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Regarding the first quote, it’s not the opposite of what you’d expect if teaching was a low-status profession that could only attract weaker, lower paid laboure

Regarding the first quote, it’s not the opposite of what you’d expect if teaching was a low-status profession that could only attract weaker, lower paid labourers. Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. If teaching is low-status it is no wonder that education standards are low and thus educational achievement is low, as they note in the article. The alternative is failing most students and having a labour supply problem. In my country, Australia, you occasionally see news articles describing some shockingly bad final year high school scores (ATAR scores) being accepted into teaching degrees. Unfortunately, the fact that this happens further entrenches teaching as low status and puts downward pressure on the minimum bar for ATAR scores. Remarkable, but unsurprising, that the Heritage foundation then suggests _lowering_ wages even further. You’ll get even worse candidates heading for teaching and they may even be able to next time show the same 9% positive bump.

6f8986c3 5y ago
> Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. As a teacher, you have no control over your classroom. Disruptive students that destroy everybody else's learning environment? Too bad. No Child Left Behind! Wait, that's the old slogan, what's the new one? Equity Uber Alles? Equity Macht Frei? It changes so often, I keep forgetting. Assaulted by the kids? Suck it up, we don't want to be sued! Better to have a battered teacher -- the Unions will keep them in check -- than a lawyered-up parent. I have seen this first-hand. Want to actually teach kids things they need to learn to succeed? This is the wrong job for you. I know a lot of motivated folks that went into teaching, with big salary bonuses, full scholarships for their degrees, everything. None of them lasted more than four years. Public education in the US selects for Dolores Umbridge, and against Remis Lupin.
- thomastjeffery 5y ago
  > You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. I sincerely doubt that. Having a teacher who isn't struggling financially would be a huge improvement.
  - z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
    You're failing, like most of the crowd here on venture capital forum, is thinking that money is the most and only important factor.
  - kickout 5y ago
    OP is correct. double your salary at your job, but have to take verbal abuse and berated from your 'boss' and see how that paycheck affects your life
    - hypnoscripto 5y ago
      If your salary is high enough that you can save some money then you aren’t required to put up with bullshit in order to keep eating food.
      - bnj 5y ago
        Do you mean that by saving money people can leave the profession sooner or at least move to a school with more favorable working conditions? If so, maybe you’ve hit on a kernel of truth: we can’t risk paying teachers enough that they’d have the financial security to leave a bad work situation.
        throwaway894345 5y ago
        Am I the only one who thinks “we should pay teachers more so they can afford a new profession because public education is horrible” is the wrong takeaway? Like, why not fix public education (e.g., more teacher autonomy) or at least support some voucher program so more teachers can be private school teachers?
- kickout 5y ago
  Although an insanely complex topic, this basically sums up my views (spouse is a 6-8 teacher). Teachers have no autonomy to teach (which discipline is apart of).
- syops 5y ago
  Want to actually teach kids things they need to learn to succeed? This is the wrong job for you. I teach at a community college and for years I've told newcomers to profession that one thing this job is not about is teaching.
  - Leparamour 5y ago
    >and for years I've told newcomers to profession that one thing this job is not about is teaching. So, what is about then?
    - syops 5y ago
      High passing rate and minimal number of student complaints. No one in administration cares if the high passing rate is because standards were lowered. All they care about is that more than x% pass.
      - Leparamour 5y ago
        Another sad instance of Strahern's adaptation of Goodhart's law[1]: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure" [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- brightball 5y ago
  Stuff like this drives the push for things like vouchers. I’m lucky to be able to send my kids to a good private school. We chose it after a tour and discussion with the headmaster about exactly how it operates. The teachers as a group research and plan curriculum. They coordinate across grade levels and determine how to roll out changes in the most effective way possible for students and parents as well. They rolled out common core math over 5 years with great success well before it was forced on public schools. In other words, they let the people who have studied to be professional educators make decisions about the best way to…educate. There’s no school board, no state level involvement, no federal disruption every time there’s an election. And it’s fantastic. I see this work and my first instinct is that EVERYONE should have an option like this, not just the people who can afford it. For that reason, I support some type of voucher program that could achieve these goals. Yet for some reason in the US this is a political hot button, which doesn’t make any sense to me. Currently, the only people who have all the options are people who can afford them out of pocket. Everybody else is stuck with either public school or home school and home school is on the rise.
  - tw04 5y ago
    Well right, because they can kick out students who are disruptive and make them the public school systems problem. When the public school system becomes insolvent, what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? We hope someone else has a solution? Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      Why should disruptive students be tolerated in public school classrooms? Does the disruptive student actually get an education simply by virtue of being in the classroom? He certainly drags his peers down, but how much is he actually educated in the process, and is that worth the harm he does his peers? > Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle. I could as easily say they are a way out of the cradle to prison cycle for many at risk youths.
    - mlyle 5y ago
- Aerroon 5y ago
  And ultimately, the teacher doesn't get to choose what they teach either. Somebody else decides that and gives teachers a long list of things that the students have to know.
- dr_dshiv 5y ago
  I am curious whether there are any systems that let parents choose teachers within a school — and let teachers admit students they will take. So they can make more if they are in demand — and that students that are "problems" will result in greater income for the teachers that take them. A kind of "choice-based" market system within a school.

