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Stuff like this drives the push for things like vouchers. I’m lucky to be able to send my kids to a good private school. We chose it after a tour and discussion

Stuff like this drives the push for things like vouchers. I’m lucky to be able to send my kids to a good private school. We chose it after a tour and discussion with the headmaster about exactly how it operates. The teachers as a group research and plan curriculum. They coordinate across grade levels and determine how to roll out changes in the most effective way possible for students and parents as well. They rolled out common core math over 5 years with great success well before it was forced on public schools. In other words, they let the people who have studied to be professional educators make decisions about the best way to…educate. There’s no school board, no state level involvement, no federal disruption every time there’s an election. And it’s fantastic. I see this work and my first instinct is that EVERYONE should have an option like this, not just the people who can afford it. For that reason, I support some type of voucher program that could achieve these goals. Yet for some reason in the US this is a political hot button, which doesn’t make any sense to me. Currently, the only people who have all the options are people who can afford them out of pocket. Everybody else is stuck with either public school or home school and home school is on the rise.

tw04 5y ago
Well right, because they can kick out students who are disruptive and make them the public school systems problem. When the public school system becomes insolvent, what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? We hope someone else has a solution? Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Why should disruptive students be tolerated in public school classrooms? Does the disruptive student actually get an education simply by virtue of being in the classroom? He certainly drags his peers down, but how much is he actually educated in the process, and is that worth the harm he does his peers? > Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle. I could as easily say they are a way out of the cradle to prison cycle for many at risk youths.
- mlyle 5y ago
  Perhaps any voucher system could be calibrated to: A) allow some more students to go to private schools by providing a fraction of what would be spent on them, and B) increase remaining resources per-pupil in the public school system. Of course, it still takes thought to make sure that the public schools improve in this scenario, because they will also be fighting an adverse-selection headwind of being stuck with students from lower classes and those that the private schools don't want. But if you can shrink classes and cater classes to similar ability levels, I'd think this would win out.
  - bruce511 5y ago
    I'm not sure your math works. If the goal of vouchers is to take the total education budget, divide it by the number of students, then disperse the pot equally. In other words is it simply a case of $10 000 per child per year, so here's a voucher for 10k, go wherever you like? There are no extra resources here for underperforming schools - in fact there are likely fewer resources. Public shools won't get smaller though, they'll just merge together to create fewer schools, and the bad teachers will go away. And perhaps therein lies the root of the resistance to vouchers. It starts to measure school, and by extension, teacher quality. And that's not a rabbit hole teacher unions want to go down.
    - mlyle 5y ago
      > In other words is it simply a case of $10 000 per child per year, so here's a voucher for 10k, go wherever you like? When vouchers were proposed in California in 1993, it was to be half the amount spent by the state on each child for public education. In 2000, it was to be $4000/year, when the state spent about $7000/year per student. Of course, there's the big existing population in private schools that would also have been eligible for vouchers-- about 7%-- so these amounts probably still would drive down per-pupil spending in public schools. You'd need to roughly double private school enrollment to "break even" in per-pupil spending. I favor something like 20-33%-- that might reasonably be expected to both make it significantly easier for parents to send their children to private schools and increase resources per student in public schools.
- nitrogen 5y ago
  Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle. You don't solve a problem by making it worse. Making smart and/or motivated kids stay in the same classrooms as disruptive and demotivated kids just turns the motivated kids into more disruptive and demotivated kids. Right now it looks like we can choose between some people getting educated, and almost nobody getting educated because of the disruptive environment.
- pdonis 5y ago
  > what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? You want the brutal truth? Yes, that's exactly the solution. Want an education? Learn to behave in class. And note that this is the only workable answer even in public school systems that aren't insolvent. No amount of money can educate a kid who refuses to be educated.
  - pjerem 5y ago
    > Learn to behave in class. Who’s the job to teach those kids how to behave in class ? Their parents ? And what do you do if their parents don’t care (which is the common case with those kids) ? What do you do if the student has undiagnosed mental illness ? Entire generations of misbehaved children were in fact suffering ADHD. How do you manage a misbehaving children that is bullied every single morning when he comes to school ? Not educating a kid is ruining its life and, since you speak with « brutal truth », yeah, just sentence those students to jail for life already, at least they’ll not have to struggle with hunger and homelessness during years.
    - concordDance 5y ago
      > just sentence those students to jail for life already Seems inefficient, exhile them to Somalia instead.
    - Khaine 5y ago
      The problem is keeping those kids in school ruins the education of all of the kids in that class. How is it fair to damage the potential of so many kids, because one kid is disruptive, and their parents don’t care.
      - pjerem 5y ago
