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Study: A quarter of adults don’t want children – and they’re still happy
- onion2k 5y agoYou have to wonder if this is new, or if society has been pressuring 25% of people in to having kids they didn't really want until recently.
- Analemma_ 5y agoOne of those thoughts which haunts me at night is the possibility that the "natural" rate of wanting children is too low to sustain a population, and so manipulation/coercion is required in order to survive as a species. What then?
- frockington1 5y agoOpen up the borders to developing nations who haven't figured that out yet
- BitwiseFool 5y agoRealistically the government will just increase immigration to sustain growth. In a long view of time, the fecund segment of the population will outgrow the segment that has very few children and things will return to normal.
- lbotos 5y agolike, this will sound very emo of me, but why does our species need to survive? What if our species got smaller in the next 100 years? Is that bad?
- BitwiseFool 5y agoThere's a difference between our species surviving and our species having a sustainable population. I personally think it's critical for the global population to contract but the only ethical way to do so is to try for lower birthrates across the world.
- betterunix2 5y agoUntil recently societies could only allow a small number of people to voluntarily not have children because death was so common. A society that could not produce enough children would eventually find itself lacking an adequate labor force to produce food or enough soldiers to defend against invasions. Individual happiness was less than a tertiary concern for most of human history; society needed people to reproduce and cultural expectations developed around that need. Our high-tech, modern world is very different from the historical norm.
- mkl95 5y ago75% of adults want children - and they're somehow happy
- mudil 5y agoIt's very questionable that happiness can be measured or even desirable. The focus on positive emotions is easy and attractive, and yet human beings need a range of emotions to have a fulfilling life.
- cortesoft 5y agoI agree. I find the obsession with happiness, and with the idea that happiness is the ultimate goal in life, to be problematic. Like you said, happiness is a part of a fulfilling life, but it is not everything.
- chongli 5y agoHappiness has more than one definition. The common definition refers to people's immediate emotional state: feeling happy. Happiness is also used in many other contexts and can include times of pain, crying, etc. Life satisfaction, flourishing, overall well-being. One example I frequently mention is running. Running can be extremely painful, physically exhausting, and mentally draining. Yet runners will frequently describe their runs using word happiness. Why is that? Because there is more to happiness than just feeling good.
- rchaud 5y agoNot to mention that happiness is a flow, not a stock. My parents were delighted with me ages 0-10. If you polled them again 10 years later, they'd have a very different response.
- mindcrime 5y agoThis headline makes it sound like that ("not wanting children") should be considered surprising or something. WTH? Not sure why not wanting children should have anything in particular to do with being "happy" (whatever that means).
- DenverCode 5y agoWe have zero interest in children and this is the first time I"m seeing that I am expected to be unhappy. Guess I'm screwed.
- NegativeLatency 5y agoNot sure if this is sarcasm but there are plenty of organizations where you can volunteer and have a meaningful impact on a kids life.
- DenverCode 5y agoYes, it was sarcasm - sorry. I am perfectly happy and don't plan on ever having kids. >there are plenty of organizations where you can volunteer and have a meaningful impact on a kids life. Absolutely. I've been teaching for learn to skate programs at ice arenas in the area for years and it's been absolutely amazing. I've found that a lot of people link not wanting to have kids with disliking children all-together and that couldn't be further from the truth with us.
- silicon2401 5y agoThis assumes that interacting with or impacting children is necessary for happiness; there's no need for that to be universally true.
- crazygringo 5y agoI'd say it's definitely "conventional wisdom" that having children is a big part of overall life happiness. Not saying whether that's good or bad or right or wrong, but it is definitely a common assumption. So that's the context in which this can be "considered surprising."
- neilwilson 5y agoA quarter of adults don't want children, but they will still expect the children of the other 75% to produce sufficient surplus for them to consume in retirement. They may very well find that doesn't happen. Social contracts work both ways. If you don't want children, make sure you are the best aunt/uncle in the world.
- mjburgess 5y agoThat seems quite a peculiar view, that you pay for retirement by raising children. Many have retirement savings, and so on, that are merely investments on time they've worked. That work has also created the opportunities for the next generation to occupy. The idea that there is some obligation to reproduce is a little antique, and very much out of keeping with the environmental impact (an environmental social contract) of increasing population sizes.