6f8986c3 5y ago

> Teaching doesn’t attract highly paid workers because in addition to a big pay cut those workers would be considering likely worse working conditions as well. You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. As a teacher, you have no control over your classroom. Disruptive students that destroy everybody else's learning environment? Too bad. No Child Left Behind! Wait, that's the old slogan, what's the new one? Equity Uber Alles? Equity Macht Frei? It changes so often, I keep forgetting. Assaulted by the kids? Suck it up, we don't want to be sued! Better to have a battered teacher -- the Unions will keep them in check -- than a lawyered-up parent. I have seen this first-hand. Want to actually teach kids things they need to learn to succeed? This is the wrong job for you. I know a lot of motivated folks that went into teaching, with big salary bonuses, full scholarships for their degrees, everything. None of them lasted more than four years. Public education in the US selects for Dolores Umbridge, and against Remis Lupin.

thomastjeffery 5y ago
> You could double teacher pay and it wouldn't make a lick of difference. I sincerely doubt that. Having a teacher who isn't struggling financially would be a huge improvement.
- z3ncyberpunk 5y ago
  You're failing, like most of the crowd here on venture capital forum, is thinking that money is the most and only important factor.
- kickout 5y ago
  OP is correct. double your salary at your job, but have to take verbal abuse and berated from your 'boss' and see how that paycheck affects your life
  - hypnoscripto 5y ago
    If your salary is high enough that you can save some money then you aren’t required to put up with bullshit in order to keep eating food.
    - bnj 5y ago
      Do you mean that by saving money people can leave the profession sooner or at least move to a school with more favorable working conditions? If so, maybe you’ve hit on a kernel of truth: we can’t risk paying teachers enough that they’d have the financial security to leave a bad work situation.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        Am I the only one who thinks “we should pay teachers more so they can afford a new profession because public education is horrible” is the wrong takeaway? Like, why not fix public education (e.g., more teacher autonomy) or at least support some voucher program so more teachers can be private school teachers?
kickout 5y ago
Although an insanely complex topic, this basically sums up my views (spouse is a 6-8 teacher). Teachers have no autonomy to teach (which discipline is apart of).
syops 5y ago
Want to actually teach kids things they need to learn to succeed? This is the wrong job for you. I teach at a community college and for years I've told newcomers to profession that one thing this job is not about is teaching.
- Leparamour 5y ago
  >and for years I've told newcomers to profession that one thing this job is not about is teaching. So, what is about then?
  - syops 5y ago
    High passing rate and minimal number of student complaints. No one in administration cares if the high passing rate is because standards were lowered. All they care about is that more than x% pass.
    - Leparamour 5y ago
      Another sad instance of Strahern's adaptation of Goodhart's law[1]: "When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure" [1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart%27s_law
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
brightball 5y ago
Stuff like this drives the push for things like vouchers. I’m lucky to be able to send my kids to a good private school. We chose it after a tour and discussion with the headmaster about exactly how it operates. The teachers as a group research and plan curriculum. They coordinate across grade levels and determine how to roll out changes in the most effective way possible for students and parents as well. They rolled out common core math over 5 years with great success well before it was forced on public schools. In other words, they let the people who have studied to be professional educators make decisions about the best way to…educate. There’s no school board, no state level involvement, no federal disruption every time there’s an election. And it’s fantastic. I see this work and my first instinct is that EVERYONE should have an option like this, not just the people who can afford it. For that reason, I support some type of voucher program that could achieve these goals. Yet for some reason in the US this is a political hot button, which doesn’t make any sense to me. Currently, the only people who have all the options are people who can afford them out of pocket. Everybody else is stuck with either public school or home school and home school is on the rise.
- tw04 5y ago
  Well right, because they can kick out students who are disruptive and make them the public school systems problem. When the public school system becomes insolvent, what’s your solution for those students? They just don’t get an education? We hope someone else has a solution? Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Why should disruptive students be tolerated in public school classrooms? Does the disruptive student actually get an education simply by virtue of being in the classroom? He certainly drags his peers down, but how much is he actually educated in the process, and is that worth the harm he does his peers? > Vouchers are a great way to permanently cement the cradle to prison cycle. I could as easily say they are a way out of the cradle to prison cycle for many at risk youths.
  - mlyle 5y ago
Aerroon 5y ago
And ultimately, the teacher doesn't get to choose what they teach either. Somebody else decides that and gives teachers a long list of things that the students have to know.
dr_dshiv 5y ago
I am curious whether there are any systems that let parents choose teachers within a school — and let teachers admit students they will take. So they can make more if they are in demand — and that students that are "problems" will result in greater income for the teachers that take them. A kind of "choice-based" market system within a school.