        The options here are not binary. There are other possibilities than keeping them ruining the class or abandoning them. A lot of countries have dedicated schools for those children, so they damage nothing around them and can be treated individually. And in lot of cases, since it requires removing them from families where their problems comes, it’s a breadth of fresh air for them.
- caseysoftware 5y ago
  > When the public school system becomes insolvent, what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? Are they getting an education now? According to most metrics - including this article - more and more students are passed without meeting the requirements for their grade level.
throwaway894345 5y ago
> Yet for some reason in the US this is a political hot button, which doesn’t make any sense to me. I share in your bafflement. Charitably, perhaps they reason that parents will pick schools that are worse on average than public schools, but I suspect it is more of a “equality demands poor schooling regardless of class” with a side of “the state gets to determine the values your child is taught”.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  My understanding is that vouchers still put the most power in the parents about what school their children go to, when the parents themselves aren’t necessarily good judgements of what would make a good school. Additionally, tools that parents would use (how students are graded in standard tests) are opaque. There are even cases where private schools don’t have to disclose how well or poorly their students score, which means they can effectively present as being a great school without any proof, while public schools have to provide proof and therefore look worse as they can’t lie.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Fair enough, but my impression of lots of public schools is that they are abysmal and the few that aren’t are typically only available to rich people anyway (in practice, not principle) so the current system addresses neither overall quality of education nor inequality.
    - nicoburns 5y ago
      Yes, currently. But we should be looking to improve that system for everyone, not allowing a privileges few to opt out.
      - brightball 5y ago
        Wouldn’t a better system have more options with different approaches rather than a single lowest common denominator? Just from a scientific perspective, more experiments that are able to learn from each other and adapt things they see working elsewhere into their approach should naturally lead to constantly improving schools. A single lowest common denominator that nobody is allowed to escape from is doomed to failure by comparison.
TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
Forgive my ignorance, I’m from another land. What are vouchers in this context?
- throwawaysea 5y ago
  It’s about giving parents a voucher (like a gift card) to spend on a school. The idea is that instead of subjecting everyone to a one size fits all public school system, which can have various problems and inefficiencies, you give parents money that can only be spent on schools but let them choose which provider to spend it on (whether public or private or homeschooling or whatever). It introduces an element of competition between schools but also choice, and the ability for parents to seek out what is best for their child. For example: teacher union avoiding accountability via test scores? Switch schools. School policies not properly managing disruptive students? Switch schools. Curriculum not appropriate for your child? Switch schools.
- singlow 5y ago
  Usually a government program to give parents fixed annual tuition voucher which they can use to enroll their child at a private school. The voucher may cover part or all of the tuition at the private school and the parent would pay the remainder if there is one. It often goes under other monikers such as School Choice. Parents usually don't have much say as to which public school their child goes to, as it is assigned by address. These programs aim to let parents who are in the district of a poorly performing school to transfer their kids to a school they think will benefit them. Wealthier parents already have this option, but private schools are too expensive for even most middle class parents. It is often related to efforts to create charter schools which are essentially private schools funded by taxes but run by a commercial or non-profit management company. These schools are usually regulated similarly to other private schools, having fewer regulations than the public schools and not under any direct authority of elected officials.
- pianoben 5y ago
  "Vouchers" are effectively tuition money for a school of a parent's choice, funded by the government. They would in theory allow parents to choose the "right" kind of schooling for their child, rather than having their child attend a school based on where they live. This system does not exist today, but there are many who would like to see it. Lots of people are fed up with what they perceive as the failings of public schools. Very few who advocate for vouchers seem to advocate for education funding in general - most seem to simply want their kids somewhere else. Historically, the push for vouchers is a right-wing, small-government kind of effort intended to further undermine the public school systems, and also to allow government funds to support religious education which, under the current system, is not permitted.
Jare 5y ago
Vouchers add power to parents, and we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem. Even worse: unlike policies, standards, regulations, boards, administrations, and rules, you can't change parents. Even worst: you can manipulate parents, and perverse incentives all but guarantee that evil people will be attracted to this opportunity.
- Thorrez 5y ago
  >we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem I'd be interested in seeing data showing this.
- 6f8986c3 5y ago
  > we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem. No. > Even worst: you can manipulate parents, and perverse incentives all but guarantee that evil people will be attracted to this opportunity. Of course, those evil people would never think of becoming teachers or professors in order to brainwash thousands of students over their careers. Because that would be, what, wrong and stuff?

