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Wow. That's very dissapointing. Choosing to look the other way when someone uses sexist language is not a principled stand. We are all responsible for cultivati

Wow. That's very dissapointing. Choosing to look the other way when someone uses sexist language is not a principled stand. We are all responsible for cultivating a culture in software development that is inclusive. That means holding prominent people within the field to a high standard of professionalism. Not because we want to be thought police, but because no one should feel unwelcome in this field because of their gender, sexual orientatien, or skin color.

xdennis 5y ago
Everybody makes mistakes, but mobbing every unrelated thread isn't the solution to sexism. Calling him racist because he's not for defunding the police is even worse.
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oauea 5y ago
The US government actively kills many people in other countries. Should we start holding every American personally responsible? Am I sharing a forum with a bunch of horrible murderers? Or can we accept that just because a person, organization, or government that you support does horrible things, that does not make you yourself a horrible person by default?
- birdyrooster 5y ago
  6 of one, half dozen of the other If we are all horrible by default then we have to hold each other accountable in relative terms. I think our association with murderers and shitty people makes us all horrible and we should accept that and try to become less so? It’s not that bad being bad, it’s just how it is.
- carbonguy 5y ago
  Nuance does not seem to be your strong suit, based on this and other comments, but I nevertheless feel compelled to ask whether you see no actual difference between: a) pointing out that a particular developer has a habit of expressing reactionary views (which, to make it extra clear for you, is all that OP did), and b) whatever it is you think happened? And, to address your questions, because hey why not - > The US government actively kills many people in other countries. Should we start holding every American personally responsible? This depends on whether you believe America is a representative democracy or not. Since I do believe this is mostly true, then yes, the American voting-age population does bear some measure of the responsibility for the crimes committed in its name, and I personally feel sick at heart and actively motivated to foster political change for this specific reason among others. > Am I sharing a forum with a bunch of horrible murderers? Probably not "a bunch" as I would define it, but I suspect that HN is large enough that there might be a murderer or two here. > [C]an we accept that just because a person, organization, or government that you support does horrible things, that does not make you yourself a horrible person by default? No, I can't accept that. If I hear somebody praising, say, Ted Bundy or the CIA to the skies, my takeaway from that is "geez, I don't want to be associated with this person." But then, I guess you did throw "horrible" in there, and benefit of the doubt being what it is, I wouldn't necessarily assume that this hypothetical person was "horrible" - I just wouldn't have a shred of interest in finding out more about them.
  - oauea 5y ago
    > Nuance does not seem to be your strong suit, based on this and other comments So you're starting off with personal attacks. Okay. > but I nevertheless feel compelled to ask whether you see no actual difference between: I am talking about everyone now condemning Kovarex for referencing this Uncle Bob person (who I had never heard of before, myself). Since now apparently Kovarex is a bad person for linking to some videos and talking about Uncle Bob's teachings, and since you said this: > No, I can't accept that. That makes you a horrible murderer. You are financing the murder of many people by paying your taxes. Or maybe you should reconsider that view?
1_player 5y ago
No. I will personally do my best to make everyone feel _welcome_ whatever their gender, sexual orientation or skin colour, but stop forcing people to take a political side, to make everything about politics, and that we always need to discuss the person instead of the topic at hand. No, I don't _have to_ "hold prominent people within the field to a high standard of professionalism." Don't force me to. There is a time and place to be offended. kovarex wasn't endorsing the Uncle Bob persona and everything he stands for, guilt by association is definitely not the way to build a welcoming environment, when it's really just thin façade on a "with us or against us" dictatorship.
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xdennis 5y ago

Everybody makes mistakes, but mobbing every unrelated thread isn't the solution to sexism. Calling him racist because he's not for defunding the police is even worse.

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oauea 5y ago

The US government actively kills many people in other countries. Should we start holding every American personally responsible? Am I sharing a forum with a bunch of horrible murderers? Or can we accept that just because a person, organization, or government that you support does horrible things, that does not make you yourself a horrible person by default?

birdyrooster 5y ago
6 of one, half dozen of the other If we are all horrible by default then we have to hold each other accountable in relative terms. I think our association with murderers and shitty people makes us all horrible and we should accept that and try to become less so? It’s not that bad being bad, it’s just how it is.
carbonguy 5y ago
Nuance does not seem to be your strong suit, based on this and other comments, but I nevertheless feel compelled to ask whether you see no actual difference between: a) pointing out that a particular developer has a habit of expressing reactionary views (which, to make it extra clear for you, is all that OP did), and b) whatever it is you think happened? And, to address your questions, because hey why not - > The US government actively kills many people in other countries. Should we start holding every American personally responsible? This depends on whether you believe America is a representative democracy or not. Since I do believe this is mostly true, then yes, the American voting-age population does bear some measure of the responsibility for the crimes committed in its name, and I personally feel sick at heart and actively motivated to foster political change for this specific reason among others. > Am I sharing a forum with a bunch of horrible murderers? Probably not "a bunch" as I would define it, but I suspect that HN is large enough that there might be a murderer or two here. > [C]an we accept that just because a person, organization, or government that you support does horrible things, that does not make you yourself a horrible person by default? No, I can't accept that. If I hear somebody praising, say, Ted Bundy or the CIA to the skies, my takeaway from that is "geez, I don't want to be associated with this person." But then, I guess you did throw "horrible" in there, and benefit of the doubt being what it is, I wouldn't necessarily assume that this hypothetical person was "horrible" - I just wouldn't have a shred of interest in finding out more about them.
- oauea 5y ago
  > Nuance does not seem to be your strong suit, based on this and other comments So you're starting off with personal attacks. Okay. > but I nevertheless feel compelled to ask whether you see no actual difference between: I am talking about everyone now condemning Kovarex for referencing this Uncle Bob person (who I had never heard of before, myself). Since now apparently Kovarex is a bad person for linking to some videos and talking about Uncle Bob's teachings, and since you said this: > No, I can't accept that. That makes you a horrible murderer. You are financing the murder of many people by paying your taxes. Or maybe you should reconsider that view?

1_player 5y ago

No. I will personally do my best to make everyone feel _welcome_ whatever their gender, sexual orientation or skin colour, but stop forcing people to take a political side, to make everything about politics, and that we always need to discuss the person instead of the topic at hand. No, I don't _have to_ "hold prominent people within the field to a high standard of professionalism." Don't force me to. There is a time and place to be offended. kovarex wasn't endorsing the Uncle Bob persona and everything he stands for, guilt by association is definitely not the way to build a welcoming environment, when it's really just thin façade on a "with us or against us" dictatorship.

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