- neilwilson 5y ago"The idea that there is some obligation to reproduce is a little antique" You don't have the obligation to reproduce, and the next generation has no obligation to work and produce a surplus to feed you. Instead they can stop work on Tuesday when they have made enough for themselves. Good luck eating your dollars. You can no more save for a retirement in real terms than you can put on a sweater in August to save heat for January. Pensions are always a current production issue - how much of the production is reserved for those not currently involved in its production. If you haven't added to the production capacity of the future, what right do you believe you have to draw from it?
- thephyber 5y ago> Good luck eating your dollars I think I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are doing a terrible job at it and it assumes that people in this hypothetical future do not participate in a similar market to the one that exists today. People work for dollars because they use those dollars for the other things they need. Pension dollars are fungible with all other dollars, so the producer doesn’t know if they stop producing on Tuesday if the pensioners will go hungry or their family will.
- baconator123 5y agoThis is kinda weird of a topic...i don't think any parent would not want their children happy
- Exuma 5y agoThis is about the happiness of child-free adults
- newsbinator 5y agoWhy is wanting children the default state? You should have good reasons for wanting something that costs 18 years and a million dollars. Not good reasons for not wanting it.
- TylerE 5y agoBecause, given evolution, and that we have survived as a species up til now, reproduction is a thing that normally happens.
- drewcon 5y agoIt’s the default state because humans are living animals with a biological imperative to reproduce. That doesn’t mean you have to, but it shouldn’t be surprising that it’s widely considered normal.
- NegativeLatency 5y agoIf you don’t want children then you might not have any offspring, who could potentially share your view on not having children
- betterunix2 5y agoYou are probably joking, but in fact this was exactly the situation with some of the early Christian sects -- they practiced strict celibacy, and as a result they did not survive long.
- newsbinator 5y agoThat's pretty much the premise for the movie Idiocracy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBvIweCIgwk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBvIweCIgwk
- xyzal 5y agoGiven all of one's ancestors up to the lowly amoeba decided to reproduce, one might think living things are somehow predisposed for it.
- david-cako 5y ago
- throwawaygal7 5y agoThis is probably an overestimate right, since they did not randomly sample but instead had voluntary responses. they indicate in the analysis that the child free group were more left leaning, and I'd Imagine that group might also be more likely to answer surveys
- unknown_error 5y agoI didn't know that lefties were more likely to answer surveys. Cite, or just a rationale please?
- HKH2 5y agoThey tend to score higher on agreeableness.
- unknown_error 5y agoAre you saying that people only take surveys they find agreeable? Wouldn't some portion of folks want to share their dissenting opinion? The Right certainly has no shortage of talking heads and loudmouths...
- HKH2 5y agoI'm referring to the Big Five personality trait. I thought it was common knowledge on HN. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_Five_personality_traits https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreeableness https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreeableness It doesn't seem controversial to say that if a survey is presented relatively apolitically, someone who scores higher on agreeableness is more likely to be willing to participate in it.
- unknown_error 5y ago> It doesn't seem controversial to say that if a survey is presented relatively apolitically, someone who scores higher on agreeableness is more likely to be willing to participate in it. This is the part that seems dubious to me. One, nothing is apolitical anymore. Two, why is it given that people who score higher on agreeableness more likely to answer surveys? If the internet has taught us anything, it's that it's far easier to rile up responses from people who disagree with you.
- yellow03 5y agoI don't think anti-natalists will exist much longer post-birth control.
- myfavoritedog 5y agoIt’s a perfectly logical statement. Not sure why the downvotes. As we decrease pressures to reproduce, only those who have a surfeit of pressure will continue to reproduce. Unless we solve human aging, that means that resisting reproduction will mean self-elimination from the gene pool.
- BitwiseFool 5y agoDon't discount how many people regret not having children later in life. I'm not saying people have to have children to feel happy, but there is a non-negligible number of men and women who get to middle age and feel regret that they were not able to start a family. But by then it is almost always too late. Edit: It's easy to look over at parents struggling with raising toddlers and think "I'm glad I don't have to do that", but once those children grow up and have lives of their own the level of fulfillment and joy those parents feel is impossible to describe to a non-parent.
