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Nothing is going to work while everything is paced by year. In 7th grade, in the fall you are taught X, so if you miss it the only solution is to take it next t

Nothing is going to work while everything is paced by year. In 7th grade, in the fall you are taught X, so if you miss it the only solution is to take it next time: next fall with the next year’s 7th graders. In an ideal infinitely funded world, if you took 20% longer to learn X, you’d just go slower, not be left behind.

jimbokun 5y ago
How does a teacher instruct a class where every single student is learning something different at a given time, based on their progress up to that point?
- analog31 5y ago
  This is a good point, but it highlights the fact that classroom education is a compromise -- economic and social -- and not a moral standard. Thus I think we should at least be conscious of its limitations, even if we can't immediately do anything about them.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  Sorry, I tried to be clear that that scenario is an unrealistic ideal. Ideal in the sense of a spherical frictionless student in a vacuum with infinite funding as well as ideal in the sense of good. In that case one solution would be more teachers than students. Unless/until we figure out a feasible way to make progress not the same pace for everyone, progress will have to be the same pace for everyone. Colleges have a decent middle ground where if you fail this quarter, there are decent odds your class will be offered again before next year, especially for the earlier classes that really need stricter sequencing. But that’s only really feasible when you have that many students (not to mention tuition $$$).
- rahimnathwani 5y ago
  It is hard! But the folks making decisions about education in California (including the authors of the California Math Framework 2021) believe they'll achieve better outcomes that way, than they will by grouping students based on their progress in the subject. I heard recently from a 6th grade math teacher who has students who are 1, 2, 3 and even 4 grades behind. Imagine orchestrating a single class in which you're teaching some children about adding single-digit numbers, and others about long division.
- Negitivefrags 5y ago
  I went to a tiny mixed age school and basically each kid worked on workbooks at their own pace. The older kids helped out the younger ones and the teacher walked around the class and talked to each kid to help them along with thier work if they got stuck. There wasn’t any lecture style teaching with the teacher explaining concepts to the whole class at once. We all worked on one subject at a time, but we were all at different points in it. When my family moved and I left that school I was multiple years ahead of where I was supposed to be in several subjects and normal school was very boring after that.
- adolph 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education I guess in Montessori every single student isn't learning something different, but each one is often in a unique state of learning and development. The guide gives lessons in small groups, less than 6. Each kid gets a new lesson every few days and spends the remainder of their time "doing their work" (practicing their lessons and turning the results into the guide, doing small group research projects, etc.). The kid is encouraged to ask others for help understanding the lesson and to mentor others who are working on a lesson the kid knows. Once the guide observes the kid succeeding at the lesson, the kid is invited to the next lesson.
tedd4u 5y ago
A great deal of research has gone into just this concept, often called "mastery-based learning." Sal Khan is one well-known proponent (look for the requisite TED talk).
WalterBright 5y ago
> In 7th grade, in the fall you are taught X, so if you miss it the only solution is to take it next time In my experience in elementary school, 3rd grade material is repeated ad nauseum in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th grade. Plenty of time to get it. (Being an Air Force brat, I attended 3 different elementary schools, even one in Germany run by the military. All the same.)
Aerroon 5y ago
You could just study using your textbook and workbook. A lot of material relies on what you previously studied in some way. You should be able to learn the things that you missed with your experience and textbook. Nowadays you also have the internet that can fill those gaps. If a student wants to learn, then there are many opportunities. But students usually don't want to.
- 6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
  That doesn’t get to the student incentive though. If you feel like you’re already going to fail, you may as well give up until next time. But if you’d progress continually, giving up makes less sense.

jimbokun 5y ago

How does a teacher instruct a class where every single student is learning something different at a given time, based on their progress up to that point?

analog31 5y ago
This is a good point, but it highlights the fact that classroom education is a compromise -- economic and social -- and not a moral standard. Thus I think we should at least be conscious of its limitations, even if we can't immediately do anything about them.
6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
Sorry, I tried to be clear that that scenario is an unrealistic ideal. Ideal in the sense of a spherical frictionless student in a vacuum with infinite funding as well as ideal in the sense of good. In that case one solution would be more teachers than students. Unless/until we figure out a feasible way to make progress not the same pace for everyone, progress will have to be the same pace for everyone. Colleges have a decent middle ground where if you fail this quarter, there are decent odds your class will be offered again before next year, especially for the earlier classes that really need stricter sequencing. But that’s only really feasible when you have that many students (not to mention tuition $$$).
rahimnathwani 5y ago
It is hard! But the folks making decisions about education in California (including the authors of the California Math Framework 2021) believe they'll achieve better outcomes that way, than they will by grouping students based on their progress in the subject. I heard recently from a 6th grade math teacher who has students who are 1, 2, 3 and even 4 grades behind. Imagine orchestrating a single class in which you're teaching some children about adding single-digit numbers, and others about long division.
Negitivefrags 5y ago
I went to a tiny mixed age school and basically each kid worked on workbooks at their own pace. The older kids helped out the younger ones and the teacher walked around the class and talked to each kid to help them along with thier work if they got stuck. There wasn’t any lecture style teaching with the teacher explaining concepts to the whole class at once. We all worked on one subject at a time, but we were all at different points in it. When my family moved and I left that school I was multiple years ahead of where I was supposed to be in several subjects and normal school was very boring after that.
adolph 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montessori_education I guess in Montessori every single student isn't learning something different, but each one is often in a unique state of learning and development. The guide gives lessons in small groups, less than 6. Each kid gets a new lesson every few days and spends the remainder of their time "doing their work" (practicing their lessons and turning the results into the guide, doing small group research projects, etc.). The kid is encouraged to ask others for help understanding the lesson and to mentor others who are working on a lesson the kid knows. Once the guide observes the kid succeeding at the lesson, the kid is invited to the next lesson.

tedd4u 5y ago

A great deal of research has gone into just this concept, often called "mastery-based learning." Sal Khan is one well-known proponent (look for the requisite TED talk).

WalterBright 5y ago

> In 7th grade, in the fall you are taught X, so if you miss it the only solution is to take it next time In my experience in elementary school, 3rd grade material is repeated ad nauseum in 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th and 8th grade. Plenty of time to get it. (Being an Air Force brat, I attended 3 different elementary schools, even one in Germany run by the military. All the same.)

Aerroon 5y ago

You could just study using your textbook and workbook. A lot of material relies on what you previously studied in some way. You should be able to learn the things that you missed with your experience and textbook. Nowadays you also have the internet that can fill those gaps. If a student wants to learn, then there are many opportunities. But students usually don't want to.

6gvONxR4sf7o 5y ago
That doesn’t get to the student incentive though. If you feel like you’re already going to fail, you may as well give up until next time. But if you’d progress continually, giving up makes less sense.