Equity is the exception not the norm. Other VFX studios like Imageworks have been doing pretty well without equity. I don't believe Weta or ILM get any equity in their projects though. At least, the majority of their projects are work for hire. Either way, this is a another jump from the initial statement that the VFX industry is based on not paying people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
HillRat 5y ago
If I have the market power through mono- or oligopsony to force my vendors to sign fixed-price contracts for variable-scope work, I guarantee you they aren’t getting paid for a lot of that scope, whether that comes out of their bottom line or their employees’ lives. Hypothetical me is going to improve my own bottom line by pushing scope (“just fix it in post!”) to the part of the budget that’s contractually-guaranteed to stay fixed.
- dagmx 5y ago
  Contract negotiations have changed quite a bit since/due to the R&H bankruptcy thankfully. Still not great, but the power dynamic has become a little more balanced in terms of accounting for variable scope work.
Aditya_Garg 5y ago
It’s not the norm, but this type of stuff happens more in this industry (labor of love) than in other industries. Read up on the sausage party scandal https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-unpaid- https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-u... overtime-1201838425/amp/ The animators were even reluctant to raise objections over fears of being blacklisted.
- dagmx 5y ago
  I definitely acknowledge it happens. I guess this goes back to the initial post saying that the VFX industry is based around on not paying people. That implies norm. I know there's been several issues throughout the years at various studios, but those have largely been exceptions not the norm thankfully.
  - bsenftner 5y ago
    Perhaps the correct line is the VFX industry is based around paying studios less than the expense of doing the job, after the job balloons post contract negotiations and post VFX vendor's ability to re-negotiate. More words, but same net effect.
- Cullinet 5y ago
  I didn't know that Sausage Party was a movie : https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_Party https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sausage_Party the Working Conditions section covers the controversy over pay and conditions. edit the article you refer to without any Google AMP nonsense (sorry for not catching that before) https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-unpaid-overtime-1201838425/ https://variety.com/2016/film/news/sausage-party-animators-u...

xondono 5y ago

Not to be dismissive, but how does that differ from any other consulting/work for hire job? Most projects in embedded devices are exactly the same. - a price tag is fixed by negotiation around estimates - more and more stuff is pushed to firmware and software - everyone works way more than they should to deliver in time

aprdm 5y ago
I think it's different because the embedded systems clients are usually not as deadline driven as the movie industry are. You have deliverables basically every week that you need to show to the client for approval, and, if not good enough, then re-iterate. Embedded systems usually the scope doesn't change nearly as much after the SoW, where movie is very creative/subjective and it can change every single week. I worked in both industries for ~5 years, in VFX now