- cortic 5y agoThe grass will always be greener where you are not standing. But don't discount how many people regret having children later in life. There are a great many disappointments, heartaches, and estranged relationships in the world. Parents are heavily incentivized, both socially and psychologically to lie about this as well.
- CJefferson 5y agoI am willing to believe most parents love their children more than anything. However, I know a few parents who wish they'd never had children, and believe it ruined their lives. Of course, they would never say anything publicly, as it would crush their children. Most parents would never say "I wish I didn't have you" to their children, even if they believe it.
- BitwiseFool 5y agoThat's true, there's no denying that. There's no universal should/shouldn't advice when it comes to having children.
- betterunix2 5y agoAlso worth mentioning the other side -- people who regret not having children when they had the chance. Some older relatives told me they regretted their decision shortly after my son was born. I know another couple who waited until they were in their 40s to start trying to have kids (only to have a disappointing series of miscarriages). It is a hard decision. You have limited information, especially before your first child, and you are trying to make a decision that will impact your life for at least 20 years.
- _pgu 5y agoWhat in Babylon? To each his or her own. Love my two children, would literally die for them. At the same time i never thought that having children is essential for everybody to be more happy. Also i think there are so many people who would have been better off without them.
- endisneigh 5y agoI'd love to see a study that keeps track of these people at every decade, 30, 40, 50, etc. From talking to people, the relationship between children and happiness is very much parabolic, in that in the beginning it's great, then it's not so great, then kind of terrible, then not so bad again, then eventually amazing. I would imagine the relationship between happiness for those to be childfree to be more linear in that you're happy but it sort of just fades slowly away.
- react_burger38 5y agoBut here’s the thing: if you haven’t had kids yet you don’t know what you’re missing out on. Yes sometimes having kids is hard. But it also enables you to experience happiness and joy in ways that you previously haven’t been able to.
- toast0 5y agoAnd if you have kids and don't like it, too bad, you're honor bound to raise them for 20+ years. Committing to something for that long based on fear of missing out or peer pressure or lots of people do it and seem happy(ier?) is terrible judgement. Perhaps it's hard to describe the joys and hardships of parenthood, but it's possible to get most of the information even if you can't necessarily feel all the feels before you commit.
- BeFlatXIII 5y agoThat’s tautologically true and, IMO, one of the least-convincing arguments to persuade someone who is on the fence about becoming a parent to make a child.
- silicon2401 5y agoComments like this, whether pro-children or anti-children or any other blanket statement, are disingenuous imo. It should be written: > if I hadn’t had kids yet I wouldn't have known what I'd be missing out on. Yes sometimes having kids is hard. But it also enables me to experience happiness and joy in ways that I previously haven’t been able to. What's true for you is not true for everyone. Seems like having children was the right choice for you, but there are plenty of people who are miserable because of and outright dislike or hate their children. Yet that doesn't mean having children was wrong for you or that yours make your life miserable.
- PragmaticPulp 5y agoNot wanting children is fine. It’s a very personal and individualized choice. The best advice I can give on the topic is that it’s critically important to make a fully informed decision on the matter. Getting information from heavily biased sources toward having children (e.g. your grandparents who desperately want great-grandchildren) or being childfree (e.g. /r/childfree, the subreddit so miserable that even most childless parents can’t stand it) is not a recipe for making informed decisions. Likewise, evaluating child raising by only observing vocally unhappy parents in your social circle while ignoring the quietly happy parents is an easy mistake. If your only impression of child raising is changing diapers and listening to crying babies, you’re not getting the full picture. Nearly half of my parent friends thought they would never want children when they were younger. They’re all happy (and deliberate) parents now after revisiting their decisions as they grew older. And that’s fine. I also have some friends who have decided to never have children and stayed that way. And that’s fine too. Generally, ignore anyone who is militant that there is only one correct decision (having kids or being childfree). Ignore anyone who harbors hatred or loathing for children in general (kids are people too). And try to ignore the parents who try to make themselves out to be martyrs by talking endlessly about how challenging their kids are. You might have to seek out the happy parents in your social circles to ask what child raising is really like, because in my experience many of the happiest and most successful parents aren’t constantly talking about how happy they are with their decision in the same way that the /r/childfree zealots are actively spreading their message. You have to look a bit deeper to find the reality.