tw04 5y ago

Well right, because they can kick out students who are disruptive and make them the public school systems problem. When the public school system becomes insolvent, what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? We hope someone else has a solution? Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle.

throwaway894345 5y ago
Why should disruptive students be tolerated in public school classrooms? Does the disruptive student actually get an education simply by virtue of being in the classroom? He certainly drags his peers down, but how much is he actually educated in the process, and is that worth the harm he does his peers? > Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle. I could as easily say they are a way out of the cradle to prison cycle for many at risk youths.
mlyle 5y ago
Perhaps any voucher system could be calibrated to: A) allow some more students to go to private schools by providing a fraction of what would be spent on them, and B) increase remaining resources per-pupil in the public school system. Of course, it still takes thought to make sure that the public schools improve in this scenario, because they will also be fighting an adverse-selection headwind of being stuck with students from lower classes and those that the private schools don't want. But if you can shrink classes and cater classes to similar ability levels, I'd think this would win out.
- bruce511 5y ago
  I'm not sure your math works. If the goal of vouchers is to take the total education budget, divide it by the number of students, then disperse the pot equally. In other words is it simply a case of $10 000 per child per year, so here's a voucher for 10k, go wherever you like? There are no extra resources here for underperforming schools - in fact there are likely fewer resources. Public shools won't get smaller though, they'll just merge together to create fewer schools, and the bad teachers will go away. And perhaps therein lies the root of the resistance to vouchers. It starts to measure school, and by extension, teacher quality. And that's not a rabbit hole teacher unions want to go down.
  - mlyle 5y ago
    > In other words is it simply a case of $10 000 per child per year, so here's a voucher for 10k, go wherever you like? When vouchers were proposed in California in 1993, it was to be half the amount spent by the state on each child for public education. In 2000, it was to be $4000/year, when the state spent about $7000/year per student. Of course, there's the big existing population in private schools that would also have been eligible for vouchers-- about 7%-- so these amounts probably still would drive down per-pupil spending in public schools. You'd need to roughly double private school enrollment to "break even" in per-pupil spending. I favor something like 20-33%-- that might reasonably be expected to both make it significantly easier for parents to send their children to private schools and increase resources per student in public schools.
nitrogen 5y ago
Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle. You don't solve a problem by making it worse. Making smart and/or motivated kids stay in the same classrooms as disruptive and demotivated kids just turns the motivated kids into more disruptive and demotivated kids. Right now it looks like we can choose between some people getting educated, and almost nobody getting educated because of the disruptive environment.
pdonis 5y ago
> what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? You want the brutal truth? Yes, that's exactly the solution. Want an education? Learn to behave in class. And note that this is the only workable answer even in public school systems that aren't insolvent. No amount of money can educate a kid who refuses to be educated.
- pjerem 5y ago
  > Learn to behave in class. Who’s the job to teach those kids how to behave in class ? Their parents ? And what do you do if their parents don’t care (which is the common case with those kids) ? What do you do if the student has undiagnosed mental illness ? Entire generations of misbehaved children were in fact suffering ADHD. How do you manage a misbehaving children that is bullied every single morning when he comes to school ? Not educating a kid is ruining its life and, since you speak with « brutal truth », yeah, just sentence those students to jail for life already, at least they’ll not have to struggle with hunger and homelessness during years.
  - concordDance 5y ago
    > just sentence those students to jail for life already Seems inefficient, exhile them to Somalia instead.
  - Khaine 5y ago
    The problem is keeping those kids in school ruins the education of all of the kids in that class. How is it fair to damage the potential of so many kids, because one kid is disruptive, and their parents don’t care.
    - pjerem 5y ago
      The options here are not binary. There are other possibilities than keeping them ruining the class or abandoning them. A lot of countries have dedicated schools for those children, so they damage nothing around them and can be treated individually. And in lot of cases, since it requires removing them from families where their problems comes, it’s a breadth of fresh air for them.
caseysoftware 5y ago
> When the public school system becomes insolvent, what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? Are they getting an education now? According to most metrics - including this article - more and more students are passed without meeting the requirements for their grade level.

throwaway894345 5y ago

> Yet for some reason in the US this is a political hot button, which doesn’t make any sense to me. I share in your bafflement. Charitably, perhaps they reason that parents will pick schools that are worse on average than public schools, but I suspect it is more of a “equality demands poor schooling regardless of class” with a side of “the state gets to determine the values your child is taught”.

SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
My understanding is that vouchers still put the most power in the parents about what school their children go to, when the parents themselves aren’t necessarily good judgements of what would make a good school. Additionally, tools that parents would use (how students are graded in standard tests) are opaque. There are even cases where private schools don’t have to disclose how well or poorly their students score, which means they can effectively present as being a great school without any proof, while public schools have to provide proof and therefore look worse as they can’t lie.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Fair enough, but my impression of lots of public schools is that they are abysmal and the few that aren’t are typically only available to rich people anyway (in practice, not principle) so the current system addresses neither overall quality of education nor inequality.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    Yes, currently. But we should be looking to improve that system for everyone, not allowing a privileges few to opt out.
    - brightball 5y ago
      Wouldn’t a better system have more options with different approaches rather than a single lowest common denominator? Just from a scientific perspective, more experiments that are able to learn from each other and adapt things they see working elsewhere into their approach should naturally lead to constantly improving schools. A single lowest common denominator that nobody is allowed to escape from is doomed to failure by comparison.

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago

Forgive my ignorance, I’m from another land. What are vouchers in this context?

throwawaysea 5y ago
It’s about giving parents a voucher (like a gift card) to spend on a school. The idea is that instead of subjecting everyone to a one size fits all public school system, which can have various problems and inefficiencies, you give parents money that can only be spent on schools but let them choose which provider to spend it on (whether public or private or homeschooling or whatever). It introduces an element of competition between schools but also choice, and the ability for parents to seek out what is best for their child. For example: teacher union avoiding accountability via test scores? Switch schools. School policies not properly managing disruptive students? Switch schools. Curriculum not appropriate for your child? Switch schools.
singlow 5y ago
Usually a government program to give parents fixed annual tuition voucher which they can use to enroll their child at a private school. The voucher may cover part or all of the tuition at the private school and the parent would pay the remainder if there is one. It often goes under other monikers such as School Choice. Parents usually don't have much say as to which public school their child goes to, as it is assigned by address. These programs aim to let parents who are in the district of a poorly performing school to transfer their kids to a school they think will benefit them. Wealthier parents already have this option, but private schools are too expensive for even most middle class parents. It is often related to efforts to create charter schools which are essentially private schools funded by taxes but run by a commercial or non-profit management company. These schools are usually regulated similarly to other private schools, having fewer regulations than the public schools and not under any direct authority of elected officials.
pianoben 5y ago
"Vouchers" are effectively tuition money for a school of a parent's choice, funded by the government. They would in theory allow parents to choose the "right" kind of schooling for their child, rather than having their child attend a school based on where they live. This system does not exist today, but there are many who would like to see it. Lots of people are fed up with what they perceive as the failings of public schools. Very few who advocate for vouchers seem to advocate for education funding in general - most seem to simply want their kids somewhere else. Historically, the push for vouchers is a right-wing, small-government kind of effort intended to further undermine the public school systems, and also to allow government funds to support religious education which, under the current system, is not permitted.

Jare 5y ago

Vouchers add power to parents, and we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem. Even worse: unlike policies, standards, regulations, boards, administrations, and rules, you can't change parents. Even worst: you can manipulate parents, and perverse incentives all but guarantee that evil people will be attracted to this opportunity.

Thorrez 5y ago
>we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem I'd be interested in seeing data showing this.
6f8986c3 5y ago
> we've (I think) already agreed that parents are a large part of the problem. No. > Even worst: you can manipulate parents, and perverse incentives all but guarantee that evil people will be attracted to this opportunity. Of course, those evil people would never think of becoming teachers or professors in order to brainwash thousands of students over their careers. Because that would be, what, wrong and stuff?