- DenverCode 5y agoI can't tell you how many times I've been immediately labeled as child hating because I don't want kids. We are always more than willing to have our friends bring their kids over - they keep the dog distracted :) - or bring them on hikes, etc. with us. I have also been volunteering at the local ice arenas teaching youth hockey and learn to skate programs and it's something I look forward to doing for a long time as it brings me happiness. The idea that I embody r/childfree because I don't want kids of my own is wild to me. There is, for sure, a cult-like approach from both extremes.
- 5y ago
- yoyohello13 5y ago> People who aren’t child-free felt substantially less warm toward child-free individuals. From reading some of the comments here, this line seems particularly true.
- unknown_error 5y agoPersonal internal desire for kids aside, there are good societal reasons not to have them. One, they are ridiculously expensive. If you're not middle class and above (what's left of it) they will cause a drastic plunge in quality of life as additional expenses, planned and unplanned, accumulate. Two, with climate change and geopolitical instability, it's both unfair to the kid to bring them into what is essentially a dying world, and also unfair to the world when their lives as an American (especially) will consume a disproportionate level of resources. Every new American adds to climate pollution and American imperialist bullying in the middle east and beyond. We're just adding more casualties in the wars to come. Three, with increasing automation and wealth concentration, social mobility is likely going to decrease even further. They will likely end up poorer and prospect-less than their parents. The USA is becoming a more feudal society where only corporate elites have worth and the growing underclass is just for exploitation. It's already bad enough for my generation, why would I want to make it worse for the next?
- ketamine__ 5y agoClimate change and pollution is not going to really effect children born now. The AQI of most large and small American cities is still quite low. College may become incredibly expensive. I think if it happens parents could invest in an ETF instead and provide their children with investment income while they pursue other opportunities.
- unknown_error 5y ago> Climate change and pollution is not going to really effect children born now. The AQI of most large and small American cities is still quite low. I'm not sure what AQI means in this context. Air Quality Index? I don't think anyone's arguing that to be the primary societal impact from climate change (not the same way that smog would be). It's more the cascading effects from extreme weather, drought, food & water shortages, sea level rise, wildfires, and the resulting refugeeism and geopolitical instability from all of that... to say nothing of the widespread impacts of the rest of the ecosystem (mostly harmful to existing biota, but can help a few species). If you think immigration is an issue now, wait until more of the Global South becomes even more impoverished and living on even more marginal land. > College may become incredibly expensive. I think if it happens parents could invest in an ETF instead and provide their children with investment income while they pursue other opportunities. But what other opportunities? Already college is barely a positive financial return in most majors. Right now the American economy is mostly services already, a large swatch of that in tech or finance. Either you're in that field or there is not really a pathway to social mobility anymore. That's only going to worsen with increased automation and competition from China, India, a resurgent Russia, what have you. And layer on top of that the waning of American power both as a sovereign, domestically, and as a hegemon globally, our kids -- with or without college -- will have far fewer opportunities than our parents or us, ourselves. Especially when you couple that with the looming myriad crises that come when you combine that perfect storm of climate change, economic polarization, and a general increase towards authoritarianism. There will be more "have-nots" than ever, sharing ever-smaller crumbs.
- mgolawala 5y agoI am surprised the effect of Pets isn't studied or mentioned more. Anecdotally, I have seen how Pets can work as a substitute for the biological drive to nurture and care for something. Pets can be "Kids-lite" for many.
- dqpb 5y agoThis is a fun game: - A quarter of adults don't want to learn math - and they're still happy - A quarter of adults don't want to exercise - and they're still happy - A quarter of adults don't want to explore the world - and they're still happy Sometimes you don't appreciate what you have until you have it.
- kangnkodos 5y agoThere's no mention of the ages of the people responding to the survey. I know several people who said they planned to never have children when they were younger, and then changed their minds when they were older.
- BrandoElFollito 5y agoI have children and I love them. We lived is a wealthy,safe,easy place and country, they will be well educated. There are times when I think what my life would have neen without them. Very, very different. With pluses and minuses vs. what I have today but I can easily imagine a world without them. This is to say that one can have all kind of philosophical theories on how it is with/without children and both are great, but once you chose a path it is over so it does not help to reimagine your life in the other case, except for some fun.